BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
M2 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip > First HPDE in a few weeks, which tires to learn on?

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-22-2019, 12:18 AM   #23
The HACK
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
The HACK's Avatar
1817
Rep
5,337
Posts

Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by just blaze View Post
Thanks for the advice. Definitely upgrading pads and fluid. And about going crazy on upgrading or modding, going to see how things go before going further with mods/parts.
Bingo.

Above all, have fun, be safe, and check your ego at the gate.
Appreciate 2
CrashFL136.50
      02-22-2019, 07:07 AM   #24
detroitm2
Colonel
detroitm2's Avatar
United_States
2427
Rep
2,526
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2018 BMW M2  [0.00]
Ferodo DS2500 and DS1.11 share a similar compound and can be swapped back and forth without rebedding. The former are decent street pads, the latter are track pads.
__________________
2018 M2 - Daily Driver/Track Car
Motorcity BMWCCA Member
Instagram | YouTube
Appreciate 0
      03-03-2019, 01:39 AM   #25
dcmac
Lieutenant
dcmac's Avatar
439
Rep
468
Posts

Drives: '18 LCI M2
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (0)

Hi OP,

I popped my HPDE cherry last year. Was running stock tires and pads but with Motul fluid. Car was very strong, but on the hot days, particularly in the later sessions, the tires would get greasy and the brakes would fade. Which is good because as others have said, it was a good chance to learn back it off a bit and keep learning the car. I think I spun once and went off track once in 5 events.

Lots of good advice on here about staying focused and not letting the equipment take away from you learning the ropes.

That said, this year I am going to be running a new coilover setup w/ camber plates, square 18s and Hankook RS4’s, plus upgraded pads (PFC08).

The reality is my car is still way too quick for my skill level, but I think as long as you don’t try to drive outside your limits, the better equipment will just make things more enjoyable.
Appreciate 3
ZM22783.50
JTO245246.50
      03-04-2019, 12:29 AM   #26
just blaze
First Lieutenant
310
Rep
339
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2 Alpine White
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: The Bay, CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcmac View Post
Hi OP,

I popped my HPDE cherry last year. Was running stock tires and pads but with Motul fluid. Car was very strong, but on the hot days, particularly in the later sessions, the tires would get greasy and the brakes would fade. Which is good because as others have said, it was a good chance to learn back it off a bit and keep learning the car. I think I spun once and went off track once in 5 events.

Lots of good advice on here about staying focused and not letting the equipment take away from you learning the ropes.

That said, this year I am going to be running a new coilover setup w/ camber plates, square 18s and Hankook RS4’s, plus upgraded pads (PFC08).

The reality is my car is still way too quick for my skill level, but I think as long as you don’t try to drive outside your limits, the better equipment will just make things more enjoyable.
Thanks for sharing your experience dcmac.

__________________
instagram: @ sf87_m2
Appreciate 0
      03-04-2019, 10:11 AM   #27
dcmac
Lieutenant
dcmac's Avatar
439
Rep
468
Posts

Drives: '18 LCI M2
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by just blaze View Post
Thanks for sharing your experience dcmac.

No worries. I am about to pull the trigger on the exact suspension/camber plates you mentioned you have... would you mind detailing your experience thus far with the R&T's and Vorshlag's?
Appreciate 1
      03-05-2019, 01:22 AM   #28
5.M0NSTER
Lieutenant Colonel
5.M0NSTER's Avatar
United_States
3354
Rep
1,823
Posts

Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Back in Michigan, GO BLUE!

iTrader: (0)

Do you guys know how much negative camber you can get out of the stock setup on OG M2? I plan on using same tires for street and track. (4-6 days a year). Then I have winter tires for Nov - March. I don't want to modify the car since I'll only be hanging on to it for another 2.5 years. Willing to go through a set of tires per season.
__________________
2017 BMW M2 German Spec
6MT, Driver's Package
--> SOLD
2018 Camaro SS 1LE. Because race car!

"Redline a day keeps the mechanics away"
Appreciate 0
      03-05-2019, 02:59 AM   #29
just blaze
First Lieutenant
310
Rep
339
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2 Alpine White
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: The Bay, CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcmac View Post
No worries. I am about to pull the trigger on the exact suspension/camber plates you mentioned you have... would you mind detailing your experience thus far with the R&T's and Vorshlag's?
Ohlins and Vorshlag plates have been really solid. Only feedback I have is from driving around town and some backroads. I did change my rear spring rate to 160nm as I wanted to find something just a tad softer for daily drive. I still have the stock 190nm spring if I ever decide I want to swap out.

One of the first things I noticed was the rear is more planted and does not skip around as it did stock(which was to be expected). Something about the stock M2 suspension IMO had this ever so slight unsettled feeling going over little bumps and dips in the Rear. I have it set to 15 clicks all around which feels about as stiff as stock, with better dampening. I will start playing around with different levels of the adjustability as time goes on and more track time planned. As for the Vorshlag plates, they are quality made and I have not noticed any increase in NVH which was something I was worried about.
__________________
instagram: @ sf87_m2

Last edited by just blaze; 03-05-2019 at 03:56 AM..
Appreciate 0
      03-05-2019, 03:00 AM   #30
just blaze
First Lieutenant
310
Rep
339
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2 Alpine White
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: The Bay, CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Do you guys know how much negative camber you can get out of the stock setup on OG M2? I plan on using same tires for street and track. (4-6 days a year). Then I have winter tires for Nov - March. I don't want to modify the car since I'll only be hanging on to it for another 2.5 years. Willing to go through a set of tires per season.
I believe it might be 1.5 F/2 R. Not 100% positive though
__________________
instagram: @ sf87_m2
Appreciate 1
5.M0NSTER3353.50
      03-06-2019, 11:36 AM   #31
dcmac
Lieutenant
dcmac's Avatar
439
Rep
468
Posts

Drives: '18 LCI M2
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by just blaze View Post
Ohlins and Vorshlag plates have been really solid. Only feedback I have is from driving around town and some backroads. I did change my rear spring rate to 160nm as I wanted to find something just a tad softer for daily drive. I still have the stock 190nm spring if I ever decide I want to swap out.

One of the first things I noticed was the rear is more planted and does not skip around as it did stock(which was to be expected). Something about the stock M2 suspension IMO had this ever so slight unsettled feeling going over little bumps and dips in the Rear. I have it set to 15 clicks all around which feels about as stiff as stock, with better dampening. I will start playing around with different levels of the adjustability as time goes on and more track time planned. As for the Vorshlag plates, they are quality made and I have not noticed any increase in NVH which was something I was worried about.
Awesome, thanks man. I share your sentiments about the M2's rear end while stock. Looking forward to getting this work done! Cheers
Appreciate 1
      03-06-2019, 03:11 PM   #32
just blaze
First Lieutenant
310
Rep
339
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2 Alpine White
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: The Bay, CA

iTrader: (2)

About to have my tires mounted this weekend. Should I do any alignment or just mount them as is?

The last time I got alignment was last summer.
Attached Images
 
__________________
instagram: @ sf87_m2
Appreciate 0
      03-07-2019, 07:24 AM   #33
GasBurnlife(landapanda)
Captain
573
Rep
683
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Ashburn, Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by just blaze View Post
About to have my tires mounted this weekend. Should I do any alignment or just mount them as is?

The last time I got alignment was last summer.
How many miles did you put on since the last measurement? Is the car pulling left or right when you are driving on a highway?
Appreciate 0
      03-07-2019, 07:32 AM   #34
ZM2
Brigadier General
2784
Rep
3,681
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by landapanda View Post
How many miles did you put on since the last measurement? Is the car pulling left or right when you are driving on a highway?
Those are pretty standard street alignment settings, should be fine for your first time out.

Altho, you’ll wear the outsides of your front tires if you start to push, so you probably want to adjust before your second outing.

There’s a few threads with recommended track settings, but let us know if you don’t find them.
Appreciate 0
      03-07-2019, 07:51 AM   #35
ZM2
Brigadier General
2784
Rep
3,681
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (1)

I always keep these handy, so here’s what I run:

Alignment Specs (deg)
Track: Front: -3.1, 0.04 total toe in, Rear: -2.0, 0.29 total toe in
Street: Front: -1.8, 0.10 total toe in, Rear: -1.8, 0.29 total toe in
OEM: Front: -1.5, 0.16 total toe in, Rear: -1.8, 0.27 total toe in

You won’t need to go that aggressive on the front camber until you start really pushing on track. I’d say -2.5 and work up from there.
Appreciate 4
      03-07-2019, 12:12 PM   #36
just blaze
First Lieutenant
310
Rep
339
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2 Alpine White
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: The Bay, CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by landapanda View Post
How many miles did you put on since the last measurement? Is the car pulling left or right when you are driving on a highway?

Putting a new set of tires. Car was actually driving really well and not pulling either way. More so on the front camber.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Those are pretty standard street alignment settings, should be fine for your first time out.

Altho, you’ll wear the outsides of your front tires if you start to push, so you probably want to adjust before your second outing.

There’s a few threads with recommended track settings, but let us know if you don’t find them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I always keep these handy, so here’s what I run:

Alignment Specs (deg)
Track: Front: -3.1, 0.04 total toe in, Rear: -2.0, 0.29 total toe in
Street: Front: -1.8, 0.10 total toe in, Rear: -1.8, 0.29 total toe in
OEM: Front: -1.5, 0.16 total toe in, Rear: -1.8, 0.27 total toe in

You won’t need to go that aggressive on the front camber until you start really pushing on track. I’d say -2.5 and work up from there.
Once again, thank you ZM2 and for sharing your specs.

I actually signed up and have another track day at Thunderhill about 10 days after Laguna Seca.

I'm tempted to set my fronts around -2.5 with zero/minimal toe and leaving the rears the same. Having the 2 days now got me thinking having more camber might not be a bad idea. Then after I'll just leave it like that and see how it does on the street. The M2 isn't a true daily driver for me, although I drive it a good amount on my off days (3-4 days a week)
__________________
instagram: @ sf87_m2
Appreciate 0
      03-07-2019, 12:21 PM   #37
detroitm2
Colonel
detroitm2's Avatar
United_States
2427
Rep
2,526
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2018 BMW M2  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I always keep these handy, so here’s what I run:

Alignment Specs (deg)
Track: Front: -3.1, 0.04 total toe in, Rear: -2.0, 0.29 total toe in
Street: Front: -1.8, 0.10 total toe in, Rear: -1.8, 0.29 total toe in
OEM: Front: -1.5, 0.16 total toe in, Rear: -1.8, 0.27 total toe in

You won’t need to go that aggressive on the front camber until you start really pushing on track. I’d say -2.5 and work up from there.
Question for you. I assume you're not resetting your alignment between track/street. Are you just adjusting your camber plates to the applicable setting and the toe-in is lining up with that?

Curious, because I have a set of TCKline plates I plan on using this year. Should I be swapping between stock camber, and the next negative camber slot (about 1 degree difference) for track? When I get my initial alignment done, should I have it done for stock (position) camber first, and then just move the plates 1 spot for track? My toe should be a little closer to 0, correct?

Further info, I do have track specific wheels/tires, so am not sure how that changes things. Running stock wheels with close to stock size tires on the street, and 18x10 wheels with 275/35r18 tires for track.
Appreciate 0
      03-07-2019, 01:47 PM   #38
ZM2
Brigadier General
2784
Rep
3,681
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (1)

Hey guys, I'll answer both your questions.

justblaze I would definitely add some front negative camber. Try -2.5 and see how hard you're pushing by looking at the outside front edges. If you have excessive outside wear, add more camber after your first two outings.

I ran zero toe in the front for a while, but it's a PITA on the street. 0.04 total toe in is just enough to help quite a bit on the street to keep the tires from hunting around as much, and isn't too much that it impacts wear or performance on track for your purposes.

Depending on how many miles you've put on your car since last summer and the types of roads you drive, I would be prepared to adjust the rears, as well, to bring them back into spec.

I'll also add that I played with rear toe settings from 0.16-0.4 total toe in just to see how the car would react. The less you have, the easier it is to rotate the rear of the car, but it's also easier to kick the back end out under throttle. The more you have, the harder it is to throttle steer, especially in tight corners. I ended up at 0.29, as it makes the car really solid getting on the gas coming out of the corners, and I can just give her a little more gas to help get around slow corners.

detroitm2 I do not change settings between events. My routine is to get a track alignment before my first annual event and to check it again halfway thru the season. -3.1 on the street is kind of PITA, but you get used to it and the tiny bit of toe in helps quite a bit. After track season, I have the street alignment dialed back in.

Different tire & wheel sizes and tire compounds will have different impacts to alignment settings. Generally, you can keep toe set to your desired preferences, but you'll want more camber for stickier tires. Everyone's setup is different, so just watch the wear and decide how to adjust.

Lastly, the beginning/end of track season alignment changes for me go hand-in-hand with also changing oil and brake fluid. Beginning of season: flush brake fluid, change to 5W oil, track alignment, track pads (easy enough to switch these b/n events). End of season: change to 0W oil, street alignment, brake fluid flush, street pads.
Appreciate 1
      03-08-2019, 10:38 AM   #39
just blaze
First Lieutenant
310
Rep
339
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2 Alpine White
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: The Bay, CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Hey guys, I'll answer both your questions.

justblaze I would definitely add some front negative camber. Try -2.5 and see how hard you're pushing by looking at the outside front edges. If you have excessive outside wear, add more camber after your first two outings.

I ran zero toe in the front for a while, but it's a PITA on the street. 0.04 total toe in is just enough to help quite a bit on the street to keep the tires from hunting around as much, and isn't too much that it impacts wear or performance on track for your purposes.

Depending on how many miles you've put on your car since last summer and the types of roads you drive, I would be prepared to adjust the rears, as well, to bring them back into spec.

I'll also add that I played with rear toe settings from 0.16-0.4 total toe in just to see how the car would react. The less you have, the easier it is to rotate the rear of the car, but it's also easier to kick the back end out under throttle. The more you have, the harder it is to throttle steer, especially in tight corners. I ended up at 0.29, as it makes the car really solid getting on the gas coming out of the corners, and I can just give her a little more gas to help get around slow corners.

detroitm2 I do not change settings between events. My routine is to get a track alignment before my first annual event and to check it again halfway thru the season. -3.1 on the street is kind of PITA, but you get used to it and the tiny bit of toe in helps quite a bit. After track season, I have the street alignment dialed back in.

Different tire & wheel sizes and tire compounds will have different impacts to alignment settings. Generally, you can keep toe set to your desired preferences, but you'll want more camber for stickier tires. Everyone's setup is different, so just watch the wear and decide how to adjust.

Lastly, the beginning/end of track season alignment changes for me go hand-in-hand with also changing oil and brake fluid. Beginning of season: flush brake fluid, change to 5W oil, track alignment, track pads (easy enough to switch these b/n events). End of season: change to 0W oil, street alignment, brake fluid flush, street pads.
Appreciate it ZM2 . Just got to flush brake fluid and pad change and I think I'm good to go. Cheers!
__________________
instagram: @ sf87_m2
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2019, 05:25 AM   #40
just blaze
First Lieutenant
310
Rep
339
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2 Alpine White
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: The Bay, CA

iTrader: (2)

So got my alignment and not sure how they got -2.5 on the rears.
Attached Images
 
__________________
instagram: @ sf87_m2
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2019, 06:41 AM   #41
ZM2
Brigadier General
2784
Rep
3,681
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by just blaze View Post
So got my alignment and not sure how they got -2.5 on the rears.
Oh man. If you clearly told them the specs you wanted and they didn’t hit them, I’d make them do it again at no charge.

I’ve tried up to -2.2 in the rear and backed off to -2.0. Anything above -2.0 makes it harder to put power down and isn’t needed from a tire wear perspective.

I’d def take it back!

Last edited by ZM2; 03-12-2019 at 06:47 AM..
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2019, 02:22 PM   #42
Noel911
Private First Class
90
Rep
126
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2 & 2019 Golf R (Daily)
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NC

iTrader: (0)

Based on my 20+ years of tracking cars, I'll give you the short qualified answer:

If you want to learn to be a really fast driver...get the hardest tires you can and learn to slide (Sticky tires come later).

If you want to be a slow driver with faster lap times...get the stickiest tires you can afford.
__________________
---2017 White M2 - Zero Option- 6-Speed Manual---
Appreciate 4
MR_M2517.50
5.M0NSTER3353.50
HOT M80.50
      03-26-2019, 01:50 PM   #43
M2joey
First Lieutenant
M2joey's Avatar
300
Rep
379
Posts

Drives: M2, 335is, X5 M50i
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Ashburn, VA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noel911 View Post
Based on my 20+ years of tracking cars, I'll give you the short qualified answer:

If you want to learn to be a really fast driver...get the hardest tires you can and learn to slide (Sticky tires come later).

If you want to be a slow driver with faster lap times...get the stickiest tires you can afford.
I was once told by a former club chief instructor -

"The best car to learn in is an old car with bald tires"

It all about learning car control. Learn, have fun and rest will follow.
Appreciate 2
      04-03-2019, 03:43 PM   #44
Noel911
Private First Class
90
Rep
126
Posts

Drives: 2017 M2 & 2019 Golf R (Daily)
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by isjoey View Post
I was once told by a former club chief instructor -

"The best car to learn in is an old car with bald tires"

It all about learning car control. Learn, have fun and rest will follow.
Love that! The same is true with ALWAYS going out on a wet track!
__________________
---2017 White M2 - Zero Option- 6-Speed Manual---
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:51 PM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST