[David.m]

Originally Posted by Poochie

How could you guys honestly believe that a device that is intentional installed to alters a vehicle's carbon emission levels, in violations federal emissions laws, would NOT void the manufacture's warranty?

Not trying to be a buzzkill but you whole drivetrain warranty is gone the second the dealer sees a different catalytic converter installed or the emissions system has been tampered with.

The manufacture of the sports cat should just be honest; you have to pay to play..



Do downpipes void warranty? https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139335

Obviously a lot will depend on the laws for the country/state you live. My dealer didn't have an issue with fitting the Fabspeed sport cat itself though like any mod if it directly causes an issue you wear it.

I wonder, if a CEL hasn't been activated would that suggest the car's emissions are compliant?

I can understand the dealer issues with the car you linked to in that thread. He had a catless dp and no CEL which would reasonably suggest other modifications to defeat stock engine management. Here I think the question concerns a catted dp and those with the HJS cores don't cause a CEL. The instances I've read with CEL issues there are other mods (admittedly though some minor).

[Fabspeed Motorsport]

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about voiding your dealer warranty.

Due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, originally passed in 1975, a company cannot void your warranty simply because you have modified a product on your car. This goes for Sport Cat Downpipes, Catbypass Downpipes, or any other modification.

If there is damage to your car that you want covered under your warranty, the company has to prove that it was the modification that led to the failure of their parts in order for them to void your warranty.

Granted, this can be somewhat of a gray area and companies may try to dispute your warranty claim, possibly just hoping you walk away and try to get it fixed elsewhere.

A real life example; we had a customer with a Fabspeed Catbypass Downpipe and X-Pipe. The turbo on their car failed, and the dealer tried to claim it was due to lack of back pressure caused by the Downpipe. We stood behind the customer and pushed back, and the company folded and covered the damage under warranty.

If you somehow blew out your Sport Cats, and your engine failed and the dealer found pieces of the Catalytic Convertor in the engine then that would be a good example of something they would be able to void your warranty over and have proof to back it up.

Remember though, the company has to prove that the modification was the reason for the failure. The burden of proof is on them, not you. If a company tells your or implies otherwise, they are misguiding you. It’s very important to know your rights as a consumer. I’ll link to a couple good articles that go more in-depth.

More on the Magnuson-Moss Act | https://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guide...s/undermag.htm

More on Car Warranties & Modifications Specifically | http://lehtoslaw.com/will-modificati...-car-warranty/ & https://www.autotrader.com/car-shopp...cations-224816

[425M2]

I'm going to try to do a DIY DP install here soon, tracking this thread.

[McGary911]

Originally Posted by Fabspeed Motorsport

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about voiding your dealer warranty.

Due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, originally passed in 1975, a company cannot void your warranty simply because you have modified a product on your car. This goes for Sport Cat Downpipes, Catbypass Downpipes, or any other modification.

If there is damage to your car that you want covered under your warranty, the company has to prove that it was the modification that led to the failure of their parts in order for them to void your warranty.

Granted, this can be somewhat of a gray area and companies may try to dispute your warranty claim, possibly just hoping you walk away and try to get it fixed elsewhere.

A real life example; we had a customer with a Fabspeed Catbypass Downpipe and X-Pipe. The turbo on their car failed, and the dealer tried to claim it was due to lack of back pressure caused by the Downpipe. We stood behind the customer and pushed back, and the company folded and covered the damage under warranty.

If you somehow blew out your Sport Cats, and your engine failed and the dealer found pieces of the Catalytic Convertor in the engine then that would be a good example of something they would be able to void your warranty over and have proof to back it up.

Remember though, the company has to prove that the modification was the reason for the failure. The burden of proof is on them, not you. If a company tells your or implies otherwise, they are misguiding you. It’s very important to know your rights as a consumer. I’ll link to a couple good articles that go more in-depth.

More on the Magnuson-Moss Act | https://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guide...s/undermag.htm

More on Car Warranties & Modifications Specifically | http://lehtoslaw.com/will-modificati...-car-warranty/ & https://www.autotrader.com/car-shopp...cations-224816

All very good points, but one thing a dealer CAN do is charge you labor for their investigation. They will take their time. Just keep that loophole in mind. Btw, I LOVE my sportcat. Just the fact that it doesn’t throw a CEL is BMW telling me that it’s within the parameters that Bmw Specifies in their software.

[dcgolfdr]

Originally Posted by 425M2

I'm going to try to do a DIY DP install here soon, tracking this thread.

Just did mine today. The Fabspeed pipe went in without a problem. I did have to send the pipe back to Fabspeed for the flange to be corrected but all
is now good. We did use a lift which made it much easier.

[Drop the hammer]

I just swapped my down pipe again. I found it easier this time because I only raised the front on my car the height of my Ramps plus 2 inch thick planks, I jack my car onto the Ramps as my Ramps slide around my ribtrax tile floor. This made the working height to the top clamp perfect while laying on the floor, very easy to reach and hold. Last time I had car up on jack stands and I couldn’t quite reach the top clamp without a bit of a sit up position with fully reached out arms.
Also I learned that spreading the v-clamp with another small bolt and two nuts opens it up a bit to make it real easy to get back on. These two tricks sped the whole process up by a lot.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by Fabspeed Motorsport

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about voiding your dealer warranty.

Due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, originally passed in 1975, a company cannot void your warranty simply because you have modified a product on your car. This goes for Sport Cat Downpipes, Catbypass Downpipes, or any other modification.

If there is damage to your car that you want covered under your warranty, the company has to prove that it was the modification that led to the failure of their parts in order for them to void your warranty.

Granted, this can be somewhat of a gray area and companies may try to dispute your warranty claim, possibly just hoping you walk away and try to get it fixed elsewhere.

A real life example; we had a customer with a Fabspeed Catbypass Downpipe and X-Pipe. The turbo on their car failed, and the dealer tried to claim it was due to lack of back pressure caused by the Downpipe. We stood behind the customer and pushed back, and the company folded and covered the damage under warranty.

If you somehow blew out your Sport Cats, and your engine failed and the dealer found pieces of the Catalytic Convertor in the engine then that would be a good example of something they would be able to void your warranty over and have proof to back it up.

Remember though, the company has to prove that the modification was the reason for the failure. The burden of proof is on them, not you. If a company tells your or implies otherwise, they are misguiding you. It’s very important to know your rights as a consumer. I’ll link to a couple good articles that go more in-depth.

More on the Magnuson-Moss Act | https://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guide...s/undermag.htm

More on Car Warranties & Modifications Specifically | http://lehtoslaw.com/will-modificati...-car-warranty/ & https://www.autotrader.com/car-shopp...cations-224816

Thank you. I had given up on the battle, having posted similar links and made the same points several times on this board. But the "automatic voiding of warranty" myth will not die, no matter how many times it is stabbed in the heart.

My dealer, through my service rep, knows I have a 200 cell DP (happens to be a Fabspeed.) He has not said a bloody thing about it, other than he likes the sound it gives the exhaust

Put it this way--I'd be more worried about other possible mods that increase boost, etc., than I would about a catted DP. But even then, the burden is on the dealer trying to avoid the warranty to establish the causal link.

[Who?]

It may not void warranty, but when something goes wrong, i wouldnt be suprised if the dealer gives u grief

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Fabspeed Motorsport

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about voiding your dealer warranty.

Due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, originally passed in 1975, a company cannot void your warranty simply because you have modified a product on your car. This goes for Sport Cat Downpipes, Catbypass Downpipes, or any other modification.

If there is damage to your car that you want covered under your warranty, the company has to prove that it was the modification that led to the failure of their parts in order for them to void your warranty.

Granted, this can be somewhat of a gray area and companies may try to dispute your warranty claim, possibly just hoping you walk away and try to get it fixed elsewhere.

A real life example; we had a customer with a Fabspeed Catbypass Downpipe and X-Pipe. The turbo on their car failed, and the dealer tried to claim it was due to lack of back pressure caused by the Downpipe. We stood behind the customer and pushed back, and the company folded and covered the damage under warranty.

If you somehow blew out your Sport Cats, and your engine failed and the dealer found pieces of the Catalytic Convertor in the engine then that would be a good example of something they would be able to void your warranty over and have proof to back it up.

Remember though, the company has to prove that the modification was the reason for the failure. The burden of proof is on them, not you. If a company tells your or implies otherwise, they are misguiding you. It’s very important to know your rights as a consumer. I’ll link to a couple good articles that go more in-depth.

More on the Magnuson-Moss Act | https://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guide...s/undermag.htm

More on Car Warranties & Modifications Specifically | http://lehtoslaw.com/will-modificati...-car-warranty/ & https://www.autotrader.com/car-shopp...cations-224816

This is extremely misleading. I think you guys need to go back and read very carefully through the MMA so that you can fully understand the intent and purpose.

The MMA was developed so that DIYers and non-manufacturer repair facilities could service cars with non-OEM parts built to OEM specifications/standards without risk of the manufacturer claiming the said non-OEM parts would/could/did cause damage to the vehicle and thus voiding any remaining warranty. The MMA was designed to cover things like oil and air filters, non-OEM fluids, windshields, re-man axles, exhaust systems, brake pads and rotors, etc.

What the MMA is NOT designed to cover is parts that do not meet OEM specifications. Your downpipes do not meet the intent of the MMA because they are not built to OEM specifications, specifically catalytic converter cell count. Running you downpipes on a publically-driven car is also a violation of the federal Clean Air Act and thus, ALL state air regulatory rules and regulations as well.

Yes, it is on the automaker to prove that your aftermarket part was the direct cause and/or contributing factor of a mechanical failure. However, it would be incredibly easy for BMW to claim that a downpipe was the cause of most any engine or drivetrain failure because the part makes the motor operate outside of it's designed parameters (i.e., the DME) and it increases power thus potentially compromising drivetrain reliability. You can claim the MMA all you want if you're faced with this issue, but any court would side with BMW. Plus, BMW has a very large legal group on retainer. They know they could tie you up in court for a long time and they know most people aren't going to fight it because they need their car and don't have the time or money to fight a legal battle.

Many need to realize that the dealer isn't the one that covers the warranty, it's BMW that makes the call. With many of the powertrain claims, the claim goes through BMW for approval. You might have a mod friendly dealer, but their hands are tied as BMW is the one that calls the shots.

BMW and any other automaker isn't in the business to support your personnel modification and racing program. If you want to add more power and performance to your car with aftermarket parts then you should plan for the worst and expect BMW to deny coverage for most any powertrain related failure. The other option is to buy a faster/better performing car in stock form.

[Fabspeed Motorsport]

Sorry, but I don’t see how what we said was misleading in anyway.

You seem to be very focused on what the MMA was “designed” to cover and not what it actually legally covers.

We have over 20 years of experience in this industry and are very familiar with how the warranty process is treated. Yes, if you mod your car the dealership will likely be on the lookout. Yes, the company might try to deny warranty coverage on the basis that your mod caused it. You should be prepared to deal with those scenarios if you are making modifications to your car. I thought we made those points very clear in our pervious post and I apologize if that was not conveyed properly.

You are correct that it would be easy for a company to CLAIM that a downpipe was the cause of an engine failure, but for them to PROVE that is an entirely different story.

I’m not sure where you are getting your information as our catalytic convertors are legal in 49/50 states. If you would like to discuss any of this more in-depth you’re welcome to shoot me a PM or give me a call.

[nioh_lbbm2]

Originally Posted by Fabspeed Motorsport

Sorry, but I don't see how what we said was misleading in anyway.

You seem to be very focused on what the MMA was "designed" to cover and not what it actually legally covers.

We have over 20 years of experience in this industry and are very familiar with how the warranty process is treated. Yes, if you mod your car the dealership will likely be on the lookout. Yes, the company might try to deny warranty coverage on the basis that your mod caused it. You should be prepared to deal with those scenarios if you are making modifications to your car. I thought we made those points very clear in our pervious post and I apologize if that was not conveyed properly.

You are correct that it would be easy for a company to CLAIM that a downpipe was the cause of an engine failure, but for them to PROVE that is an entirely different story.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information as our catalytic convertors are legal in 49/50 states. If you would like to discuss any of this more in-depth you're welcome to shoot me a PM or give me a call.

I agree with all your points except the last bit about legality. I believe the guy above was trying to distinguish the fact that FEDERALLY the sport cat is illegal since at the federal level any cat modification is illegal.

At the state level, however the sport cat is legal.

[Fabspeed Motorsport]

Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2

I agree with all your points except the last bit about legality. I believe the guy above was trying to distinguish the fact that FEDERALLY the sport cat is illegal since at the federal level any cat modification is illegal.

At the state level, however the sport cat is legal.

Yes, that is true.

They have always been illegal on the Federal level, however, we are not aware of any known cases where the end user has had legal trouble on the Federal level because of a modification like this. There have been cases where they crackdown on shops, but the customer is normally protected by State Laws/jurisdiction.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am just trying to give an accurate depiction of what to expect. We just want to make sure all the facts are laid out for you all to see and then make your own determination on the level of risks/benefits of these types of modifications.

Let me know if anyone has any questions.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Fabspeed Motorsport

Yes, that is true.

They have always been illegal on the Federal level, however, we are not aware of any known cases where the end user has had legal trouble on the Federal level because of a modification like this. There have been cases where they crackdown on shops, but the customer is normally protected by State Laws/jurisdiction.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am just trying to give an accurate depiction of what to expect. We just want to make sure all the facts are laid out for you all to see and then make your own determination on the level of risks/benefits of these types of modifications.

Let me know if anyone has any questions.

Well, as luck would have it I am environmental consultant and work largely in environmental compliance including air and have done so for about 20 years now. FACT: States cannot have less stringent environmental rules/regulations than the Federal rules/regulations. The states can be more stringent if they want to though (i.e., CA and a few others).

Tampering with and/or modifying any emissions control system to the point that it is less effective that way it came from the factory is illegal under Federal law thus is also illegal at the state level. This would be the case with any aftermarket DP for these cars as the DPs all run lower cell count catalytic converters. Will you go to jail or get a fine for running a DP? Probably not, but it is most definitely illegal.

[Fabspeed Motorsport]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Well, as luck would have it I am environmental consultant and work largely in environmental compliance including air and have done so for about 20 years now. FACT: States cannot have less stringent environmental rules/regulations than the Federal rules/regulations. The states can be more stringent if they want to though (i.e., CA and a few others).

Tampering with and/or modifying any emissions control system to the point that it is less effective that way it came from the factory is illegal under Federal law thus is also illegal at the state level. This would be the case with any aftermarket DP for these cars as the DPs all run lower cell count catalytic converters. Will you go to jail or get a fine for running a DP? Probably not, but it is most definitely illegal.

We could go round and round all day. As stated before our sport cat downpipe passes emissions in 49 out of 50 states and passes sniffer test in all 50 states.

[David1]

Originally Posted by Fabspeed Motorsport

We could go round and round all day. As stated before our sport cat downpipe passes emissions in 49 out of 50 states and passes sniffer test in all 50 states.

That does not make it legal.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Fabspeed Motorsport

We could go round and round all day. As stated before our sport cat downpipe passes emissions in 49 out of 50 states and passes sniffer test in all 50 states.

Sounds to me like you're deflecting, no? To document this for the forum and existing/potential customers, please elaborate on how FS has determined that it's downpipes are legal in 49 states. I'm very curious has to how the company determined this.

Like David1 noted, passing sniffer tests and not throwing CELs certainly does not mean the part is emission compliant/legal. Surely you've heard of the legal and criminal issues VW is in with respect to illegal modification of its diesel engine control systems.

[Artemis]

To all: if you want to get your message across, please keep the discussion serene.

Avoid presenting interpretation as facts and vice versa. Steer clear of getting personal.

Thank you.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by BruceM

Thank you. I had given up on the battle, having posted similar links and made the same points several times on this board. But the "automatic voiding of warranty" myth will not die, no matter how many times it is stabbed in the heart.

My dealer, through my service rep, knows I have a 200 cell DP (happens to be a Fabspeed.) He has not said a bloody thing about it, other than he likes the sound it gives the exhaust

Put it this way--I'd be more worried about other possible mods that increase boost, etc., than I would about a catted DP. But even then, the burden is on the dealer trying to avoid the warranty to establish the causal link.

Funny, my dealer and my service rep, who happen to be the same as your dealer and your service rep said the exact same thing about my Fabspeed DP.

For the rest of you guys (Not directed at you, Bruce):

Voiding my warranty is right up there with rickets on my list of things I worry about every day. As for violating any Federal emissions laws, I suspect the Federal government has better things to do than dedicate resources to hunting me and my Fabspeed sport cat down.

If someone finds themselves overly concerned with voiding warranties or getting busted by the Feds, the solution is abundantly simple: Don't buy a sport cat. Problem solved. All this hand wringing about how to interpret the MM act or is the sport cat federally illegal but OK with the states is futile. If you are concerned, don't buy one. Move along.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

If someone finds themselves overly concerned with voiding warranties or getting busted by the Feds, the solution is abundantly simple: Don't buy a sport cat. Problem solved. All this hand wringing about how to interpret the MM act or is the sport cat federally illegal but OK with the states is futile. If you are concerned, don't buy one. Move along.

The tampering with or defeating the emission control systems is illegal. Period. However, the EPA or even the states will most likely not come after you, the customer. They have much bigger fish to fry. The way EPA addresses motor vehicle emissions compliance/violations is that the violation must represent an imminent threat to human health and the environment. It can be argued that private party running a catted downpipe with a lower cell count catalytic converter, while illegal, does not present a imminent threat due to the minuscule increase in emissions from one car.

Now for Fabspeed, as a company making and selling the part, they are in very dangerous waters for specifically stating that their catted downpipe is 49 state legal because it certainly is not. It's also at odds with how they advertise the legality of the device on their website which states the following:

"Complies with most emissions regulations (NOTE: It the purchaser's responsibility to verify legality and compliance in their region.)"

Putting my legal hat on, this a better statement, but I could still see an EPA attorney taking issue with this as it does not totally convey the legality of the part to the customer and any attorney would rip a part the word "most". LOL

Currently, the maximum EPA penalty for Clean Air Act (CAA) violations is $93,750 per day, per violation. EPA takes air very seriously as the CAA violation penalty schedule is one of the highest compared to water quality and waste disposal/management.

If I were Fabspeed, I would:

1) Not say my downpipes are 49 state legal because they are not and it's misleading to the buyer. The buyer should fully know what they are buying into.

2) Have an attorney review their wording about the legality of the part as presented on their website.

3) Fabspeed needs to have an attorney convey to them the intent of the MMA because they have interpreted it incorrectly.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The tampering with or defeating the emission control systems is illegal. Period. However, the EPA or even the states will most likely not come after you, the customer. They have much bigger fish to fry. The way EPA addresses motor vehicle emissions compliance/violations is that the violation must represent an imminent threat to human health and the environment. It can be argued that private party running a catted downpipe with a lower cell count catalytic converter, while illegal, does not present a imminent threat due to the minuscule increase in emissions from one car.

You could make the same argument of every marijuana dispensary in WA, OR, CO, etc. yet there they are, on nearly every corner.

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Now for Fabspeed, as a company making and selling the part, they are in very dangerous waters for specifically stating that their catted downpipe is 49 state legal because it certainly is not. It's also at odds with how they advertise the legality of the device on their website which states the following:

"Complies with most emissions regulations (NOTE: It the purchaser's responsibility to verify legality and compliance in their region.)"

Putting my legal hat on, this a better statement, but I could still see an EPA attorney taking issue with this as it does not totally convey the legality of the part to the customer and any attorney would rip a part the word "most". LOL

Currently, the maximum EPA penalty for Clean Air Act (CAA) violations is $93,750 per day, per violation. EPA takes air very seriously as the CAA violation penalty schedule is one of the highest compared to water quality and waste disposal/management.

If I were Fabspeed, I would:

1) Not say my downpipes are 49 state legal because they are not and it's misleading to the buyer. The buyer should fully know what they are buying into.

2) Have an attorney review their wording about the legality of the part as presented on their website.

3) Fabspeed needs to have an attorney convey to them the intent of the MMA because they have interpreted it incorrectly.

Fabspeed is a company with a product to sell. How they chose to market and sell is up to them. You as a consumer have a choice to purchase or not. Fabspeed has been around for a long time and I'm sure they have been advised by legal council. If they haven't, well that's their risk. But again, all we can do it chose to purchase or not. If you feel deceived by their statements I would encourage you to talk directly to Fabspeed as opposed to making legal recommendations to them on a public forum. Just my 2 cents, though I dont disagree with you. Most manufacturers put the ubiquitous "For racing purposes only, not for use on the highway" label on all their products to cover their butts. It's about as worthless a statement as a Prop 65 warning, but it covers them.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Fabspeed is a company with a product to sell. How they chose to market and sell is up to them. You as a consumer have a choice to purchase or not. Fabspeed has been around for a long time and I'm sure they have been advised by legal council. If they haven't, well that's their risk. But again, all we can do it chose to purchase or not. If you feel deceived by their statements I would encourage you to talk directly to Fabspeed as opposed to making legal recommendations to them on a public forum. Just my 2 cents, though I dont disagree with you.

Fabspeed is making misleading statements on a public forum regarding the legality of their products and the MMA so I will address this on a public forum as well. It doesn't help the forum members to take this discussion offline.

I completely agree, it is totally up to you on of you modify your car. I've owned many illegally modified cars in my car all while being an environmental consultant. I am not a treehugger

[cecaa850]

When the EPA starts coming after black smoke spewing diesels I'll start getting concerned. Until that point in time this is an absolute non issue.