08-21-2014, 12:17 PM | #45 |
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Beyond the missing clutch pedal, the difficulty is see with DCTs and autos these days for those that like shifting themselves is that the high number of gears they employ (8 and headed higher) and the way the gears are so closely ratioed to save fuel leaves you having to shift so frequently that eventually it just becomes a chore and you leave it to the car - and your engagement with the experience of driving drops as a result. This process has been reported here and elsewhere by those with 8 speed autos/DCTs.
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08-21-2014, 12:23 PM | #46 | |
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+1 It's so weird how the automatic crowd doesn't get it? I know they think the same of us but the reality is that we are not buying transportation cars. We are buying fun. If we base our choices strictly on numbers, then we should all own Camrys! I hear stupid things about moms buying SUVs for safety....yet they don't handle that well, have lousy visibility and the fact is, minivans have the least fatalities of any car type! Yet they don't buy minivans because they are not cool. It's the same principle with auto. We don't care if IT shifts faster because IT is doing the shifting. I want to do the shifting. Also, the greatest advantage is in 0-60 times which means using launch control, where the IT controls wheelspin and IT shifts for you. I don't want a google car that does it for me! There is no pride in a good launch, 0-60 time when you push a button and mash the throttle! I can't understand how that makes anyone happy. It reminds me of Cristiano Ronaldo jumping up and down, and taking his shirt off on a PENALTY KICK! It's a PENALTY KICK! You have a 99% chance of scoring...there is no pride in that but that is what automated cars do. The joy comes from making the beautiful launch and feeling like the car needs you as much as you need it. You need to time your shifts like a drummer and a monkey couldn't do that! But a monkey put in an automatic and given a treat to mash the throttle could do it! So automatic guys, keep taking your shirts off on penalty kicks but us die hards want to make a beautiful play and score a beautiful goal. |
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08-21-2014, 12:33 PM | #47 | ||
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08-21-2014, 12:56 PM | #48 |
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Audi DCT is a 6-speed. As was the one in my vehicle. And I drove an 8-speed M235. The ratios didn't seem squished together to me. I was console shifting the same way that I did with my old car (6-speed DCT) no more no less.
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08-21-2014, 01:07 PM | #49 |
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I drove manuals for 26 years. Learned to drive car with a manual. That crap gets old after a while sry. And once I experienced a DCT there was no turning back. I'm also an avid motorcyclist (been riding since 14 years old)
prior vehicles: 1988 Ford Escort GT - 5 Speed manual 1990 Eagle Talon TSI -5 Speed manual 1995 Mistu Eclipse GSX - 5- Speed manual 1998 Audi A4 1.8t - 5 -Speed manual 2001 BMW 330i - 5 -speed maunual in 1996 I had a clunker automatic for a year (got my own place) Current (sold): 2008 Evo X MR. 6-Speed DCT. I'm never going back to the old-school tranny sry. |
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08-21-2014, 02:31 PM | #50 |
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The DCT in my 135i does not bounce off the limiter. It upshifts even in M mode. This has been criticized as not being optimal at the track for some driving styles.
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08-21-2014, 02:37 PM | #51 |
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I don't get how you don't get that those of you who want to own a manual are in the minority (by a large amount). You're severely limiting the "fun" you can have because you're being narrow-minded and writing off cars simply because they don't offer a manual. Pretty soon there will be maybe 2 performance cars in the world that come in manual while the rest of us are having fun in our DCTs. And I actually see a lot more women than men now actively looking to drive manuals.
As I said I think every car should offer a manual and an automatic tranny but the reality is that for the OEMs the ROI just isn't there to put in the R&D to put in a manual since very few are buying them. If you give me a manual and an auto for a short period of time, then sure i'd love to drive a manual, but owning one day in and day out is tedious. And the DCTs are so good now that I really don't miss manual at all. It's still fun to drive a manual every once in awhile but it's not a necessity for me. I love banging out shifts from a DCT like I'm firing bullets from a bolt-action rifle and being able to focus on driving lines rather than worrying about shifting from 2nd to 3rd instead of 2nd to 5th on a sloppy gearbox when I'm in hurry to shift gears TBH, I can drive either manual or auto and I'd probably slightly prefer the manual on a nice open road but if the car I want is only offered in auto, there's no way I'm writing it off just because of that. |
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08-21-2014, 03:46 PM | #53 |
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The DCT in my old EVO X MR wouldn't shift by itself in manual mode. There were times when I nailed it thinking I was in auto, expecting it to shift. But I was in manual and it just bounced off the rev limiter like crazy. Killing my drive. lol
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08-22-2014, 01:28 AM | #54 | |
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RS3, should be respected and if you love automatics, deserves BMW's respect, but if only automatic, moving on. Sorry, call it closed minded whatever... I do it every day...I see ad for M3 or 1M that says "Loaded" I move on. Don't care what it says... Loaded is a bad word in my automotive mind. .. I see a girl showing me her ex Boyfriend tattoo on her forehead..sorry, moving on...yeah close minded! She's probably a really nice girl if I get to know her but lost interest. |
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08-22-2014, 07:16 AM | #55 | |
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Seriously, give me a break, you will grow to appreciate the finer things in life, including DCT's. Last edited by Wilson; 08-22-2014 at 07:22 AM.. |
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08-22-2014, 08:17 AM | #56 | |
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08-22-2014, 11:33 AM | #57 | |
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08-22-2014, 11:47 AM | #58 | |
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Manuals make you part of the machine... part of the cogs. You are part of the machine... Automatics, are nil and for those who can't be bothered with visceral, or intimacy... they just want to steer the ship, not be part of it. |
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08-22-2014, 12:13 PM | #59 | |
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08-22-2014, 12:49 PM | #60 | |
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I bought the first dct on the market in the wife's GTi! This was even before Porsche and BMW offered it. So I feel pretty confident that it was before you even tried one. Since it seems like you prefer the finer things so you wouldn't find yourself slumming in a VW. I was excited about it as an alternative to the Slush box and paid my hard earned money for it. It was ok then and I gave it a try. It's been almost 8 years now so I feel confident enough now to know I still prefer a manual. Even funnier my wife drove my zhp recently and commented that she gets it now why I still prefer MT. The finer things for me and about 10 other guys in the world is feeling connected and doing something different. Everything is cushy electronic now and I want something different. And yes I drink black coffee not triple espresso machiattos. I also do other quaint old school things like rotate my own tires and work on my cars for fun! Imagine that! |
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08-22-2014, 01:35 PM | #61 |
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08-22-2014, 02:03 PM | #63 |
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08-22-2014, 03:41 PM | #64 | |
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I've owned a ton (six) of manual cars. The DSG GTI was the only other automatic I've owned, and I can tell you that I much prefer the DCT to DSG. DSG is wired up like an automatic. You put the car in D and go. BMW's DCT is a little different in a couple of important ways: 1) The gear-shifter isn't a traditional automatic slider. It's not even the traditional BMW auto-selector. It's a four way, with very tight feel, and great ergonomics. It feels great when you use it to shift gears. It feels so great I find myself using it more than I do the paddles. Why? Same reason you (and I) prefer a manual; because of the extra engagement I feel when doing so. 2) DCT defaults to manual. When you slap the gear selector to the right, you're in manual mode by default. My car was coded by the previous owner, so maybe this isn't the default, but I absolutely love it. Defaulting to manual mode means that the car feels like it's a manual, but with the option to drive auto. I have to go through extra effort to be lazy. 3) DCT does a great job skipping gears. This was impossible with the DSG, and it's another huge difference. For example, if I slap three quick downshifts, the car goes from 7 to 4. It might be hitting the gears in between, but I can't feel them. I hated the sequential nature of DSG. It was one of the biggest reasons I drove it in D most of the time. 4) DCT has five shift programs. I can't stress how important this is. I was generally very pleased with the DSG transmission in my VW, but I found myself using it in auto mode more often than not because there was only one manual shift program. I can change DCT to shift any way I want. I alternate between S3 and S4 programs. When I really want to have some fun, my M-Drive button is programmed to S5. The difference in all these programs is really significant. It's not just how fast it shifts. For example, in S3, downshifts don't blip if you're below a certain RPM. They downshift lazily like you would in a manual. Bump it up to S4, and you get nice blips on downshifts, but the shift speed isn't so harsh that it makes you cringe with each shift. All of these factors add up to a lot of engagement. It's engagement of a different type, but as someone who was a die-hard manual addict, I've been really impressed with the DCT in my M3. I'm not sure I'd spec it on my next car, but I don't shit on it like I used to. I can understand why someone would choose it.
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08-22-2014, 06:41 PM | #65 | |
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oh yeah. I absolutely loved the BMW 8-speed Auto. Didn't really feel any different than a DCT imo. Though I have heard that the gear shifts gets sluggish when the transmission gets really warm. |
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08-22-2014, 09:59 PM | #66 | |
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The DCT wins in the ability to skip-shift (I wasn't able to get the ZF8 to do this), in adjustability, and in overall responsiveness when manually shifting. When cranked up to the max (S5), the DCT will bounce off the rev limiter. It will grab gears immediately when you tell it to. It doesn't second guess you. Unless, of course, you're asking the car to shift outside of a range that the engine can even run (over redline or at an RPM that would stall). The DCT also feels different. This is a hard one to quantify. The DCT feels like driving a manual transmission to me. It comes down to the lack of a torque converter. Even a very good torque converter still feels like a torque converter. The dual-clutch in the DCT feels like a clutch. My poor dad (also a manual driver for most of his life, and a committed gear-head) was so confused. He asked me, "Is that clutch slip I feel?" And that was from the passenger seat. I hadn't explained the transmission to him yet. As far as he knew, it was an automatic, but he identified the sensation between the sound, and the feel of the uptake when pulling away from a stop sign. Anyway, this has been a real digression I've very much enjoyed owning a DCT car. It has been a contrast to the manual transmissions I'm used to driving, and has introduced me to learning new techniques after all these years of car ownership. I find it laughable when people (not you) imply that DCT drivers aren't "true enthusiasts".
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