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View Poll Results: Will Donald Trump be Impeached or will this blowback on Biden
Orange Trump bad. Trump gone. 45 28.13%
Trump Trump-umphant. 57 35.63%
Inclusive 13 8.13%
Biden C4'd to oblivion. 48 30.00%
Biden grows in strength and gets shot in the arm for nomination. 8 5.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 160. You may not vote on this poll

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      10-14-2019, 07:29 PM   #1035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
She wasn't using her official government email. This was a central fact in the Clinton email scandal. She didn't put her government email on her personal server; she decided to use an unauthorized email so she had control of the information.
As her predecessors had done. Careless, wreckless, unauthorized, all of the above. Trying to find where it crossed into being illegal.

Still haven't got there yet. Not saying she shouldn't have done it, but where is the actual crime?
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      10-14-2019, 07:34 PM   #1036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
She wasn't using her official government email. This was a central fact in the Clinton email scandal. She didn't put her government email on her personal server; she decided to use an unauthorized email so she had control of the information.
As her predecessors had done. Careless, wreckless, unauthorized, all of the above. Trying to find where it crossed into being illegal.

Still haven't got there yet. Not saying she shouldn't have done it, but where is the actual crime?
Let's put aside the crimes she committed for a moment. Having the Secretary of State keeping such high-level information in such an insecure location resulted in risking national security. People want to blow this off like she rolled through a stop sign. This isn't trivial.
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      10-15-2019, 07:43 AM   #1037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
She wasn't using her official government email. This was a central fact in the Clinton email scandal. She didn't put her government email on her personal server; she decided to use an unauthorized email so she had control of the information.
Right, that was lazy verbiage on my part.

My point being that "hiding" any CGI email is completely separate from how she chose to communicate in her role as SecState.

The two roles were already separate.
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      10-15-2019, 08:20 AM   #1038
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I just know I am not reading about Hillary Clinton in the Trump Impeachment thread LMFAO! Last I heard... She lost the election several years ago and is essentially history at this point in time.

"LOOK... Over there... A Squirrel!"

Now in more current and relevant news: How about we sum up this Impeachment Inquiry and the equal relevancy of the Republicans blind if not disastrous support of this corrupt individual.
If you knew absolutely zero about what is currently happening, (say you were from another planet with no news source) here is a perfectly written and factual account of where things stand today. Relatively short and sweet...

Quote:
Trump Republicans Are Working Overtime at the Excuse Factory—and Embarrassing Themselves More Every Day
As more damning information trickles out about Donald Trump, the president’s apologists must constantly manufacture alternate excuses for defending the indefensible. Lately, I’ve started hearing one that goes something like this: Sure, what Trump did was “inappropriate” and wrong—but it isn’t impeachable.

At first blush, the sounds both plausible and nuanced. One could surely imagine a scenario where a president does something that is bad but not bad enough to warrant removal from office. In fact, it happens all the time. It was often said—by Democrats, and even by a number of Republicans—of Bill Clinton. What is more, one might even be tempted to congratulate these honest Republicans for making this brave concession. Of course, it’s not bravery, but desperation, which leads one to grasp for what is the last possible argument to settle on after all the better ones have been tried and abandoned.

The only problem is that this is an intellectually dishonest and untenable position.

To recap…

Donald Trump and his personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, admitted to urging Ukraine to launch an investigation into Joe Biden. A partial “transcript” released by the White House confirmed this. This favor just so happened to be requested at the same time the U.S. was postponing the transfer of vital aid to Ukraine. Text messages given to Congress by a former U.S. diplomat also confirm this.

What is more, there are reports that Trump told China he would look the other way on Hong Kong in return for cooperation in the trade war. Trump also suggested they should investigate Joe Biden. Trump confirmed this when he publicly asked China to investigate the Bidens, and a Trump adviser later told the Financial Times that he got “quite a bit of background on Hunter Biden from the Chinese.”

But if that isn’t enough for you, throw in the Russia stuff (Trump was clearly willing to collude, even if didn’t happen), the fact that Trump paid off a porn star, has consistently violated the emoluments clause, and the fact that he has abandoned the Kurds to their slaughter—each of which alone would be worthy, in my estimation, of impeachment.

So based on all of this established evidence, and the notion that what Trump did was bad but not bad enough to impeach him, I’m left wondering: If Trump’s behavior isn’t worthy of impeachment and removal, then what behavior would constitute removal?

It’s hard to imagine a president doing anything more egregious or impeachment-worthy than using the power and prestige of his office to coerce a foreign government into digging up dirt on the president’s domestic political rival and try to influence the outcome of a presidential election.

Luckily, many of us remember the last time a president was impeached—back when some of Trump’s current defenders (including Senator Lindsey Graham) were involved in pushing or prosecuting the Clinton impeachment trial.

Can anyone honestly suggest that what Trump has done is less impeachable than what Clinton did? Forget the sex and the lying about sex. At the time, Graham said that a failure to comply with subpoenas was, itself, an impeachable act.

Today, Trump’s White House is instructing people who aren’t even inside his administration not to comply with a congressional investigation.


Ultimately, the idea that Trump is guilty of doing the aforementioned bad things, yet these bad things aren’t worthy of removing him from office, leaves us to conclude that literally nothing is bad enough to remove him from office.

That’s why this line is yet another of the plausible-sounding, but perniciously misleading lines that Republicans are throwing out as they try to come to terms with the fact that there is no intellectually honest way to confront the obvious reality that Trump is guilty, and yet oppose impeachment and removal from office.

To help conservatives understand the logical fallacy they are now invested in, I’m reminded of a famous dilemma that some of Trump’s supporters might be familiar with.

Having grown tired of hearing that Jesus was a good moral teacher but not the savior, Christian apologist C.S. Lewis postulated the idea that these two things were mutually exclusive. Jesus, Lewis pointed out, went around telling people he was the savior. As such, “Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse.” Lewis concluded, “There is no nice middle ground that we can settle on.”

The same logical rule applies to Trump’s high crimes and misdemeanors. He is either innocent, or he’s a madman or something worse. There is no middle ground to settle on.

The fact that nobody can honestly dispute Trump’s culpability is, hence, a tacit admission that he should be removed from office. But the fact that so many Republicans still see Trump as their earthly savior—a man who is being crucified, unfairly—explains why the rules of logic continue to elude them.

But the fact that no one can honestly defend Trump doesn’t mean that he has no defenders. His many apologists include names like Jim Jordan, Laura Ingraham, and Kevin McCarthy—all of them insisting that the readout of the Ukraine call doesn’t say what it says, that we should believe them and not our lying eyes.

It’s mind-boggling until you realize that they are in “circle the wagons” mode. The truth doesn’t matter. They’re casting about desperately for arguments.

And they’re running out of excuses.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rep...085000708.html
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      10-15-2019, 08:48 AM   #1039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
As her predecessors had done. Careless, wreckless, unauthorized, all of the above. Trying to find where it crossed into being illegal.

Still haven't got there yet. Not saying she shouldn't have done it, but where is the actual crime?

You keep coming back to this and I keep throwing US Code at you, so I am not sure why it isn't sinking in. It is a proven fact, through documented FBI Investigative evidence, that she took classified material (including documents that were labeled Top Secret) and removed them from a secure facility and brought them to an unsecured facility - namely, her personal server at home. There is no ambiguity here.

The law that makes this illegal is set forth in U.S. Code § 1924.Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material.

Specifically, this exact section:

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

She took information, knowing it was classified, and and removed it without authority from the secure and authorized location.

Period. Full stop.

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      10-15-2019, 08:49 AM   #1040
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSTYLE View Post
I just know I am not reading about Hillary Clinton in the Trump Impeachment thread LMFAO! Last I heard... She lost the election several years ago and is essentially history at this point in time.

"LOOK... Over there... A Squirrel!"

Now in more current and relevant news: How about we sum up this Impeachment Inquiry and the equal relevancy of the Republicans blind if not disastrous support of this corrupt individual.
If you knew absolutely zero about what is currently happening, (say you were from another planet with no news source) here is a perfectly written and factual account of where things stand today. Relatively short and sweet...



https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rep...085000708.html
FWIW - I disagree with both - I don't think Clinton should have been impeached, either.
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      10-15-2019, 08:57 AM   #1041
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Yessir! Some real journalism - YAHOO
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      10-15-2019, 09:12 AM   #1042
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Yessir! Some real journalism - YAHOO
Why did I know you'd be the first to say that?

Forget the source. The article and it's content are pure factual.
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      10-15-2019, 09:14 AM   #1043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSTYLE View Post
I just know I am not reading about Hillary Clinton in the Trump Impeachment thread LMFAO! Last I heard... She lost the election several years ago and is essentially history at this point in time.

"LOOK... Over there... A Squirrel!"

Now in more current and relevant news: How about we sum up this Impeachment Inquiry and the equal relevancy of the Republicans blind if not disastrous support of this corrupt individual.
If you knew absolutely zero about what is currently happening, (say you were from another planet with no news source) here is a perfectly written and factual account of where things stand today. Relatively short and sweet...



https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-rep...085000708.html
Do you really find this article unbiased? Personally I think it leans heavy towards the anti trump crowd, but I do find it fascinating how people perceive different things.
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      10-15-2019, 09:23 AM   #1044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
You keep coming back to this and I keep throwing US Code at you, so I am not sure why it isn't sinking in. It is a proven fact, through documented FBI Investigative evidence, that she took classified material (including documents that were labeled Top Secret) and removed them from a secure facility and brought them to an unsecured facility - namely, her personal server at home. There is no ambiguity here.

The law that makes this illegal is set forth in U.S. Code § 1924.Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material.

Specifically, this exact section:

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

She took information, knowing it was classified, and and removed it without authority from the secure and authorized location.

Period. Full stop.

Does a secretary level position meet the definition of officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States?

employee
(4) Employee defined .— For purposes of this subsection, the term “employee” includes any individual performing work as a contractor or consultant for an employer.

Is sending a classified email considered removal?

I read up on the classified emails and it appears that they were not marked as classified. Mismarked, intent not there. Security incident. If somebody really wanted to push the issue as a crime I could see that. For you or I, absolutely would be considered for a crime. For the Secretary, likely not. If there really was anything that could be prosecuted it would.
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      10-15-2019, 09:31 AM   #1045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSTYLE View Post
Why did I know you'd be the first to say that?

Forget the source. The article and it's content are pure factual.
I’m just backing you up, my man! Idk how these Trumpsters can’t see it. In addition to the Ukraine situation he committed the second Holocaust at the border camps - he could at least have thrown a couple crackers and a space blanket at them like Obama did! His Climate change denial has shortened our lifespans by easily 90 years, my wife and I are so scared we may not even have kids!
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      10-15-2019, 10:07 AM   #1046
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Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
For the Secretary, likely not. If there really was anything that could be prosecuted it would.
Please tell me you don't really have that much faith in our government?

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      10-15-2019, 10:37 AM   #1047
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartandhp

Exclusive: Trump lawyer Giuliani was paid $500,000 to consult on indicted associate's firm



Rudy, Igor, Lev. Throw in some Firtash, and you have a real party!
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      10-15-2019, 10:57 AM   #1048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
Does a secretary level position meet the definition of officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States?

employee
(4) Employee defined .— For purposes of this subsection, the term “employee” includes any individual performing work as a contractor or consultant for an employer.

Is sending a classified email considered removal?

I read up on the classified emails and it appears that they were not marked as classified. Mismarked, intent not there. Security incident. If somebody really wanted to push the issue as a crime I could see that. For you or I, absolutely would be considered for a crime. For the Secretary, likely not. If there really was anything that could be prosecuted it would.
Mr. Comey said they ELECTED NOT TO INDICT. The converse of this seems to be that she was indictable. She clearly should have been indicted per the code Run Silent put up and you are correct about us in the peon class: we would have been done and dusted.

Cheers-mk
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Hell, I get random sausage attacks when I go anywhere.

Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond...

Fair and objective hearings don't take place in secret.
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      10-15-2019, 12:01 PM   #1049
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Mr. Comey said they ELECTED NOT TO INDICT. The converse of this seems to be that she was indictable. She clearly should have been indicted per the code Run Silent put up and you are correct about us in the peon class: we would have been done and dusted.

Cheers-mk
Should or could I guess is a matter of opinion. Definitely could, should? Well, I would be fine with that too as long as the standard is applied evenly going forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Please tell me you don't really have that much faith in our government?

That is a different matter entirely.

Thank you for posting the relevant sections of code though, I wanted to go through it and look at it in a real world case study. I get that this is off topic as far as this thread goes but most of this is just noise anyhow so why not.
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      10-15-2019, 01:20 PM   #1050
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Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
I get that this is off topic as far as this thread goes but most of this is just noise anyhow so why not.
We will have NONE of this "going off-topic" in any OT threads, it just isn't done. Attached is your wet-noodling
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      10-15-2019, 11:41 PM   #1051
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Pelosi again declines to officially pursue a real impeachment and will instead continue her phoney closed door inquiries. And we all know why. Nancy knows the lay of the land and any real attempt at impeachment at this point in time will fail, but she needs to keep the deranged Trump-hating segment of her party energized so will continue to feed them scraps. Scraps of hope lol

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/15/hous...se-sought.html
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      10-16-2019, 08:13 AM   #1052
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Another question: When its truly clear that an impeachment would fail by the majority of the Reps into senate and at the end it is clear that the whole attempt wouldn't do anything… Are the citizens allowed to vote for or against impeachment if politics fails to decide? I mean, c'mon, if my party holds more than the half of seats, what I have to fear at the end?
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      10-16-2019, 08:20 AM   #1053
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Another question: When its truly clear that an impeachment would fail by the majority of the Reps into senate and at the end it is clear that the whole attempt wouldn't do anything… Are the citizens allowed to vote for or against impeachment if politics fails to decide? I mean, c'mon, if my party holds more than the half of seats, what I have to fear at the end?
We, the citizens, impeach by voting them out of office or through a recall election. That is our remedy.
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Hell, I get random sausage attacks when I go anywhere.

Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond...

Fair and objective hearings don't take place in secret.
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      10-16-2019, 08:22 AM   #1054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriphill View Post
Pelosi again declines to officially pursue a real impeachment and will instead continue her phoney closed door inquiries. And we all know why. Nancy knows the lay of the land and any real attempt at impeachment at this point in time will fail, but she needs to keep the deranged Trump-hating segment of her party energized so will continue to feed them scraps. Scraps of hope lol

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/15/hous...se-sought.html
It appears to me like the corrupt House Democrats planned to spend all autumn pushing lies about the phone call with President Z. President Trump blew that up by releasing the transcript, so now they're huddling up to regroup and organize their next attack on our democracy.
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      10-16-2019, 08:24 AM   #1055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriphill View Post
Pelosi again declines to officially pursue a real impeachment and will instead continue her phoney closed door inquiries. And we all know why. Nancy knows the lay of the land and any real attempt at impeachment at this point in time will fail, but she needs to keep the deranged Trump-hating segment of her party energized so will continue to feed them scraps. Scraps of hope lol

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/15/hous...se-sought.html
It appears to me like the corrupt House Democrats planned to spend all autumn pushing lies about the phone call with President Z. President Trump blew that up by releasing the transcript, so now they're huddling up to regroup and organize their next attack on our democracy.
The Transcript does not lie.
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      10-16-2019, 08:51 AM   #1056
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The Transcript does not lie.
Then why are they scared to formally vote on impeachment?

Then why are they scared to allow cross-examination of witnesses by the minority party?

Then why did Schiff have to lie and make up a pretend transcript to read to the public?

Then why are they scared to let the minority party issue subpoenas as well?

Then why are they scared to just wait 13mos and let the voters decide?



I think we all know why......
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