[Poochie]

Hey OP, long time.. Hope all is well..

With a handle like Capt. Obvious, I figured it would be clear to you that off that short list, if you're not after a manual tranny and have pockets deep enough for one, the electric Taycan, with its "Turbo S" performance, is the car to have..

It has the extra space you desire, 4 doors and a mind-numbing, instant and constant torque pull, which could double as a daily driver and a sports car, yet you never have a visit a gas pump.

I know the G8X is a performer but I personally believe its appearance will not age very well and predict that BMW will drastically revamp its front end, on the future LCIs, causing the early adoptions to take a nose dive in value - if that matters to one..

You'll maintain a higher residual with the Porsche and as a result, save a lot more when your fickle taste is ready to dump it in two years..

[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Hey OP, long time.. Hope all is well..

With a handle like Capt. Obvious, I figured it would be clear to you that off that short list, if you're not after a manual tranny and have pockets deep enough for one, the electric Taycan, with its "Turbo S" performance, is the car to have..

It has the extra space you desire, 4 doors and a mind-numbing, instant and constant torque pull, which could double as a daily driver and a sports car, yet you never have a visit a gas pump.

I know the G8X is a performer but I personally believe its appearance will not age very well and predict that BMW will drastically revamp its front end, on the future LCIs, causing the early adoptions to take a nose dive in value - if that matters to one..

You'll maintain a higher residual with the Porsche and as a result, save a lot more when your fickle taste is ready to dump it in two years..

Poochie!

Was wondering where the hell you were! Typically, I expect every other post to be from you, and yet it took several days for you to show up. Come on, man, you're losing your touch!

The Taycan RWD is really a crazy anomaly to me. I mean, prior to its introduction, the only EV you could get that had good performance at a "reasonable" price was the Tesla. But, if you get a Tesla, a) you're signaling that you're a limousine liberal (hey, come on, no flames, just joking around...), and b) you're settling for the ugliest car on the market next to the Aztek, and c) build quality issues. There was no EV in the marketplace that, I would argue, could reasonably be a direct competitor to the M3 or C63 and what-have-you. But, now, you've got the Taycan which is "only" $90k versus the M3C at $80k. I mean, I always vowed that I would NEVER get an EV, that I would stick with ICE until they pried my cold dead fingers off the ICE steering wheel, but at least on paper, the Taycan RWD has me questioning my original faith.

Most responses in this thread so far indicate that folks aren't that tempted by the value proposition - only scoale and Poochie and myself, it seems.

One other thing really holding me back from jumping on the EV bandwagon is that I'm ultimately not convinced that EVs are the future. Hydrocarbons are simply a much denser and more practical form of energy for transportation. Legislation / regulation can kill off the ICE, but the market will always value it. As such, you can imagine a world in which synthetic fuels get around the crazy regulatory quagmire, and end up killing off EVs...

Whatever... I'll stop rambling. It's time for a couple of test drives!

[scoale]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

Poochie!

Was wondering where the hell you were! Typically, I expect every other post to be from you, and yet it took several days for you to show up. Come on, man, you're losing your touch!

The Taycan RWD is really a crazy anomaly to me. I mean, prior to its introduction, the only EV you could get that had good performance at a "reasonable" price was the Tesla. But, if you get a Tesla, a) you're signaling that you're a limousine liberal (hey, come on, no flames, just joking around...), and b) you're settling for the ugliest car on the market next to the Aztek, and c) build quality issues. There was no EV in the marketplace that, I would argue, could reasonably be a direct competitor to the M3 or C63 and what-have-you. But, now, you've got the Taycan which is "only" $90k versus the M3C at $80k. I mean, I always vowed that I would NEVER get an EV, that I would stick with ICE until they pried my cold dead fingers off the ICE steering wheel, but at least on paper, the Taycan RWD has me questioning my original faith.

Most responses in this thread so far indicate that folks aren't that tempted by the value proposition - only scoale and Poochie and myself, it seems.

Whatever... I'll stop rambling. It's time for a couple of test drives!

After driving the Taycan I am certain EVs are going to be compelling for majority within 10 years. Given performance of current Taycan, imagine what next gen will be like.

[AlpsRider]

Since your family situation is tempting you to go with 4 doors and taking into consideration the kid hauling stuff, the Taycan does come to mind. I saw a Taycan on the road just yesterday. It looks big but then so does the M3. The Taycan also looks special. I suppose you live in an EV friendly region which gives even more weight to the Taycan. I haven't driven one but it definitely has presence on the road, it looks expensive. I was driving in the canyons yesterday and came across a charging station with 6 hookups out in the middle of nowhere...I was shocked to see a charging station up on a mountain road. It's getting easier and easier to go EV in some parts of the country.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by Tag

Sometimes I wonder if the reviewers that gloss over the grilles are doing so as not to strain their relationship with BMW. I have not seen the M3 in person, but did see an M4 a week ago and did a walk around. You can read my thoughts here and here. If however you like/love the car and it checks all the boxes off for you that's all that matters.

Of course they do. These guys get press cars from BMW and have to stay on their good side. There are several well known reviewers that strain to say nice things because they know they may as well, so they aren't the last to get the next press car.

[Nettles]

Did you start a cbd company or something? Hahaha crazy to go from not being able to afford an M2c to owning a cayman t and debating how to spend another $80k-$90k

[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by Nettles

Did you start a cbd company or something? Hahaha crazy to go from not being able to afford an M2c to owning a cayman t and debating how to spend another $80k-$90k

Ha! I wish!

Nah, just super, super neurotic about money is all. Lost my job last year, and suddenly had all these nightmares of my family ending up living under a bridge. So, the "responsible" thing to do was to sell the M2C - after all, it was depreciating ~$1k/month, sitting in the driveway, with no job to commute to. Fast forward to today, I have a job I love that pays better than the previous one, so now I guess I'm spending money like it's going out of fashion.

It is funny how the human brain works. You end up taking today's situation and projecting out to eternity. Without a job, you think, "Oh my god, what if I remain unemployed for the rest of my life?" And, as a result, in your crazed brain, no matter how much you have saved up, you don't have enough money, and you'll end up homeless.

Anyway, I'm really kicking myself for having sold the M2C. I LOVED that car. My wife was giving me a hard time about it just yesterday, saying that she fully expects me to end up buying another one. And, six months ago, she even said, "Don't sell it. You know that if you do, you're just going to end up buying another one." Her actual quote: "What lesson did we learn? Always listen to your wife."

[Nettles]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

Ha! I wish!

Nah, just super, super neurotic about money is all. Lost my job last year, and suddenly had all these nightmares of my family ending up living under a bridge. So, the "responsible" thing to do was to sell the M2C - after all, it was depreciating ~$1k/month, sitting in the driveway, with no job to commute to. Fast forward to today, I have a job I love that pays better than the previous one, so now I guess I'm spending money like it's going out of fashion.

It is funny how the human brain works. You end up taking today's situation and projecting out to eternity. Without a job, you think, "Oh my god, what if I remain unemployed for the rest of my life?" And, as a result, in your crazed brain, no matter how much you have saved up, you don't have enough money, and you'll end up homeless.

Anyway, I'm really kicking myself for having sold the M2C. I LOVED that car. My wife was giving me a hard time about it just yesterday, saying that she fully expects me to end up buying another one. And, six months ago, she even said, "Don't sell it. You know that if you do, you're just going to end up buying another one." Her actual quote: "What lesson did we learn? Always listen to your wife."

Happy wife, happy life sir!!! Enjoy the next purchase.

[akkando]

There is plenty of time to buy an EV in the future. Tech for EVs is improving at a faster rate than ICE so they next gen EVs will probably have a large leap in terms of battery life, self driving, etc.

ICE cars on the other hand, I doubt the next M3 has a MT or a 6 cylinder. Probably will be hybrid 4 cylinder like the upcoming c63.

[Steelguin]

I want to like it.

The grill and the mirrors are just so bad. I would be annoyed at having to replace all that on a brand new car. As these sit on lots, I wonder if BMW will rethink this direction.

[MMMBRAP]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

Gentlemen (and I use the term loosely),

Would love your thoughts and opinions and rants with regard to what vehicle I should purchase next.

Some context: I owned a HS DCT M2C for 2 years, but had to sell it back in September of last year. Absolutely loved it, and it broke my heart to part with it. Since then, financial situation has gotten much better, and I recently purchased a 6MT Cayman T, and love it. However, every time I have to drive my kids anywhere, I have to take them in my wife's 1.4L 2016 Jetta, which boasts a whopping 140HP. I want to gouge my eyeballs out every time I get in that damn car. So, I realize now that for my own sanity, I may need to expand the stable.

Here are the 2 cars I've been looking at. What do you think?

1. M3 Competition - When I spec it out on the configurator, I end up ~$80k
2. Taycan RWD - When I spec it out, I end up ~$90k

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

Taycan, all day long.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by MMMBRAP

Taycan, all day long.

Exactly! Such a no brainer, if you can swing it.

This reminds of that time I was trying to decide on a sporty car; a M2 or a Lamborghini Murcielago.

Luckily, a lack of $304,968.67 made that decision real easy.

[W///]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

This is going to be absolutely heretical, but I actually REALLY like the look of the new M3. Even more heretical, I like the fact that it's a "baby M5." And what's absolutely amazing to me is that EVERY professional car review I've read or watched on YouTube has confirmed the hypothesis I threw out when we first saw the buck-toothed beaver grill - new designs are polarizing, but after time, people get acclimated and tend to come around. Of the 25 videos or articles I've consumed recently, only Doug Demuro talks about how he can't stand the look. Every other reviewer says, "I really don't mind the grills. They're much smaller in person." Too funny.

But, every single review I've read or watched thus far talks about how awesome the car is to drive. I think next step is to go test drive each.

Have any of you guys test driven the Taycan? Any thoughts, positive or negative?

My choice would be the M3 pretty easily. The M3 feels like the end game when it comes to the last ICE sedans, whereas the Teslas/Taycans are at the beginning. Add to the fact that the car can be had with a 6MT (probably not relevant to you) makes it almost a must have for me, although I'm patiently waiting for G87.

I've had a chance to drive the Taycan 4S and was super impressed with it in many regards. However, I think an electric car is only a complimentary car to an ICE car as is. For me, it would be more about convenience than fun, because I still view them as 1 trick ponies.

Originally Posted by Tag

Sometimes I wonder if the reviewers that gloss over the grilles are doing so as not to strain their relationship with BMW. I have not seen the M3 in person, but did see an M4 a week ago and did a walk around. You can read my thoughts here and here. If however you like/love the car and it checks all the boxes off for you that's all that matters.

Not sure what reviews you're seeing, but the majority of them do mention the front end (Chris Harris, Edmunds and others come to mind). As a matter of fact, all of them say "if" you can handle the front end, then it's a good car.

Personally, I've really warmed up to it. It's still not love at first sight, but I at least understand what they were trying to accomplish. However, I expect love at first sight when it comes to this kind of money, which is why I'm waiting for G87. But if I absolutely had to have 4 doors, then there's really nothing that fits the bill like a G80.

[veenut28]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Hey OP, long time.. Hope all is well..

With a handle like Capt. Obvious, I figured it would be clear to you that off that short list, if you're not after a manual tranny and have pockets deep enough for one, the electric Taycan, with its "Turbo S" performance, is the car to have..

It has the extra space you desire, 4 doors and a mind-numbing, instant and constant torque pull, which could double as a daily driver and a sports car, yet you never have a visit a gas pump.

I know the G8X is a performer but I personally believe its appearance will not age very well and predict that BMW will drastically revamp its front end, on the future LCIs, causing the early adoptions to take a nose dive in value - if that matters to one..

You'll maintain a higher residual with the Porsche and as a result, save a lot more when your fickle taste is ready to dump it in two years..

But if he's looking at the RWD Taycan, the catch is that particular model (the "base" if you can call a $90k car that) doesn't have the whiplash-inducing torque of the other models. I think the 4s is the sweet spot in the range personally. Instantaneous torque can be nauseating at a certain point.

[Davil]

Watch these 2 videos. The Taycan one is particularly enlightening. Massive difference in performance between the various models.

[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by Davil

Watch these 2 videos. The Taycan one is particularly enlightening. Massive difference in performance between the various models.

Awesome, sir! Thank you! I just subscribed to his channel. Can't believe I've never seen it before. Really high quality content.

[cptobvious]

Okay, so, I've done quite a bit more research, and I think I know what's next now. It's either going to be the M3C or the G87 M2. It is definitely NOT going to be the Taycan. Thank you all for your insights and comments. Super helpful!

I know I probably shouldn't, but below is some new thinking based on conversations I've had with some economists, technology strategists, and others about ICE versus EV, etc., etc. I know this isn't an economics forum, but thought I'd share, just in case anyone's interested. Very wonkish, so probably not to everyone's taste, but has very important implications for the whole "EVs are the future" worry amongst us enthusiasts. And this is primarily why I’ve decided against getting the Taycan - if EV truly is the future, why not jump on board now? But, if it ain’t the future, makes no sense to buy an EV.


TLDR: EVs will not be the future. ICE is here to stay. So, don't worry, be happy


1) Governments are passing all sorts of regulations designed to kill petrol and traditional fossil fuels, under the cover of “environmentalism.” As a result, there has been much rending of garments and gnashing of teeth amongst all of us ICE enthusiasts

2) But, what if you had a hydrocarbon fuel that could go into ICE vehicles and existing infrastructure (gas stations) that had exactly the same environmental impact profile as EVs - meaning ZERO emissions?

3) This hypothetical zero emission hydrocarbon fuel would a) just make more sense in terms of total system-wide cost of ownership, given existing re-fueling infrastructure (existing gas stations), b) just make more sense in terms of basic physics - significantly higher energy density than batteries, c) just make more sense in terms of manufacturing infrastructure, given existing auto manufacturing techniques, plants, etc., and d) if this hydrocarbon fuel had the same environmental impact profile as an EV, there would be no “environmental” justification for regulations against it, right? This would mean ICE vehicles would have a long future ahead of them

4) We do have this hypothetical hydrocarbon fuel. It’s called synthetic fuel. The only reason we don't use synthetic fuels with zero emissions today is because petrol is so cheap

5) So, if governments kill off petrol through regulation, that opens the door for synthetic fuels to enter the picture. And so, we would get competition between zero emissions ICE vehicles versus zero emissions EVs

6) Which would win?

7) In the absence of governments putting their hands on one side or the other of the scales, that’s an empirical question, no? However, that is one area where we already have some early empirical data... In spite of massive federal and state tax incentives to spur consumer demand for EVs over ICE, the percentage of cars on the road today that are plug-in EVs is less than 1% in America. If people actually wanted EVs, you wouldn’t need to subsidize them to convince people to buy them, right? I mean, nobody’s out there subsidizing heroin. People love heroin! In fact, people love heroin so much that even when you threaten to put them in jail for buying heroin, they still buy heroin!!!

8) The obvious rebuttal to this is: Total cost of ownership of EVs will come down as new advances in battery technologies materialize, so demand should go up as EV prices come down. However, that only addresses the cost of the vehicles themselves and doesn’t in any way address system-wide infrastructure costs. The only falling cost curves I've ever seen with regard to EVs have to do with cost of batteries. Nothing ever addresses the cost of infrastructure. And, I suspect, the reason that is so is because infrastructure costs do not come down. Real estate, building and construction, connecting additional power lines to the grid, etc., etc., those costs are actually rising! Therefore, system-wide total cost of ownership should actually go up. After all, you are literally talking about replacing over 100,000 gas stations in America with EV stations!

9) One might argue, “Ah, but we don’t need to worry about total cost of ownership based on system-wide costs. Governments will simply take care of those infrastructure costs.” But, government spending must come from somewhere… tax payers! But, there’s a limit on how much you can actually tax and confiscate from your citizenry. In CA, the government currently steals $7.5k at the federal level and another $1.5k at the state level from one set of tax payers to hand over to rich people who want to buy Taycans and Teslas. And even then the government realizes that this particular crony gravy train has its limits, as each auto manufacturer is limited to only 200,000 EVs sold before those tax credits phase out

10) So, in the absence of governments FORCING their citizenry to buy EVs, synthetic fuels should ensure that ICE vehicles continue to have a long and happy life, and we enthusiasts will continue to have the cars we love to drive

11) What this doesn’t take into account, though, is what if governments simply create regulations against synthetic fuels in order to purposefully ensure EVs win, because concentrated interests / cronies are more powerful in the EV-related industries? Well, that would blatantly expose those regulations as nothing more than motivated by "public choice" - diverting money to favored concentrated interests - and it would highlight clearly that these regulations don’t and never had any real “environmental protection” objective, right? Seems a bit too brazen to me, but never say never when it comes to corrupt governmental regulations, right?

12) For example, the EU recently passed some regulation requiring all new cars sold to be EV by 2030 or some such s***, right? And the EU passed this regulation knowing full well that only ~1% of cars on the road in the EU today are plug-in EVs. Meaning, the EU passed this regulation simply to ensure that all auto manufacturers would be in violation by 2030, simply to then tax / fine them for being in violation!

13) That’s like the EU passing a regulation saying that you can no longer masturbate after 2030, and for every infraction, you must pay $20. What an amazing tax revenue generation machine for EU politicians to then hand out money to their cronies!

14) So, I guess I’m forced to conclude that in the absence of MASSIVE, UNDENIABLE, BLATANT government fraud and corruption, ICE vehicles and our enthusiast cars should enjoy long, healthy, and happy futures

Thus, our 3rd car in the family stable is going to be either the M3C or the G87 M2.