[ZM2]

Hey guys, starting up a new thread since a lot of us will probably start trying out the BM3 Multimap Stg 2+ map with PTF's new Flexfuel sensor, and we'll all start reviewing logs to make sure it's working correctly.

First off, the PTF flexfuel sensor is a super easy install. I had no issues, but it's funny how PTF & MHD say it only takes 5-10min. It took me about an hour all-in, including seats in/out, flashing, cleanup, etc., but I also take my time with these things.

Everything seems to be working great and as advertised with the flexfuel sensor and Stg 2+ Multimap. I simply flashed the Stg 2+ Multimap, didn't do any map switching, and let the tune adjust on its own based on the fuel.

I did E47 logs first (below), and then after I added 93 to the tank I let the car idle and it was pretty cool to watch the Emix and blend factor values trend downwards in the BM3 dashboard in real time. It took about 2min of idle for the fuel/tune to stabilize (or, about 1/2mi of easy driving when I readded E85 after all this logging to get back to E30).

First, let's compare the logs:

E47: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61c1...0b431790caf39c
E15: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61c1...90c6576740d434

Quick notes on what I'm seeing are:

--The boost targets are the same but the timing is being reduced with lower Emix. That's how several of us thought this was going to work!
--It also seems the tune is relying more on pulling timing (not just lower timing target) when running a lower Emix while keeping the boost target the same. No knocks or anything, so seems like a good enough tune strategy.
--The HPFP angle also shows the fueling required difference b/n the Emixes, no surprise there.
--One area where this tune differs quite a bit from the Stg 2+ E30 OTS is using throttle angle as a tune control strategy. The Stg 2+ Multimap does this, while the Stg 2+ E30 OTS does not: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=619d...0b43577c34e542

So, after all this, the flexfuel convenience is awesome, but I can't help thinking that I'm leaving power on the table when running E40-50 on the Stg 2+ Multimap vs Stg 2+ E30 OTS since the boost target is lower and there's quite a bit of throttle angle control.

Let me know what you guys are seeing and I'll send our thoughts over to Halim!

[Daleb]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Hey guys, starting up a new thread since a lot of us will probably start trying out the BM3 Multimap Stg 2+ map with PTF's new Flexfuel sensor, and we'll all start reviewing logs to make sure it's working correctly.

First off, the PTF flexfuel sensor is a super easy install. I had no issues, but it's funny how PTF & MHD say it only takes 5-10min. It took me about an hour all-in, including seats in/out, flashing, cleanup, etc., but I also take my time with these things.

Everything seems to be working great and as advertised with the flexfuel sensor and Stg 2+ Multimap. I simply flashed the Stg 2+ Multimap, didn't do any map switching, and let the tune adjust on its own based on the fuel.

I did E47 logs first (below), and then after I added 93 to the tank I let the car idle and it was pretty cool to watch the Emix and blend factor values trend downwards in the BM3 dashboard in real time. It took about 2min of idle for the fuel/tune to stabilize (or, about 1/2mi of easy driving when I readded E85 after all this logging to get back to E30).

First, let's compare the logs:

E47: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61c1...0b431790caf39c
E15: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61c1...90c6576740d434

Quick notes on what I'm seeing are:

--The boost targets are the same but the timing is being reduced with lower Emix. That's how several of us thought this was going to work!
--It also seems the tune is relying more on pulling timing (not just lower timing target) when running a lower Emix while keeping the boost target the same. No knocks or anything, so seems like a good enough tune strategy.
--The HPFP angle also shows the fueling required difference b/n the Emixes, no surprise there.
--One area where this tune differs quite a bit from the Stg 2+ E30 OTS is using throttle angle as a tune control strategy. The Stg 2+ Multimap does this, while the Stg 2+ E30 OTS does not: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=619d...0b43577c34e542

So, after all this, the flexfuel convenience is awesome, but I can't help thinking that I'm leaving power on the table when running E40-50 on the Stg 2+ Multimap vs Stg 2+ E30 OTS since the boost target is lower and there's quite a bit of throttle angle control.

Let me know what you guys are seeing and I'll send our thoughts over to Halim!

Nice to see some logs on the flex fuel maps! I had a look over the logs as well and its interesting.

- Boost looks to be different on the customrom map vs the e30+ map, it looks to taper from 18psi up to 20/21 psi on the customrom vs the 20/21psi flat boost profile of e30+.

-Personally I wouldn't be comfortable letting the car ride the knock sensor and pull timing constantly? That doesn't seem like flex fuel to me... Maybe the timing targets are just too high for the 93/e15 octane and something Halim could clean up.

- Regarding stage 2+ e30 OTS not using throttle angle to control overboost, it does for me, here's a more extreme case to show it https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=613a...0b4330c7eeb238
It could be you are using a newer version compared to me as it seems BM3 have been updating these maps with small updates without officially announcing it. However I've always seen throttle closures at tip in.

-Looking at the logs your e30+ should be stronger vs the MultiMap with flex fuel. You're essentially seeing the same timing with lower boost targets. Hopefully Halim addresses the differences.

On another note it would be cool to see an e50 map like the b58 boys, it seems like most of us run e50 anyways. We will never see anywhere near the same power as them but a little bit more wouldn't hurt.

[ZM2]

The interesting thing is Halim said the Stg 2+ Exx Multimap and Stg 2+ E30 OTS maps should be similar. He's looking into them and will get back to us.

I'll also sneak in a Stg 2+ E50 suggestion then.

[Dec540]

I've just logged with E82 in the tank, unfortunately with a multitude of misfires, resulting in a drivetrain error and a full engine cut out (presumably from cylinder deactivation). I've contacted support to see what they suggest.

It seems my HPFP target is far lower than yours, though from memory both ZM2 and I are running Dorch stage 2 - it makes me think I might need to reflash in case something screwed up in the flash process that's leading to this.

It looks like the HPFP is crashing and resulting in the misfires. I've been running a custom E85 tune for 12+ months now and know for sure that the HPFP can hold circa 3,000 psi all day long, so I very much doubt it's the HPFP crashing due to a fault with it.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61c9...90c604115abb05

[ZM2]

Dec540 Wow, that’s crazy.

You may want to try a full flash, as I had to reflash to get the latest Dorch settings for my HPFP but I’m only Stage 1.

You may want to send the logs to Dorch, as well. Chris is great at helping to review and identify issues.

Please let us know how it goes.

[Wheats1]

Zm2... what do you think about this log? Thanks
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61c8...0b4309abc9f31c

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Wheats1

Zm2... what do you think about this log? Thanks
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61c8...0b4309abc9f31c

What are the details for this log? Is this the multimap? If so, are you using an ethanol sensor or LiveAdjust? Or is this just the regular Stg 2+ E30 OTS? What Emix?

Either way, the log does not look good, IMO. It's safe, no knocks or anything, but target boost and timing is moving around quite a bit and keeps decreasing.

IDK if it's bc you had some wheelspin at the beginning of the log and the rest of the pull is trying to compensate, if you don't have enough ethanol, or if you don't have good enough supporting mods.

[Wheats1]

Regular stage2 plus..
Also probably not enough e85 and did have wheel spin. Thanks, I'll check my other logs and check boost targets
You still loving the new turbo?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Wheats1

Regular stage2 plus..
Also probably not enough e85 and did have wheel spin. Thanks, I'll check my other logs and check boost targets
You still loving the new turbo?

Got it.

Really need at least E40 for that map. And, traction control off and some good grip for the logs--which can be hard for us guys up north in the middle of winter right now!

Halim wants me to do a few single gear pulls on the Stg 2+ Multimap and Stg 2+ E30 OTS to try to narrow down the differences. Will do that later today hopefully.

The TTE460 is rocking! Love it, perfect balance b/n spool, power, and top end for the single turbo N55.

I have a little announcement I'm going to make on Daleb Stg 2+ E30 thread...

[ZM2]

Here's a couple more logs:

Stg 2+ MultiMap with PTF FlexFuel Sensor and E38-39 fuel: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61ca...729b267c1f56ff
Stg 2+ E30 OTS, E40 fuel (same fuel, just mixed up a tiny bit more), Non-LiveAdjusted: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61ca...729b267c1f5714

There’s a little more timing with the Multimap, as expected, but boost target and actual is lower with the Multimap vs OTS and there’s a lot more throttle angle intervention. Plus, the HPFP angle is less overall with the Multimap, showing less fueling need/producing less power.

I asked Halim if we're able to get Stg 2+ E30 OTS like flat boost target and throttle angle within the Multimap, with additional timing added as we add more ethanol and less timing as we switch to just 93 octane.

Will let you all know what I hear.

[Dec540]

Thanks for sharing ZM2!

I reflashed and it seems to have fixed my issues, so far.

Here's a log of a 3rd and most of 4th gear pull. https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61ca...0b430b80e0fd50

Looking at your logs there are some interesting observations.
- My boost target is higher - perhaps it scales up with E content as I have E81 in the tank for this log.
- My timing corrections are strange for such high E content. My custom tune from Cary runs up to 18 degrees of timing with fewer corrections. I'm also getting some post shift timing corrections that it never seems to recover from - https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61ca...0b430b80e0fd50
- The timing & boost for MultiMap Stage2+ with E81 seems similar to the OTS E30
- My HPFP target is still less than yours and less than what Cary runs - seems strange that Dorch Stage 1 would have a higher target than Stage 2.

[ZM2]

Hey Dec540

I believe your higher boost target is bc it's summertime for you and wintertime for me, as your IATs are 40-50F higher than mine. Speaking of, that 27F IAT rise over two gears is pretty wild!

I can't say why you have the 3rd to 4th gear timing corrections, unless maybe you didn't have TC off and got some wheelspin on shift?

Dorch recently changed the Stage 1 target HPFP PSI to ~2900 to help with cold weather chirping, and it has also seemingly given my little Stage 1 a little more headroom, so I'm happy about that.

Regarding the OTS map, do you have some recent logs on the latest Stg 2+ E30 OTS? Your multimap log is doing the same things as mine by not having a flat boost target across the RPMs and has a lot of throttle angle intervention. So, I'm curious if your non-multimap OTS logs look similar to what I posted above.

Originally Posted by Dec540

Thanks for sharing ZM2!

I reflashed and it seems to have fixed my issues, so far.

Here's a log of a 3rd and most of 4th gear pull. https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61ca...0b430b80e0fd50

Looking at your logs there are some interesting observations.
- My boost target is higher - perhaps it scales up with E content as I have E81 in the tank for this log.
- My timing corrections are strange for such high E content. My custom tune from Cary runs up to 18 degrees of timing with fewer corrections. I'm also getting some post shift timing corrections that it never seems to recover from - https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61ca...0b430b80e0fd50
- The timing & boost for MultiMap Stage2+ with E81 seems similar to the OTS E30
- My HPFP target is still less than yours and less than what Cary runs - seems strange that Dorch Stage 1 would have a higher target than Stage 2.

[Dec540]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Hey Dec540

I believe your higher boost target is bc it's summertime for you and wintertime for me, as your IATs are 40-50F higher than mine. Speaking of, that 27F IAT rise over two gears is pretty wild!

I can't say why you have the 3rd to 4th gear timing corrections, unless maybe you didn't have TC off and got some wheelspin on shift?

Dorch recently changed the Stage 1 target HPFP PSI to ~2900 to help with cold weather chirping, and it has also seemingly given my little Stage 1 a little more headroom, so I'm happy about that.

Regarding the OTS map, do you have some recent logs on the latest Stg 2+ E30 OTS? Your multimap log is doing the same things as mine by not having a flat boost target across the RPMs and has a lot of throttle angle intervention. So, I'm curious if your non-multimap OTS logs look similar to what I posted above.

Yeah the IATs weren't really up to normal temp for ambient. The E85 log is a better representation of IAT's - they do rise and fall pretty quickly.

TC was definitely off - perhaps just some learning required by the DME, it was the first pull I did after flashing.

Yeah it could be the ambient temp that is impacting boost targets - a bit hard to say.

I'm not really worried about throttle closures to control boost, it seems far more effective than wastegate management. I typically only look at boost target vs MAP psi as that's a better representation of the post throttle boost vs target.

I don't have any recent logs on E30 but here's an old one - probably about 20f lower ambient temp.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f4e...729b1274224f7a

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Dec540

Yeah the IATs weren't really up to normal temp for ambient. The E85 log is a better representation of IAT's - they do rise and fall pretty quickly.

TC was definitely off - perhaps just some learning required by the DME, it was the first pull I did after flashing.

Yeah it could be the ambient temp that is impacting boost targets - a bit hard to say.

I'm not really worried about throttle closures to control boost, it seems far more effective than wastegate management. I typically only look at boost target vs MAP psi as that's a better representation of the post throttle boost vs target.

I don't have any recent logs on E30 but here's an old one - probably about 20f lower ambient temp.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f4e...729b1274224f7a

Yup, your OTS log is like mine, flat boost target and no throttle angle intervention. Ultimately that is showing the OTS is slightly more powerful unless you run a super high Emix and get a lot more timing advance with the Multimap, since the Multimap seems pretty conservative with its timing scaling.

Either way, will let you all know what Halim says about that, and the upcoming Stg 2+ E50 map.

[Dec540]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Yup, your OTS log is like mine, flat boost target and no throttle angle intervention. Ultimately that is showing the OTS is slightly more powerful unless you run a super high Emix and get a lot more timing advance with the Multimap, since the Multimap seems pretty conservative with its timing scaling.

Either way, will let you all know what Halim says about that, and the upcoming Stg 2+ E50 map.

Depends on what you like I suppose. Personally, I prefer the linearity that comes from the throttle closures feeding boost in, as opposed to the torque from full boost down low and then dying at the top end as the turbo can't keep up. I expect it's also better for engine internals.

Agree with the timing scaling though, given the multimap is running a lot less timing than my custom tune has been running without any issues on the same fuel.

[rtl32]

I asked PTF about using 93 on the stg2+ multimap E30 option with flexfuel on, waiting for the official reply.

Has anybody put straight pump gas in and logged it? Did it lower the timing sufficiently to make this safe even on the 2+ map?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by rtl32

I asked PTF about using 93 on the stg2+ multimap E30 option with flexfuel on, waiting for the official reply.

Has anybody put straight pump gas in and logged it? Did it lower the timing sufficiently to make this safe even on the 2+ map?

Halim said it works, that’s essentially what I did with my E15 log in my first post.

Separately, started working on the Stg 2+ E50 map and possibly updated Stg 2+ Multimap with Halim today. Should have some beta maps available soon.

[rtl32]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Halim said it works, that’s essentially what I did with my E15 log in my first post.

Separately, started working on the Stg 2+ E50 map and possibly updated Stg 2+ Multimap with Halim today. Should have some beta maps available soon.

That's awesome. I'll check how the timing looks just to make sure.

E50 would be great! Thought about that when I saw it come out for b58.

Wonder if my Dorch Stage 1 will be up to the task. Pushing over 40% on the E30 map prior to my sensor install was a recipe for stumbles, very rarely if at all now with flexfuel. But I still keep it mid 30s to be safe. I'm guessing there will be decent fueling changes for the E50 map as you noted (more rail pressure) that could fix that.

[Dec540]

I logged with E16 in the tank today. It was a hot day - the ambient was 32c / 90f. Quite a lot of timing corrections. We get slightly lower fuel quality in Australia so I always ran the 91 Octane maps when I was on pump - perhaps the Multimap Stage 2+ assumes a higher octane for the fuel that isn't ethanol - thus the timing corrections. I.e. it's assuming it's a combination of 93 octane with E16 but in reality, it's closer to 91 octane with E16.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61d5...90c6270085b513

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by Dec540

I logged with E16 in the tank today. It was a hot day - the ambient was 32c / 90f. Quite a lot of timing corrections. We get slightly lower fuel quality in Australia so I always ran the 91 Octane maps when I was on pump - perhaps the Multimap Stage 2+ assumes a higher octane for the fuel that isn't ethanol - thus the timing corrections. I.e. it's assuming it's a combination of 93 octane with E16 but in reality, it's closer to 91 octane with E16.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61d5...90c6270085b513

Yeah, that's not pretty.

There's a whole long conversation related to this on the F30 forum. There's a lot of other topics intermingled in the thread (along with diagnosing some issues with the OPs car), but the gist is it sounds like you're supposed to run the Multimap that includes the worst fuel you'll encounter, which means the Stg 2 M2 Multimap in your case: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1868795

Supposedly the Stg 2 Multimap will scale timing up from Stg 2 91 to whatever Emix you have, but obviously the boost target will be lower than the Stg 2+ Multimap so it likely produces less power with the same Emix.

This is all pretty new, but an open question is would the Stg 2 Multimap scale timing even higher than the Stg 2+ Multimap with the same Emix to make up for Stg 2's reduced boost target so that you can run 91 safely when no ethanol is available but still get max power on say E60? No one knows for sure, bc we haven't seen logs like that to confirm.

The opposite of this, the F30 guys can't even seem to scale bn 93 and Exx on the N55 Stg 2+ Multimap bc 93 isn't an option in their Stg 2+ Mutlimap like it is ours. They only have Stg 2+ E30 and Racegas in their Stg 2+ Multimap. So, they're trying to get Halim to change it to be more like our Stg 2+ Multimap.

So, lots of confusion on all this, but if I were you I'd try the Stg 2 Multimap with just 91 and then a high Emix, and compare those logs to your Stg 2+ Multimap logs with similar fuels to see how they look. It should become clear pretty quick if the Stg 2 Multimap vs the Stg 2+ Multimap is producing less power with a high Emix, at the sacrifice of being able to provide safe FlexFueling.

[ZM2]

Just a quick update that the Multimap put down some good numbers and a very nice-looking curve on the dyno!

Next up I'll increase from E50 to E60-65 and dyno again in a few weeks against an updated Stg 3 E50 beta map that Halim just sent me. Will be interesting to see how much the Multimap curve raises up, and if we can flatten out the Stg 3 E50 beta curve up top.

[TUDMG]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Just a quick update that the Multimap put down some good numbers and a very nice-looking curve on the dyno!

Next up I'll increase from E50 to E60-65 and dyno again in a few weeks against an updated Stg 3 E50 beta map that Halim just sent me. Will be interesting to see how much the Multimap curve raises up, and if we can flatten out the Stg 3 E50 beta curve up top.

Excited to see how it does with more ethanol.

You have the Dinan turbo installed right? I'm doing a very similar setup on my M2, except with a PS2.