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      06-21-2020, 07:36 PM   #1
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BMW M2 CS faster than a 718 GT4 at Hockenheim

Please read the blow from Pistonhead


https://www.pistonheads.com/news/gen...20Smart%20List
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      06-22-2020, 01:36 AM   #2
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Given they're separated by just a fraction of a second - 1:54.8 for the BMW, 1:55 for the Porsche - it's no surprise to find them so evenly matched around the lap. The M2, for example, achieves a peak speed of 249km/h down the back straight - the GT4 hits 250. The Cayman is perhaps more composed in quicker turns, the 2 Series claiming a little back in the slower ones. They're interesting to compare, even if we must concede the time the BMW will make up time by having automatic shifts rather than manual ones - what difference might that make to a lap?
Relevant section for everyone's reference.
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      06-23-2020, 02:20 PM   #3
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Mr. DeMuro just reviewed the 718 GT4. His DougScore only puts it 1 point higher than the M2C, but it's almost twice as expensive. While I would much rather be in a GT4 for exclusivity and status, the value just isn't there. I also don't see how Mr. DeMuro gave the GT4 a 10 for "fun factor" when you can't do donuts in it and will be even more anal about not damaging it.

My DougScore, comparing both cars directly to each other, which Doug doesn't do, gives gt4 64 and m2c 72.

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      06-23-2020, 06:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Mr. DeMuro just reviewed the 718 GT4. His DougScore only puts it 1 point higher than the M2C, but it's almost twice as expensive. While I would much rather be in a GT4 for exclusivity and status, the value just isn't there. I also don't see how Mr. DeMuro gave the GT4 a 10 for "fun factor" when you can't do donuts in it and will be even more anal about not damaging it.

My DougScore, comparing both cars directly to each other, which Doug doesn't do, gives gt4 64 and m2c 72.

[img]
View post on imgur.com
[/img]
I loved my M2C but no offense, a GT4 will ALWAYS be more fun that any BMW on sale today, even the best M2. Porsche's are simply on another level and then the GT cars are even higher. One's mid engined, one's front engined. One is naturally aspirated with a high redline and the other is turbocharged. One is based on a basic platform shared with cars and SUV's and the other has their own dedicated platform. One weighs under 3000lbs, the other at 3400. You get the point.

The GT4 is about a pure tactile driving experience full of sensations through every device of input, as well as a lightweight chassis and are track cars before street.

As for value, its a Porsche, not a Hyundai.
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      06-23-2020, 07:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Mr. DeMuro just reviewed the 718 GT4. His DougScore only puts it 1 point higher than the M2C, but it's almost twice as expensive. While I would much rather be in a GT4 for exclusivity and status, the value just isn't there. I also don't see how Mr. DeMuro gave the GT4 a 10 for "fun factor" when you can't do donuts in it and will be even more anal about not damaging it.

My DougScore, comparing both cars directly to each other, which Doug doesn't do, gives gt4 64 and m2c 72.

[img]
View post on imgur.com
[/img]
I loved my M2C but no offense, a GT4 will ALWAYS be more fun that any BMW on sale today, even the best M2. Porsche's are simply on another level and then the GT cars are even higher. One's mid engined, one's front engined. One is naturally aspirated with a high redline and the other is turbocharged. One is based on a basic platform shared with cars and SUV's and the other has their own dedicated platform. One weighs under 3000lbs, the other at 3400. You get the point.

The GT4 is about a pure tactile driving experience full of sensations through every device of input, as well as a lightweight chassis and are track cars before street.

As for value, its a Porsche, not a Hyundai.
No matter how we spin it, kudos must go to BMW engineers for achieving it with a 4 seat car
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      07-06-2020, 02:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
I loved my M2C but no offense, a GT4 will ALWAYS be more fun that any BMW on sale today, even the best M2. Porsche's are simply on another level and then the GT cars are even higher. One's mid engined, one's front engined. One is naturally aspirated with a high redline and the other is turbocharged. One is based on a basic platform shared with cars and SUV's and the other has their own dedicated platform. One weighs under 3000lbs, the other at 3400. You get the point.

The GT4 is about a pure tactile driving experience full of sensations through every device of input, as well as a lightweight chassis and are track cars before street.

As for value, its a Porsche, not a Hyundai.
Yes, I agree with all of this. I would like to add a few crumbs for the M2 S55, flashing a Stage 1 tune launches the M2 into over 500 hp and over 500 lb ft of torque with no other modifications. Maybe the Porsche NA engine is old school and smooth but try and get that kind of neck snapping torque from that NA engine, it won't be cheap.
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      07-07-2020, 12:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
I loved my M2C but no offense, a GT4 will ALWAYS be more fun that any BMW on sale today, even the best M2. Porsche's are simply on another level and then the GT cars are even higher. One's mid engined, one's front engined. One is naturally aspirated with a high redline and the other is turbocharged. One is based on a basic platform shared with cars and SUV's and the other has their own dedicated platform. One weighs under 3000lbs, the other at 3400. You get the point.

The GT4 is about a pure tactile driving experience full of sensations through every device of input, as well as a lightweight chassis and are track cars before street.

As for value, its a Porsche, not a Hyundai.
And the crazy part is that car that shares parts with SUVs and is based on a "basic" platform outperforms the GT Porsche. It also is substantially more practical, holds twice as many people, and costs about a third less. Don't get me wrong, I would still have the GT4, but there's like a $40K price difference when optioned out.
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      07-15-2020, 10:28 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
I loved my M2C but no offense, a GT4 will ALWAYS be more fun that any BMW on sale today, even the best M2. Porsche's are simply on another level and then the GT cars are even higher.

GT4 more fun than any BMW on sale today? Seriously?

I have a mate who drives the shit out of his 1M and has a GT4 Mk1 too, the guy can drive and does so. He prefers the 1M, by a margin, GT4 Mk1 way too long gearing(Mk2 same story, look up the car tests), no playfulness on the backend with those wide tyres and 'no torque' down low and middle revs.

Another mate sold his GT3 Clubsport(2010 bought new) because of all of the above. Too wide tyres to make it step out in the dry and have some adrenalin fun with it PLUS the speeds had to be absurd to get some 'now I'm driving fast' vs 1M/M2/C type of cars.

So 'fun' is a really specific thing for people and for many people 'fun' means something else in a car.

'Porsches' are on another level of what? Maybe only build quality but for the rest be more specific please.

Some GT's are and yes a GT4 is more than awesome, so is a GT3RS/GT2RS( Manthey spec is my favourite car today on sale) but so are a few M models.

And yes turn in etc is something special in many GT3/4s but so is our M2/C. do'nt bring M2/C down. The //M LSD we have is a real lsd. No brake intrusive vectoring thingy Porsche uses on ALL roadgoing cars incl the GT stuff.....(many people do not know that specific brake lsd tech thingy on all Porsches)

Depending on situations M2C turns in equally or 'better' than any Cayman this side of a GT4. And sometimes 'better'than a GT4 with 'no weight' on the front end. Look it up in serious carmags like Sportauto from Germany.


So, FUN is not just being the more razorsharp car the GT4 is vs our M2C which it is.

My idea of FUN is also being to control a car in the wet and dry in a manner you want, with throttle. Understeer is so far away in real life in an M2/C.
According to (ex) Porsche guys above it's further away than their(ex) Porsches. And those guys drive their cars hard on Zandvoort/Assen/Nordschleife and Papenburg etc(and so do I lol)


Still: I love the Porsche brand for their GT2/3/4. The rest not so much. Sorry

Cheers
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      07-15-2020, 10:46 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
GT4 more fun than any BMW on sale today? Seriously?

I have a mate who drives the shit out of his 1M and has a GT4 Mk1 too, the guy can drive and does so. He prefers the 1M, by a margin, GT4 Mk1 way too long gearing(Mk2 same story, look up the car tests), no playfulness on the backend with those wide tyres and 'no torque' down low and middle revs.

Another mate sold his GT3 Clubsport(2010 bought new) because of all of the above. Too wide tyres to make it step out in the dry and have some adrenalin fun with it PLUS the speeds had to be absurd to get some 'now I'm driving fast' vs 1M/M2/C type of cars.

So 'fun' is a really specific thing for people and for many people 'fun' means something else in a car.

'Porsches' are on another level of what? Maybe only build quality but for the rest be more specific please.

Some GT's are and yes a GT4 is more than awesome, so is a GT3RS/GT2RS( Manthey spec is my favourite car today on sale) but so are a few M models.

And yes turn in etc is something special in many GT3/4s but so is our M2/C. do'nt bring M2/C down. The //M LSD we have is a real lsd. No brake intrusive vectoring thingy Porsche uses on ALL roadgoing cars incl the GT stuff.....(many people do not know that specific brake lsd tech thingy on all Porsches)

Depending on situations M2C turns in equally or 'better' than any Cayman this side of a GT4. And sometimes 'better'than a GT4 with 'no weight' on the front end. Look it up in serious carmags like Sportauto from Germany.


So, FUN is not just being the more razorsharp car the GT4 is vs our M2C which it is.

My idea of FUN is also being to control a car in the wet and dry in a manner you want, with throttle. Understeer is so far away in real life in an M2/C.
According to (ex) Porsche guys above it's further away than their(ex) Porsches. And those guys drive their cars hard on Zandvoort/Assen/Nordschleife and Papenburg etc(and so do I lol)


Still: I love the Porsche brand for their GT2/3/4. The rest not so much. Sorry

Cheers
Robin
Like I said in my post, I loved my M2C, the best and (in my opinion) only fun BMW on sale today, but in my experience of driving both the GT4 MK1 and my M2C on track, the experience is a world's of differences and I prefer the GT4. We can both pull as many examples of people we know who went from BMW to Porsche or vice versa but remember at the end of the day its all opinion. In the end, I still stand by my statement, the Porsche GT cars are simply on another level, they are precision tools with tactile feedback coming through every area of input and are just completely rewarding to drive, not saying the M2C isn't, because it certainly is, especially compared to the F8X to which its based on, but there is a reason why the GT4 receives critical acclaim and holds its value very well. In the end, I am just glad both brands are still selling great driver's cars, and I can't wait until my father-in-law gets his 718 GT4 so I can drive it and try it around a track.
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      07-15-2020, 10:59 AM   #10
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GT4 Mk1 and Mk2 are great but not flawless.
Way too long gearing and not the 'real engine' the GT3 RS has are two of them.
And for me that makes it a no go....
I think the Cayman GTS 4.0 is maybe even the more fun car(less wide tyres, more playable)

In a world where everything was possible I'd order an M2CS in a heartbeat AND a 991.2 GT3RS (or GT2RS), GT4 not so much....

But anyway congrats to your Father in Law. Great car off course.

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      07-15-2020, 11:01 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Mr. DeMuro just reviewed the 718 GT4. His DougScore only puts it 1 point higher than the M2C, but it's almost twice as expensive. While I would much rather be in a GT4 for exclusivity and status, the value just isn't there. I also don't see how Mr. DeMuro gave the GT4 a 10 for "fun factor" when you can't do donuts in it and will be even more anal about not damaging it.

My DougScore, comparing both cars directly to each other, which Doug doesn't do, gives gt4 64 and m2c 72.

Doug score lol.....like that is objective measuring.
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      07-15-2020, 11:07 AM   #12
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As much as I love my 718, I think Porsche screwed up by succumbing to the media and offering a flat 6 that doesn't really perform better than the previous turbo flat four. i believe the 718 GTS did 1:56 at Hockenheim with 50 less HP. If the GT4 had been the more punchy flat 4, there would be a much better result. JMO, the new flat six doesn't sound all that hot either.
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      07-15-2020, 11:27 AM   #13
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Doug score lol.....like that is objective measuring.
About as objective as a M2 owner redoing his M2 score and posting it on an M2 forum lol.
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      07-15-2020, 11:29 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
I loved my M2C but no offense, a GT4 will ALWAYS be more fun that any BMW on sale today, even the best M2. Porsche's are simply on another level and then the GT cars are even higher. One's mid engined, one's front engined. One is naturally aspirated with a high redline and the other is turbocharged. One is based on a basic platform shared with cars and SUV's and the other has their own dedicated platform. One weighs under 3000lbs, the other at 3400. You get the point.

The GT4 is about a pure tactile driving experience full of sensations through every device of input, as well as a lightweight chassis and are track cars before street.

As for value, its a Porsche, not a Hyundai.
I feel this exact way comparing the Porsche to my Exige, it's just not even the same sport. The Porsche is so heavy, moves terribly, brakes terribly, gives no feedback compared to the Exige, and isn't nearly as fun to drive.

It's all the level you're playing at, and if you're chasing fun or numbers.
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      07-15-2020, 11:31 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
I feel this exact way comparing the Porsche to my Exige, it's just not even the same sport. The Porsche is so heavy, moves terribly, brakes terribly, gives no feedback compared to the Exige, and isn't nearly as fun to drive.

It's all the level you're playing at, and if you're chasing fun or numbers.
Agree, and I'm jealous of your Lotus, its been a while since I've driven on but they are a hoot!
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      07-16-2020, 03:06 PM   #16
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As much as I love my 718, I think Porsche screwed up by succumbing to the media and offering a flat 6 that doesn't really perform better than the previous turbo flat four. i believe the 718 GTS did 1:56 at Hockenheim with 50 less HP. If the GT4 had been the more punchy flat 4, there would be a much better result. JMO, the new flat six doesn't sound all that hot either.
I think it sounds pretty good even in stock form (especially the US version). However, an aftermarket system completely transforms it. This sound is a good enough reason for me to pick one:


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      07-17-2020, 09:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
I feel this exact way comparing the Porsche to my Exige, it's just not even the same sport. The Porsche is so heavy, moves terribly, brakes terribly, gives no feedback compared to the Exige, and isn't nearly as fun to drive.

It's all the level you're playing at, and if you're chasing fun or numbers.
Visual

I wanted to present this video for a few reasons.

1. I think this guy produces some the best car reviews on the internet. His commentary is well thought out, insightful and uncensored. Video editing is excellent.

2. It was his video on the M2C that actually first got me 'turned on' to the M2C. Since that time, appears he has become an admitted Porsche 'fanboy.' I guess it is inevitable if you are a sport car enthusiast

3. Despite all his acclaim for the GT4, like you, he seems to hold everything in the shadow of his Exige. I have never driven an Exige. Not sure I have even ever seen one on the road? Seems universally agreed upon that it is a special 'drivers car.'

Personally, I absolutely love the GT4. However, it is just a bit too track focused for me. I also love the M2C, but it is a real heifer that cannot hide its mass when it comes to handling and related performance. The 718 CGTS finds the sweet spot in being the perfect sport car for ME.

///AVM




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      07-21-2020, 03:01 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
Please read the blow from Pistonhead


https://www.pistonheads.com/news/gen...20Smart%20List
If you look at both times that were ran by Christian Gebhardt, they are as follows.

718 GT4 1:53.9 (this is also referenced in the m2CS vs CS racing link)
M2 CS 1:54.8 (M2 CS also ran a 1:55.8 in a previous Hock GP run with SportAuto)

Funny how they seemed to cherry pick the time done by a different driver (Uwe S) vs the time Christian ran for both. One could easily call the M2 CS time a 1:55.8 by that same methodology.

So realistically the GT4 is still a good bit faster as a 1 second delta is pretty big here.

To add, the GT4 was a manual and the M2 CS a DCT so I think once the GT4 gets PDK it is probably 2+ seconds faster here. Really not that close overall.

The M2 CS is heavy, but it makes up for that with a very underrated engine and lots of torque.

The GT4 is a precision weapon with a very special engine and balance, poise and handling ability you cant find unless you move to something well into the 100K range or more. I much prefer an atmospheric engine and that glorious sound of the Flat 6 too.

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      07-21-2020, 04:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftkeylife View Post
If you look at both times that were ran by Christian Gebhardt, they are as follows.

718 GT4 1:53.9 (this is also referenced in the m2CS vs CS racing link)
M2 CS 1:54.8 (M2 CS also ran a 1:55.8 in a previous Hock GP run with SportAuto)

Funny how they seemed to cherry pick the time done by a different driver (Uwe S) vs the time Christian ran for both. One could easily call the M2 CS time a 1:55.8 by that same methodology.

So realistically the GT4 is still a good bit faster as a 1 second delta is pretty big here.

To add, the GT4 was a manual and the M2 CS a DCT so I think once the GT4 gets PDK it is probably 2+ seconds faster here. Really not that close overall.

The M2 CS is heavy, but it makes up for that with a very underrated engine and lots of torque.

The GT4 is a precision weapon with a very special engine and balance, poise and handling ability you cant find unless you move to something well into the 100K range or more. I much prefer an atmospheric engine and that glorious sound of the Flat 6 too.
I noted all of this as well. GT4 is faster with a stick. Crazy CS fanboys.
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      07-22-2020, 04:57 PM   #20
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And what objective metric would you like on something that is subjective by nature e.g. looks, sound, handling etc etc
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      07-22-2020, 06:55 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3t3p View Post
And what objective metric would you like on something that is subjective by nature e.g. looks, sound, handling etc etc
3t3p

Precisely!

Unless you are professional driver who gets paid to post lap times, the 'experience' of getting around the track far exceeds the 'time' it takes to turn the lap.

Thus, the 'subjective' pertains to 99.9% on this forum and those purchasing the GT4 vs M2CS. . . not Christian Gebhardt's lap times.

. . . and that does not even take into account the fact that those purchasing the M2CS and GT4 are going to spend the overwhelming majority of time on roadways . . . not the track.

///AVM
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      07-22-2020, 09:22 PM   #22
Leftkeylife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
3t3p

Precisely!

Unless you are professional driver who gets paid to post lap times, the 'experience' of getting around the track far exceeds the 'time' it takes to turn the lap.

Thus, the 'subjective' pertains to 99.9% on this forum and those purchasing the GT4 vs M2CS. . . not Christian Gebhardt's lap times.

. . . and that does not even take into account the fact that those purchasing the M2CS and GT4 are going to spend the overwhelming majority of time on roadways . . . not the track.

///AVM
Agree with all of this. Driving is subjective...just that some of those subjective things are more universally agreed by and large, such as, what handles well, what sounds great.
I do think the GT4 makes a great street car with a really nicely set up suspension (does anyone do this as well as they do?). On the track, well, this is where Porsches, especially GT cars shine and illuminate like no other and deliver thrills and rewarding experience along with blisteringly fast times in spades.

Last edited by Leftkeylife; 07-22-2020 at 09:41 PM..
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///AVM1742.00

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