[M2C AW]

Originally Posted by ChristosD

ok so you didn't use a pneumatic tap to the controller your tap is electronic? can you send some pics of your "sandwich type adapter"?

It’s pneumatic. Boost can be picked up from any number of lines / locations.
Here’s a link to the method I choose.
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-p3-gauge...SABEgJEifD_BwE

[ChristosD]

Originally Posted by M2MGM

It’s pneumatic.
Here’s a link
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-p3-gauges-parts/p3cars-n20-n55-boost-tap/p3btap1~p3c/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIptW03_XN4gIVkLXACh1YJgAAEAQYASA BEgJEifD_BwE

That's brilliant thank you I was going to use my second bung as the tap point but I think measuring it at the tmap will be a lot more accurate

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by ChristosD

are AN lines necessary? as I'm line towards the snow stage 2.5 kit for the AN fittings and that epic controller.

To the OP which was closest the the intercooler on the charge pipe your boost tap or the injection nozzle?

The AN lines from Devil's Own, while nice, are PTFE pipes over-braided with stainless. They're quite a bit less flexible than just PTFE or Nylon which is normally supplied for WMI kits.

So from a safety point of view, there are a number of things to consider:

• Fittings - Compression or Push Fit
• Pipe Material - PTFE or Nylon
• Abrasion resistance - Over-braid (Carbon or Stainless) or not

AN is a compression fitting, both at the pipe to fitting and fitting to fitting, but most jets are available with compression fittings to the jet, and then tapered threads to the charge pipe, which are a compression fitting themselves.

PTFE is more temperature resistant and harder (naturally more abrasion resistant) than Nylon.

Over-braid is better than without, but probably not necessary if you're careful about your routing. It does look nice though, especially black carbon fibre! I don't think Stainless over-braid looks correct in our engine bay.

I'm planning to use Aquamist PTFE 4mm pipe in the engine bay, over-braided with carbon fibre, into compression fittings to their jets. No AN fittings, but compression all the way.

If you keep your meth concentration to 50/50, it's not flammable anyway, so that increases safety considerably.

[ZM2]

I spoke with my race shop yesterday about this (while I was getting my 305/30/19 RE-71R’s installed ) and they’ve done a lot of WMI on BMW’s, including working on the M4 GTS’s water injection system.

They seem to prefer Snow, and we’re going to scope out a simple WMI setup for track use, including:

-Use windshield wiper reservoir
-FTP charge pipe already has Snow meth bung
-Find place for pump
-Generally, I think the control setup can be very simple, as I don’t need it integrated into a tune--I would only use WMI at the track to reduce IATs. The factory WW low level sensor will alert me when low, and I already monitor oil, coolant, and IATs at the track, and actively add octane or dial back my tune as needed. I would refill the WW reservoir between track sessions.

Will let you all know how it goes!

[M2C AW]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I spoke with my race shop yesterday about this (while I was getting my 305/30/19 RE-71R’s installed ) and they’ve done a lot of WMI on BMW’s, including working on the M4 GTS’s water injection system.

They seem to prefer Snow, and we’re going to scope out a simple WMI setup for track use, including:

-Use windshield wiper reservoir
-FTP charge pipe already has Snow meth bung
-Find place for pump
-Generally, I think the control setup can be very simple, as I don’t need it integrated into a tune--I would only use WMI at the track to reduce IATs. The factory WW low level sensor will alert me when low, and I already monitor oil, coolant, and IATs at the track, and actively add octane or dial back my tune as needed. I would refill the WW reservoir between track sessions.

Will let you all know how it goes!

cool. keep us posted.

[M2C AW]

EDIT in OP to add another log with higher ambients.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by M2MGM

EDIT in OP to add another log with higher ambients.

Your weblink isn’t working.

[M2C AW]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Your weblink isn’t working.

fixed..thank you !

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by M2MGM

EDIT in OP to add another log with higher ambients.

Nice results.

Any idea how low IATs would get if you kept pushing? I’m hoping to keep mine below 100F in all conditions once I get a WMI setup in place.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by ZM2

-Use windshield wiper reservoir
-FTP charge pipe already has Snow meth bung
-Find place for pump

If you're going WW reservoir, I did read a post from someone who'd fitted their pump to the inside of the bumper. There is an image in this post of someone doing this on an N20 F20 without our additional radiator:

and I'm sure I saw someone with an M4 was posting how he'd re-located the horn and managed to get the pump to fit. It was in the classifieds somewhere because he was selling his setup. I'll update this post if I find the thread and / or images <- Found it!

Here's the thread, featuring an F80, and here's the image:

Behind the front bumper would be an ideal location, because it isn't exposed to the elements; behind the arch liner or my 2 year old car was nearly spotlessly clean!

Will let you all know how it goes!

Please do! You might be ahead of me because I need to wait for my Aquamist parts to arrive from the UK.

[M2C AW]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Nice results.

Any idea how low IATs would get if you kept pushing? I’m hoping to keep mine below 100F in all conditions once I get a WMI setup in place.

Unknown at this time...more / longer logs may tell. However, if goal is to eliminate knocks and avoid pulling timing...mission accomplished despite these higher IAT temps.

[M2C AW]

Originally Posted by Nezil

If you're going WW reservoir, I did read a post from someone who'd fitted their pump to the inside of the bumper. There is an image in this post of someone doing this on an N20 F20 without our additional radiator:

and I'm sure I saw someone with an M4 was posting how he'd re-located the horn and managed to get the pump to fit. It was in the classifieds somewhere because he was selling his setup. I'll update this post if I find the thread and / or images.

Behind the front bumper would be an ideal location, because it isn't exposed to the elements; behind the arch liner or my 2 year old car was nearly spotlessly clean!

Please do! You might be ahead of me because I need to wait for my Aquamist parts to arrive from the UK.

I had a pump mounted in a similar area on another car (ZR1) and it was fine, until I had to trouble shoot an issue with the pump....had to disassemble too many body panels at an inconvenient time / place in order to inspect / repair. Lesson learned.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by M2MGM

I had a pump mounted in a similar area on another car (ZR1) and it was fine, until I had to trouble shoot an issue with the pump....had to disassemble too many body panels at an inconvenient time / place in order to inspect / repair. Lesson learned.

I can't speak to your ZR1, but getting to this area on the M2 takes about 5 minutes if you have an 8mm socket and a jack....

Getting to the WW Reservoir takes a bit longer because there is all manner of different fasteners holding the rear arch liner on, but the front... easy peasy.

[ZM2]

Alright Sir, I think I'm going to follow your lead on the no frills AEM setup with a focus on IAT reduction, vs fueling and tuning, since I have access to good fuel and E85.

My car setup is similar to yours: EVO 2 comp, HJS 300-cell DP (installed today), but I'm also running the Dinan turbo and an E30 Stg 2H map from Halim.

As for the WMI setup, I'm working with my race shop to use the WW reservoir and find a place for the pump somewhere under the hood. A few questions:

-I believe the AEM nozzle sizing chart shows to go with the 1000cc/min nozzle in my case (475ish hp, 18psi), but I don't know if they're sizing to supplement fueling or to just drop IATs. How'd you choose the 500cc/min nozzle?

-Which charge pipe are you using? My FTP pipe has two bungs and we'll use the one furthest from the MAP sensor for the meth injector.

-My FTP pipe also has another bung by the MAP sensor. Thoughts on putting another MAP sensor in there, vs the boost tap you used to pick up boost pressure?

-Where'd you place your controller? Since I'll get a low level alert from the car's WW reservoir sensor, I don't need easy access to the controller. I'm thinking center console, glovebox, or under the drivers seat.

Thanks for the help!

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Alright Sir, I think I'm going to follow your lead on the no frills AEM setup with a focus on IAT reduction, vs fueling and tuning, since I have access to good fuel and E85.

Good luck to you... Please post either here or in your own thread about your experiences. There is now quite a few of us going WMI in some form or other.

As for the WMI setup, I'm working with my race shop to use the WW reservoir and find a place for the pump somewhere under the hood.

I've looked under the hood, and it's tight... I think the best location is where the F80 owner mounted his that I posted about above, just to the right of the radiator where one of the horns is currently located. Here's how it looks on an M2, for comparison to the above:

-I believe the AEM nozzle sizing chart shows to go with the 1000cc/min nozzle in my case (475ish hp, 18psi), but I don't know if they're sizing to supplement fueling or to just drop IATs. How'd you choose the 500cc/min nozzle?

In all of my research, I've seen that the sizing depends on the type of fluid you plan to inject. For water only, it's a lower amount. For 50/50 water / meth, it's a higher amount, and for 100% meth, higher still.

Aquamist (which is just one point of reference), suggests the following:

Choosing water/methanol flow for your application:

100% water: 10-15% water/fuel ratio or 0-5-1cc per BHP
M50/W50: 15-20% MW/fuel ratio or 1-1.5cc per BHP
100% methanol: 20-25% methanol/fuel ratio or 1.5-2cc per BHP

Typically a single jet atomises worse than two jets, which is one of the reasons to have two bungs in the charge pipe. Having said that, if I was going to only use one... I'd use the one you selected.

[M2C AW]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Alright Sir, I think I'm going to follow your lead on the no frills AEM setup with a focus on IAT reduction, vs fueling and tuning, since I have access to good fuel and E85.

My car setup is similar to yours: EVO 2 comp, HJS 300-cell DP (installed today), but I'm also running the Dinan turbo and an E30 Stg 2H map from Halim.

As for the WMI setup, I'm working with my race shop to use the WW reservoir and find a place for the pump somewhere under the hood. A few questions:

-I believe the AEM nozzle sizing chart shows to go with the 1000cc/min nozzle in my case (475ish hp, 18psi), but I don't know if they're sizing to supplement fueling or to just drop IATs. How'd you choose the 500cc/min nozzle?

-Which charge pipe are you using? My FTP pipe has two bungs and we'll use the one furthest from the MAP sensor for the meth injector.

-My FTP pipe also has another bung by the MAP sensor. Thoughts on putting another MAP sensor in there, vs the boost tap you used to pick up boost pressure?

-Where'd you place your controller? Since I'll get a low level alert from the car's WW reservoir sensor, I don't need easy access to the controller. I'm thinking center console, glovebox, or under the drivers seat.

Thanks for the help!

My experience so far with the AEM system has been good. I've had zero issues with it, and appears to be effective in keeping IATs in check.

Nozzle size selection...chart shows me at the upper limit for the mid-size nozzle. I started with that and figured Id keep an eye on IATs /knock/timing, and adjust accordingly. so far, it appears to be sufficient, so ill stick with it for now.

Nozzle location..I have the VRSF charge pipe which has only one bung. If it had a second, Id probably do what you propose doing, although I'm sure there are alternate spots/lines to pick up boost pressure.

Controller location...so far, my controller is located next to the tank in the trunk....set it and forget it - type thing. I installed the LED system status indicator line-of-sight...on the steering column. Your proposed locations should work great.

I have a DE event coming up this weekend. Ambients are forecast to be mid 90s...so should be a real test.

[ZM2]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Def sounds like we’re right on the edge of going with the 500 or 1000cc/min nozzle if we’re doing a 49/51 meth/water mix. 750 would be ideal, and I could always get a 500 and 250, but one of the bungs on the FTP pipe is right next to the MAP sensor and it doesn’t seem like it’s a good idea to spray that close?

I like the set and forget idea with the controller. Do you think it’s robust enough to mount on the other side of the firewall under the hood?

I’m definitely looking forward to hearing how it performs on your next track day!

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by ZM2

I could always get a 500 and 250, but one of the bungs on the FTP pipe is right next to the MAP sensor and it doesn’t seem like it’s a good idea to spray that close?

I don't think it's a problem... but I'll know in a few weeks.

I think as I understand it, the further back from the throttle body, the better chance of mixing so you get an equal mix to each cylinder. You'll also have more time for the fluid to change state from liquid to gas, bringing down IAT.

If you spray closer to the intake, like the other FTP bung (I have FTP as well by the way), then provided your spray mixes, which certainly isn't guaranteed, the change of state will happen more in the combustion phase, and you'll also get more benefit from the octane in the methanol.

I think the ideal combination, and one which Aquamist recommends, is port injection to each intake tract, combined with a single larger jet as far back as possible. I may eventually end up going this route, because it's only jets and manifold that I'll need to change. Our N55 inlet manifold is super common as a used part, so if I go that route, I'll buy a used part off eBay and tap that for jets. The total cost will be a lot cheaper than a fuel-it spacer, and equally as effective.

[ChristosD]

Originally Posted by Nezil

I don't think it's a problem... but I'll know in a few weeks.

I think as I understand it, the further back from the throttle body, the better chance of mixing so you get an equal mix to each cylinder. You'll also have more time for the fluid to change state from liquid to gas, bringing down IAT.

If you spray closer to the intake, like the other FTP bung (I have FTP as well by the way), then provided your spray mixes, which certainly isn't guaranteed, the change of state will happen more in the combustion phase, and you'll also get more benefit from the octane in the methanol.

I think the ideal combination, and one which Aquamist recommends, is port injection to each intake tract, combined with a single larger jet as far back as possible. I may eventually end up going this route, because it's only jets and manifold that I'll need to change. Our N55 inlet manifold is super common as a used part, so if I go that route, I'll buy a used part off eBay and tap that for jets. The total cost will be a lot cheaper than a fuel-it spacer, and equally as effective.

That's a very good idea regarding port meth injection prometh sell a complete unit

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by ChristosD

That's a very good idea regarding port meth injection prometh sell a complete unit

Yeah, I've seen the Prometh kit, and it looks high quality.

If I go port meth injection, and I'd say there's a high chance of that, simply because I love to tinker with things, I'll probably buy a used plastic manifold and tap it with aquamist jets like has been done in these posts:

• https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=947629
• https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31880

The main reason I wouldn't go Prometh is because the Aquamist fittings are metric and BSP rather than AN and NPT. I'm sure there are convertors, but then I'd miss the fun of setting all of this up anyway.

Doing it myself would probably save a couple of hundred dollars at most, but I'd get more enjoyment out of it.

Aquamist port parts can be found here: http://www.aquamist-direct.com/direct-port-parts/

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by M2MGM

My experience so far with the AEM system has been good. I've had zero issues with it, and appears to be effective in keeping IATs in check.

Nozzle size selection...chart shows me at the upper limit for the mid-size nozzle. I started with that and figured Id keep an eye on IATs /knock/timing, and adjust accordingly. so far, it appears to be sufficient, so ill stick with it for now.

Nozzle location..I have the VRSF charge pipe which has only one bung. If it had a second, Id probably do what you propose doing, although I'm sure there are alternate spots/lines to pick up boost pressure.

Controller location...so far, my controller is located next to the tank in the trunk....set it and forget it - type thing. I installed the LED system status indicator line-of-sight...on the steering column. Your proposed locations should work great.

I have a DE event coming up this weekend. Ambients are forecast to be mid 90s...so should be a real test.

How’d she do, Sir?

I’m curious to hear if the car ran smooth, and if you had a noticeable drop in IATs.

[M2C AW]

Just added a datalog from this weekends track day to post #1.
Ambients were cooler than expected this weekend due to lots of cloud cover, so highest temp I caught a log for was 89 degrees. Unfortunately I had an issue with my agent device that kept me from capturing some additional logs in the afternoon when ambients were a few degrees higher.
Car felt great and ran with good power all weekend....
I targeted consumption of one-half gallon of WM for a 30 min track session...as a practical matter. To achieve that..I incrementally bumped-up the start pump boost pressure on the AEM controller. After several sessions, a start pressure of 8 seems to achieve that result...and that's the setting this new data was logged under. In the future, if / when logs show higher IATs / knocks / timing pulls...Ill try starting the WM injection earlier by lowering the start pump pressures. If that isn't sufficient, Ill try increasing injector jet size. Might also experiment with WM ratios...perhaps 60/40 vs 50/50....for example. Theres quite a bit of flexibility / adjustability here..even with this basic WMI system.
Overall...I'm feeling pretty positive about the WMI system for track use with this platform...especially when considering the propensity and destructive effects of knock on these higher compression boosted engines.
I will say it pretty cool to be able to safely run the PTF OTS Stg 2 93 on track with pump 93 at the higher ambients….without resorting to octane boosters (race gas, ethanol, octane boosters, etc) other than the WMI. On previous outings, I had to reflash to Stg 2 91 and then add a few gallons of 110 to eliminate knock.
Ofcourse..the downside of WMI is having to haul multiple gallon jugs of WM pre-mix to the track each event..to say nothing of having to top off the WM reservoir after each session....especially when using a 1 gallon capacity reservoir. Like everything else..its a balancing act.
.