BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
M2 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip > Heel toe

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-04-2020, 03:49 PM   #1
M2guru
Lieutenant
375
Rep
565
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2
Join Date: May 2017
Location: St. Paul MN

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2018 BMW M2  [10.00]
Heel toe

Would like to start practicing more but am feeling like without my wide shoes/hiking boots (i.e., with my driving shoes) I'll have even less success. Anyone have experience with different pedals than stock or perhaps I should use my heel and toe instead of trying to rotate my foot to use both sides of my right foot. I obviously need advice here and am looking for M2 specific suggestions. Thanks in advance!
Appreciate 0
      03-04-2020, 03:54 PM   #2
5.M0NSTER
Lieutenant Colonel
5.M0NSTER's Avatar
United_States
3354
Rep
1,823
Posts

Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Back in Michigan, GO BLUE!

iTrader: (0)

I would say you need to experiment. Pedal position is good, but different from other cars I've driven. The pedal spacing in my Mustang was better to be honest.

For me I anchor my big toe on the brake pedal and swing the heal out over the gas. Then rotate my foot to hit the gas with outside edge of my foot. But you need to practice. And practice in the shoes you drive in. Not anything special. It's going to take some time, but it's a skill worth learning. Take your time. It does take time.

Oh and practice on the street while you're daily driving. I tried on the track and failed miserably. Then I kept practicing and 2 years later I made it all work on the track. Be deliberate about it. See a corner? Make it a practice zone. No other way.
__________________
2017 BMW M2 German Spec
6MT, Driver's Package
--> SOLD
2018 Camaro SS 1LE. Because race car!

"Redline a day keeps the mechanics away"
Appreciate 1
M2guru374.50
      03-04-2020, 04:24 PM   #3
cncmastr
Colonel
cncmastr's Avatar
United_States
1569
Rep
2,401
Posts

Drives: E46 ZCP, F85, E70, G07
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Outside Atlanta

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2018 X5 M  [0.00]
2020 M2 CS  [0.00]
2005 BMW X5 4.8is  [0.00]
2006 BMW M3  [0.00]
In my experience, it's more big toe on the brake pedal, the right side of the brake pedal. And your pinky toes, the right side of your foot or throttling the gas.
__________________
Appreciate 1
M2guru374.50
      03-04-2020, 06:16 PM   #4
OG Shark
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
OG Shark's Avatar
4656
Rep
2,518
Posts


Drives: Angry
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Spring Branch, TX

iTrader: (5)

I have to blip the throttle with my heel in my OG M2. I have to do this with most street cars - usually need a more racing oriented pedal box for me to be able to roll my ankle and hit the throttle with the side of my foot. I find that both work just as well as the other for me - you might give it a try.
Appreciate 1
M2guru374.50
      03-05-2020, 08:28 AM   #5
clutchdj
Colonel
1852
Rep
2,384
Posts

Drives: a few cars
Join Date: May 2015
Location: NY

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M2guru View Post
Would like to start practicing more but am feeling like without my wide shoes/hiking boots (i.e., with my driving shoes) I'll have even less success. Anyone have experience with different pedals than stock or perhaps I should use my heel and toe instead of trying to rotate my foot to use both sides of my right foot. I obviously need advice here and am looking for M2 specific suggestions. Thanks in advance!

get shoes that will allow you to feel the pedals. in the 90's i used to drill on gas pedal extensions in my shit box vw's in order to increase the overall surface area of the go-pedal. It takes a lot of seat time but once you develop a rythem you will be able to heel toe anyting.

stock/current 3 pedal bmws imho have some of best spacing for heel toe out there. do not get discouraged it will just click one day.
Appreciate 1
M2guru374.50
      03-05-2020, 08:51 AM   #6
Conissah
Major
Conissah's Avatar
1575
Rep
1,049
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Charlotte, NC

iTrader: (1)

I wear my smallest most worn and comfortable Adidas I have, if I'm going to be doing any spirited driving. Helps me feel where the pedals are, and the sole is the same size as my foot, so no weird overhangs to worry about. I like to be able to feel the pedal through the sole.

I concur with the big toe on brake, although mine is moreso the VERY edge of the ball of my foot, right under my big toe. I plant that on the brake, and just blip my foot over on that point so that the right side of my shoe hits the accelerator. I do NOT physically rotate my foot and hit the pedal with my heel, it's just uncomfortable for me. Actually rotating your foot and using your heel may be the "safer" method, as my foot has definitely slipped off the brake before mid heel-toe.
Appreciate 1
M2guru374.50
      03-05-2020, 09:41 AM   #7
CTSean
First Lieutenant
323
Rep
392
Posts

Drives: LCI BSM MT M2
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: CT

iTrader: (1)

Agree with those here saying basically use the left side of your foot for brake, right side for throttle.

Here's a good video of it. You can see he does rotate his foot a bit (of some downshifts) just because the pedal separation in the NSX looks a little wide, but otherwise he's just rolling his foot onto the throttle.

Appreciate 2
      03-05-2020, 04:22 PM   #8
M2guru
Lieutenant
375
Rep
565
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2
Join Date: May 2017
Location: St. Paul MN

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2018 BMW M2  [10.00]
Thanks for all of the feedback guys! I appreciate it! In the video I noticed that he seemed to have a brake-without-hitting-the-gas-pedal position no the brake pedal and a second brake-with-the-intention-of-hitting-the-gas-pedal position. Does anyone else do that, too, or do you have one position on the brake pedal regardless of if you plan to blip the gas.

Second question, when do you release the clutch? I have heard/read that when you blip is when you release the clutch (which is earlier than I expected). So it seems that you're trying to rev the engine two ways:1) blip the throttle and 2) release the clutch. In other words, not waiting until the throttle brings the revs perfectly to match the point when you release the clutch.

Again - appreciate your insight!!
Appreciate 0
      03-05-2020, 05:48 PM   #9
clutchdj
Colonel
1852
Rep
2,384
Posts

Drives: a few cars
Join Date: May 2015
Location: NY

iTrader: (6)

Ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by M2guru View Post
Thanks for all of the feedback guys! I appreciate it! In the video I noticed that he seemed to have a brake-without-hitting-the-gas-pedal position no the brake pedal and a second brake-with-the-intention-of-hitting-the-gas-pedal position. Does anyone else do that, too, or do you have one position on the brake pedal regardless of if you plan to blip the gas.

>Yes when drivers don’t intend to shift gears after slowing down (in this case), you will see a more firm/stabbing on the brake pedal - all without engaging ABS. An example would be going thru the esses or setting up a line in order to early apex.

>The second intention from what I see is senna heel toeing (matching the engine speed to the gearbox speed) in order to keep the chassis balanced on the track.

Second question, when do you release the clutch? I have heard/read that when you blip is when you release the clutch (which is earlier than I expected). So it seems that you're trying to rev the engine two ways:1) blip the throttle and 2) release the clutch. In other words, not waiting until the throttle brings the revs perfectly to match the point when you release the clutch.

>The clutch is released when the gearbox speed matches the engine speed... all by feel. It is a harmonious movement. 2nd and 3rd are usually spaced the most. The gear ratios will show you the exact numbers. If you can heel toe without your passengers head bobbing then that is a good place to be lol. Have fun and don’t over think it.

Again - appreciate your insight!!
Reply is in the quote.

Last edited by clutchdj; 03-05-2020 at 06:04 PM..
Appreciate 2
M2guru374.50
5.M0NSTER3353.50
      03-05-2020, 07:36 PM   #10
M2guru
Lieutenant
375
Rep
565
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2
Join Date: May 2017
Location: St. Paul MN

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2018 BMW M2  [10.00]
Here's another video I found. I was surprised to see him covering the clutch the whole time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo
Appreciate 0
      03-05-2020, 11:08 PM   #11
CrashFL
M2 Pilot
CrashFL's Avatar
United_States
137
Rep
165
Posts

Drives: '17 M2
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Florida

iTrader: (0)

Re releasing the clutch. When you leave auto blip on, listen to how/when the car blips the throttle, then try to emulate that. You can release the clutch earlier than it might feel natural. Since I'm not as good as the computer, I tend to rev slightly higher than I need to, and release the clutch as the revs start falling. It's less than a half second difference, but mentally it's a bit easier. Also, I might be totally wrong.

Foot position: the brake is the important part. If you screw up the blip, it's not the worst thing in the world. But screwing up the braking.... well, if the brakes don't stop you, something will. I'm big toe and ball of my foot on the brake. Lots of strength and plenty of feel that way. Easy enough to roll my ankle a bit to blip the throttle. To reinforce the muscle memory, I always brake with my foot in the same position. With a little practice, it won't matter much what shoes you wear when you heel & toe during daily driving. On the track, the thin sole shoes and the additional feel really help with braking feel and the nuance of trail braking.

In the M2, the pedal positions make it easy. I have a normal size/ width foot, and it doesn't take any special technique to reach the throttle the the outside of my foot. As for my heel, it doesn't touch either pedal.
__________________
America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed. - Eleanor Roosevelt
'17 BMW M2
Appreciate 2
M2guru374.50
5.M0NSTER3353.50
      03-06-2020, 03:17 AM   #12
5.M0NSTER
Lieutenant Colonel
5.M0NSTER's Avatar
United_States
3354
Rep
1,823
Posts

Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Back in Michigan, GO BLUE!

iTrader: (0)

Yes on 2 independent positions of foot on brake also.

As for clutch, I clutch in and blip the throttle while I’m shifting the lever bro lower gear. I target 800 or so RPM increase and immediately step of the clutch for 5-4 and 4-3. About 1500 for 3-2 shift.
Appreciate 2
M2guru374.50
CrashFL136.50
      03-06-2020, 12:30 PM   #13
Montaver
Lieutenant Colonel
Montaver's Avatar
No_Country
2067
Rep
1,630
Posts

Drives: 718 GT4 & M340i LCI
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Here is some masterful heel toe from Mark Webber. Very impressive trail braking, so precise.

Appreciate 2
mcvaughan702.00
CrashFL136.50
      03-06-2020, 12:33 PM   #14
Conissah
Major
Conissah's Avatar
1575
Rep
1,049
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Charlotte, NC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Here is some masterful heel toe from Mark Webber. Very impressive trail braking, so precise.
Holy shit that is entertaining. He can freaking drive.
Appreciate 1
Montaver2066.50
      03-06-2020, 02:13 PM   #15
CTSean
First Lieutenant
323
Rep
392
Posts

Drives: LCI BSM MT M2
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: CT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Holy shit that is entertaining. He can freaking drive.
He can also fly

Appreciate 3
Conissah1574.50
mcvaughan702.00
CrashFL136.50
      03-06-2020, 02:30 PM   #16
dvas
Lieutenant
dvas's Avatar
515
Rep
579
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2 - Mineral Gray, 6spd
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

Anyone else still double clutch on the downshifts? Been doing it since the early 90s, old habits are hard to break.

To the OP, just practice it on the roads for every downshift. Whether you're slowly coming up to a red light or your having some fun on back roads. I would suggest to keep this off the track until it becomes second nature. Plus, unless you are running all nannies off, the M2 will blip for you. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good and better than most track day drivers.
Appreciate 1
CrashFL136.50
      03-06-2020, 02:48 PM   #17
M2guru
Lieutenant
375
Rep
565
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2
Join Date: May 2017
Location: St. Paul MN

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2018 BMW M2  [10.00]
This morning I realized something that will help but I'll have to get used to it. I found that I plant my heel more in front of the brake pedal than in front of the gas pedal. If I move my heel more towards the front of the gas pedal it makes it much easier to reach the brake pedal and rotate to hit the gas - I have to rotate less. Also...hiking boots suck for feeling the pedal! LOL!

Again, thanks to everyone for your thoughts!
Appreciate 1
CrashFL136.50
      03-06-2020, 03:49 PM   #18
Noel911
Private First Class
90
Rep
126
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2 & 2019 Golf R (Daily)
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NC

iTrader: (0)

It's amazing just how relaxed Webber looks in that video. On that right hand long turn (starting around 1:39), it's a great example if how he manages the understeer with feathering the throttle. He knows if he gives it to much it will just understeer and he'll eat up front tires for now reason. What a master.
__________________
---2017 White M2 - Zero Option- 6-Speed Manual---
Appreciate 3
Conissah1574.50
Montaver2066.50
M2guru374.50
      03-06-2020, 03:51 PM   #19
2020M2Competition
Lieutenant
2020M2Competition's Avatar
429
Rep
433
Posts

Drives: Yes
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Florida

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvas View Post
Anyone else still double clutch on the downshifts? Been doing it since the early 90s, old habits are hard to break.
I do

I learned at a Skip Barber Racing School Competition Course I took in 1991 in an open wheel Formula Ford that did not have synchromesh so it was a fundamental skill to acquire

IMHO, it is still the "proper" way to do it even on a modern vehicle as it saves some wear and tear on vehicle components such as the transmission input shaft, the synchros and even the engine as opposed to simply rev matching while the clutch pedal is still depressed
Appreciate 1
dvas515.00
      03-06-2020, 05:16 PM   #20
Montaver
Lieutenant Colonel
Montaver's Avatar
No_Country
2067
Rep
1,630
Posts

Drives: 718 GT4 & M340i LCI
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noel911 View Post
It's amazing just how relaxed Webber looks in that video. On that right hand long turn (starting around 1:39), it's a great example if how he manages the understeer with feathering the throttle. He knows if he gives it to much it will just understeer and he'll eat up front tires for now reason. What a master.
The overall precision is just a level above 99.9% of the stuff you see on Youtube, one of the best driving videos I've ever seen. Smooth, relaxed, stable, no sawing at the wheel (pet peeve of mine is watching drivers hamfistedly 'bounce' the steering wheel off the understeer limit looking for grip), incredible footwork. Makes sense though given he will undoubtedly be better than 99.9% of drivers out there!
Appreciate 1
Noel91190.00
      03-06-2020, 05:19 PM   #21
Montaver
Lieutenant Colonel
Montaver's Avatar
No_Country
2067
Rep
1,630
Posts

Drives: 718 GT4 & M340i LCI
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VTBoss302 View Post
I do

I learned at a Skip Barber Racing School Competition Course I took in 1991 in an open wheel Formula Ford that did not have synchromesh so it was a fundamental skill to acquire

IMHO, it is still the "proper" way to do it even on a modern vehicle as it saves some wear and tear on vehicle components such as the transmission input shaft, the synchros and even the engine as opposed to simply rev matching while the clutch pedal is still depressed
Off topic but I see from your signature you run Pagid RSL29's, how do they perform on track? Tolerable street manners for driving to/from track? Any comparison to DS1.11's? I've always used PFC's but they don't seem to have any compounds available for the stock M2C pad shape.
Appreciate 0
      03-06-2020, 08:37 PM   #22
2020M2Competition
Lieutenant
2020M2Competition's Avatar
429
Rep
433
Posts

Drives: Yes
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Florida

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Off topic but I see from your signature you run Pagid RSL29's, how do they perform on track? Tolerable street manners for driving to/from track? Any comparison to DS1.11's? I've always used PFC's but they don't seem to have any compounds available for the stock M2C pad shape.
I've had a very good experience running Pagid Yellows over the years on different vehicles. Everyone's uses and priorities will be different, but for my purposes the RSL29 is the best track pad I have ever used. On the track it strikes a great balance between initial bite, modulation, fade resistance and rotor wear. It is also the most street friendly track pad I've used. Good cold bite, relatively quiet and easy on the rotors. Enough so that I don't even bother switching back and forth between other pads. However, my car is not a daily driver and I try to get to the track at least once a month.

I have 3 track days (2 @ Sebring and 1 @ Homestead) and around 2000 total miles with the RSL29s in my M2C so far and they have been holding up well.

The 2NH brakes are probably the best factory brakes I've ever had on track. In spite of all the complaints you see on these forums about them, when properly setup they are quite impressive.

The pads for these calipers are simply massive both in terms of area and volume. The front RSL29s have a pad thickness of 19.5 mm when new and there was still room for a 1 mm titanium shim when installed. The rear pad thickness is 18 mm when new and also had room for a 1 mm shim.

Combined with stainless steel brake lines and Castrol SRF fluid these brakes have been very confidence inspiring.

My only real complaint (and it is very minor) in this application is a faint click that can be heard when first applying the brakes in the opposite direction from which you had previously been moving suggesting that the Pagid pads fit just a little bit loose in the calipers. However, this is a very common occurrence with aftermarket pads that I've experienced many times over the years. It might also just be the titanium shims.

I've never used Ferodo DS1.11s so I can't make any comparison there. I did try the DS2500s many years ago as they were marketed as a dual purpose pad. As you probably know, they're not suitable for the track.

I've read a lot of good things about the new DS3.12s and they are available in M2C sizes. I am very tempted to try them next.

Last edited by 2020M2Competition; 03-06-2020 at 08:41 PM.. Reason: Spelling
Appreciate 2
Montaver2066.50
M2guru374.50
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:42 PM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST