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      09-19-2019, 05:57 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
The data sheet you posted says that the M2 CS test car featured optional M-CCB: "Keramik (optional)". Look also at the indicated 15K price delta (base price versus test car price) which could be explained by M-CCB for a significant part.

According to the same data sheet:
  • the tested M2 Competition (M-DCT) weighed 1631 kg (full tank of fuel included), apparently had no M Driver's Package (because data sheet notes V-max of 250 km/u (stock: electronically limited V-max) - Parabolika speed 232 km/h), featured steel brakes, was sitting on Pilot Super Sport tires (likely on 19" 788M wheels) and was driving in 1°C/34°F air temp + 1°C/34°F track temp and 1020 mbar air pressure;
  • the tested M2 CS (M-DCT) weighed 1588 kg (full tank of fuel included), apparently had M Driver's Package (because data sheet notes V-max of 280 km/h (delimited V-max) - Parabolika speed 248 km/h), featured M-CCB (carbon ceramic brakes - bigger rotors), was sitting on Cup 2 tires (likely on lightweight 19" 763M wheels) and was driving in 32°C/90°F air temp + 53°C/127°F track temp and 1015 mbar air pressure.
Hm, judging merely by those figures, it looks like the M2 Competition - considering its setup and near freezing point test circumstances - wasn't particularly blown out of the water/ice by the better equipped and more powerful M2 CS pushed around the track in warm weather on hot asphalt.
So to "even out" the comparison they fitted the M2C w/the same brakes otherwise they are comparing stock M2C to stock M2CS, which probably accounts for the tire difference.

So what I learned/confirmed from this is that comparing cars based on spec sheets is only relevant for bragging rights (40 HP more, 100 LBS less) vs. real world performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
The CS gets the 6-4 MP steel brake standard. Not necessarily the CCB fitted with the car tested.
Since the M2CS appears to be an M2C + M Performance car.

For example, the M2CS has the 768M but w/the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires, which is the only 768M package the dealer can order. Yes, we went back and forth w/BMW on my M2C order and I could've gotten the 768M wheels only instead of the 788M but it was a special request not a check box on the system and there was no credit for the 788M wheels.

So I wonder if by using the 2NH red calipers if the M2CS is also fitted w/the track pads that are included in the retrofit kit instead of the street pads?

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      09-19-2019, 06:18 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
The gains basically all come from the CCBs
If you refer to weight (apart from improved braking endurance and heat management) of M-CCB: the article mentions 43 kg weight difference between the tested cars, of which -21.7 kg because of M-CCB, -7.5 kg because of CFRP bonnet/hood and -4 kg because of CFRP roof (Sandwich-structured composite: "you can stand on the new roof - you cannot stand on the previous one").
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      09-19-2019, 06:47 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
The gains basically all come from the CCBs and tune. Performs as expected. Great car other than the price.
Tires

Same day, same weather, same Cup 2 tires. Maybe a second max difference.
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      09-19-2019, 07:31 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F82PRETEND View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AWSB328iM View Post
This is a waste of time if they couldn't find two cars with matching brakes and wheel/tire combinations.
I agree. I want the CS to be amazing, but I am left wondering how much of this is brakes and, specifically, tires. 2 seconds on a small track is usually much more on a large track, but without the same tires it's not really fair.
All of it is.

Performance delta is due to the difference in tires and brakes.

Lighter weight and more power didn't do much for the CS here.
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      09-19-2019, 07:57 PM   #71
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I have to laugh at all the naysayers here. It's only the tires, only the brakes, only the power, blah, blah, blah...

The performance enhancements is the sum of all the incremental gains. It's the added power, the reduced weight, the improve aero, the increased grip from the tires, the adaptive suspension that work in unison to provide the total gain. And no, I have not forgotten to mention the CCB as they do not contribute to improving lap times .

As a comparison, I am well above 2 seconds faster at my local track in my M4cs than I was was with my previous M4 ON THE SAME TIRES (Nitto NT01 275-305/35R18). But it is not only about lap times. It is also how the car drives and feels, and in that respect, the driving experience in my M4cs is quite different than it was in my previous M4. I am sure it will be the same for the M2cs owners for lap times as well as for driving experience.

Just like the M4cs, the M2cs is not meant for everyone. It is meant for those that are seeking a dual use practical daily driver and track toy that is slightly more focused towards track use than the base car. Just like the M4cs, the M2cs will be overpriced from an MSRP standpoint. But the real "out the door" price increment over an M2C will be more than worth it for to those that the M2cs appeals to.
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      09-19-2019, 07:58 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
All of it is.

Performance delta is due to the difference in tires and brakes.

Lighter weight and more power didn't do much for the CS here.
As a CS owner, you should know better...
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      09-19-2019, 08:35 PM   #73
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About carbon ceramic brakes in general: last Spring a Porsche tech rep sparked controversy:
  • see here ("«Forget what you think you know about carbon ceramic brakes»: Porsche");
  • and here ("Porsche tech rep says carbon brakes are not the best for track use - PCCB system best for «people who don't like cleaning their wheels»").
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      09-19-2019, 08:51 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
About carbon ceramic brakes in general: last Spring a Porsche tech rep sparked controversy:
  • see here ("«Forget what you think you know about carbon ceramic brakes»: Porsche");
  • and here ("Porsche tech rep says carbon brakes are not the best for track use - PCCB system best for «people who don't like cleaning their wheels»").
This is consistent with a statement made by no other than Andreas Preuninger himself in an interview a little while back.

There are so many myths around the performance benefits of CCB.
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      09-19-2019, 08:59 PM   #75
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@CanAutM3 is correct about CCB not improving lap time. It's all about consistency in repeated time attacks.

And 30C/50F ambient temp difference would work in the Competition's favor, though from trap speed the CS is still noticeably stronger.

The 'normal' expectation for the CS is to be 10s quicker around the ring, a 7-8min power demanding track, which translate to 1.5s/min of performance improvement, or 3s with a 2 min track like this.

In the end, It's not a back to back test. And the magazine people themselves are impressed. So let's refrain from making uneducated conclusions.
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      09-19-2019, 09:45 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbrick View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnoob2 View Post
Maybe not 120k but don't forget the stiff dealer markup this is going to fetch.
Where am I getting that number. Simple. Look at the markup on M3/M4 CS. Look at the parts on the M2 CS. Look at the Belgium price listed. When you are done with all that you are around 100k which some dealers will sell at. Then you have people on a list already that will try to cash in along with other dealers marking up their units. So realistically best case 100k worst case 120k. Where you thinking 70k? The BMW CF roof and hood will push it past 70k alone.
What markup? There are M3 and especially M4CS sitting around at dealerships unsold. There is no markup.
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      09-19-2019, 10:08 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
All of it is.
Performance delta is due to the difference in tires and brakes.
Lighter weight and more power didn't do much for the CS here.
As a CS owner, you should know better...
Haha there were performance enhancements to the engine and suspension between the M3 ZCP and CS. I only read the addition of adaptive suspension and more power here.
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      09-19-2019, 10:22 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
Haha there were performance enhancements to the engine and suspension between the M3 ZCP and CS. I only read the addition of adaptive suspension and more power here.
I am not sure I follow you, you are essentially saying that the M3cs and M2cs both got improved suspension and engine power .

I would even say that the improvements in weight reduction, power and supension of the M2cs over the M2C are more substantial than the improvements of the M3cs over the M3CP.
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      09-19-2019, 10:28 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
Haha there were performance enhancements to the engine and suspension between the M3 ZCP and CS. I only read the addition of adaptive suspension and more power here.
Well, the same holds true for the M2cs. I would even say that the improvements in weight reduction, power and supension of the M2cs over the M2C are more substantial than the improvements of the M3cs over the M3CP.
That's true. It'll all come down to the price at this point. It'll be a great upgrade or a horrible one depending on how BMW plays this.
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      09-19-2019, 10:51 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I have to laugh at all the naysayers here. It's only the tires, only the brakes, only the power, blah, blah, blah...
The performance enhancements is the sum of all the incremental gains. It's the added power, the reduced weight, the improve aero, the increased grip from the tires, the adaptive suspension that work in unison to provide the total gain. And no, I have not forgotten to mention the CCB as they do not contribute to improving lap times .
As a comparison, I am well above 2 seconds faster at my local track in my M4cs than I was was with my previous M4 ON THE SAME TIRES (Nitto NT01 275-305/35R18). But it is not only about lap times. It is also how the car drives and feels, and in that respect, the driving experience in my M4cs is quite different than it was in my previous M4. I am sure it will be the same for the M2cs owners for lap times as well as for driving experience.
Just like the M4cs, the M2cs is not meant for everyone. It is meant for those that are seeking a dual use practical daily driver and track toy that is slightly more focused towards track use than the base car. Just like the M4cs, the M2cs will be overpriced from an MSRP standpoint. But the real "out the door" price increment over an M2C will be more than worth it for to those that the M2cs appeals to.
You have to admit(CS driving experience/enjoyment aside), tires do play a role in lap times. Super Sports are an aging tire, that have now been replaced by the 4S. An R compound tire(Cup 2) will make up a large chunk of that 2secs. The CS is going to be quicker than the Comp, but on equal tires it will be a lot closer.

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      09-19-2019, 11:00 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
That's true. It'll all come down to the price at this point. It'll be a great upgrade or a horrible one depending on how BMW plays this.
If it is priced like the M4CS, it will have about a 35% premium. So msrp close to $80k, plus options.

M2CS as tested in this article with DCT and CCB, add another $11k+. Over $90,000.
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      09-19-2019, 11:22 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
@CanAutM3 is correct about CCB not improving lap time. It's all about consistency in repeated time attacks.
And 30C/50F ambient temp difference would work in the Competition's favor, though from trap speed the CS is still noticeably stronger.
The 'normal' expectation for the CS is to be 10s quicker around the ring, a 7-8min power demanding track, which translate to 1.5s/min of performance improvement, or 3s with a 2 min track like this.
In the end, It's not a back to back test. And the magazine people themselves are impressed. So let's refrain from making uneducated conclusions.
Again different tyres were used to set the time at the Ring.

The verdict on the performance delta is still unclear.

The time for the M2C on PSS were set in 1 degree Celsius (not 30 as you have stated) which would be unfavourable to the M2C
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      09-19-2019, 11:54 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Again different tyres were used to set the time at the Ring.
The verdict on the performance delta is still unclear.
The time for the M2C on PSS were set in 1 degree Celsius (not 30 as you have stated) which would be unfavourable to the M2C
30C/50F degrees of difference I meant.

Cold temp helps the M2C with more engine power, while not affecting much on the grip with PSS properly warmed up, which Auto Sport people made sure of.

On the other end, S55, like any other engine, loses a significant amount of power over a 30C/50F ambient temp increase. My personal experience - on Shanghai F1 circuit, exiting turn 13 into 1.3km long straight, the M4 ZCP traps 260+kph in winter (0~10C) and only 240+kph in summer (35C). 20kph is worth 30~40hp or so.

I would agree, Cup2 should be worth 1s or more at Hockenheim GP. But I'm inclined to believing the M2 CS would be still 1.5s quicker in a back to back test, given the same tire.
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      09-20-2019, 01:55 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I don't know why you are laughing? The instrumented numbers tell this story. The car brakes better and accelerates faster, while it actually had a worse slalom result despite Cup 2 tires. I am sure it's just margin of error on that, though.

It is an M2C + tune + brake upgrade (optional) + M performance parts and M4 adaptive dampers. There is nothing wrong with that, but that's what it is. I'm not a naysayer, just calling it like it is.

It is an incremental increase in performance for a larger increase in price. You know, there is a reason I can get an M4 CS for a massive discount, right? That does NOT mean it isn't a good car. I just don't think it's priced very well compared to the competition. The cost difference between M2C and M2CS will probably be as much as the cost difference between M240i and M2C, except you are further on the diminishing returns part of the curve.

Again, there is no doubt this is the best M2 you can buy, but it's just another example of BMWs strategy to increase profit margin and reduce R&D costs with these "halo" models. I would be excited if they didn't spend their money on carbon fiber body panels that do almost nothing for performance over something like magnetorheological dampers or wider fenders to allow for more tire on a car that is desperately starved for traction even with an N55 engine.

I don't own M2 or M2C, so I'm not a salty owner, just trying to be objective about it.

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      09-20-2019, 02:13 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
This is consistent with a statement made by no other than Andreas Preuninger himself in an interview a little while back.
There are so many myths around the performance benefits of CCB.
Yes, in theory CCB is only better on repeated stops because of thermal resistance. Pretty much every single car on the road is traction limited on the first stop.

You are forgetting one important variable though. The brake pads. These cars are tested with stock pads from BMW. I can tell you from personal experience that the stock pads on CCB cars just hold up better than the pads that come on the blue brakes (not sure about 2NH - but there are lots of complaints about the stock pads on the street, even). So, if you don't replace your pads with track pads, the CCBs can actually perform better. This isn't a real world example, because we all know not to track a car with street pads, but it IS what the magazines do.

CCB calipers also have titanium pistons. It is entirely possible that they brake better over a lap given stock pads and the increased thermal resistance to the fluid.


Do not forget that the CCB rotors weigh a LOT less than the 2NH brakes. That is unsprung weight also, as I am sure you are aware.

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      09-20-2019, 02:32 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
30C/50F degrees of difference I meant.
Cold temp helps the M2C with more engine power, while not affecting much on the grip with PSS properly warmed up, which Auto Sport people made sure of.
On the other end, S55, like any other engine, loses a significant amount of power over a 30C/50F ambient temp increase. My personal experience - on Shanghai F1 circuit, exiting turn 13 into 1.3km long straight, the M4 ZCP traps 260+kph in winter (0~10C) and only 240+kph in summer (35C). 20kph is worth 30~40hp or so.
I would agree, Cup2 should be worth 1s or more at Hockenheim GP. But I'm inclined to believing the M2 CS would be still 1.5s quicker in a back to back test, given the same tire.
I agree that cold temp during the run (M2C) is favourable for power production but the low track temp at 1 degree Celsius does reduces traction. One won't be able to properly warm up tyres under that temperature as heat in tyres drops fast, especially if it was a windy day. PSS is a summer tyre. GM's service bulletin, for example stated that PSS has reduced capability below 5°C (40°F).

Your experience in terminal speed reduction at the Shanghai track during a hot day would not only be temperature related. Humidity and atmospheric pressure are also factors to consider.

I speculate that the difference between the two would be around 1 second. Can't wait for someone to compare the two on the same day with the same transmission and same tyres.

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      09-20-2019, 03:47 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Less than 2 seconds?
It's 2.1 sec faster and the article states that even without considering the better conditions that the Competition model was tested under thats a significant difference!
2 seconds on a short track is a lot! Do 5 laps and the CS is over 10 seconds ahead. Visualize having to wait 10 seconds for the Competition to pass after the CS crosses the line... It's a loooong wait!
Well this is not Hockenheim Short(2.6km long) layout.

They tested both cars on Hockenheim GP (4.57km long)....

This layout is 2kms longer....
So the rest of your comment is a bit...oh well...

And come to think of it, with a tarmac temperature of only 1 degree Celsius (33.8 F) when they tested M2 Comp how on earth could driver Gebhardt get heat into those PSS tyres and get that fantastic laptime in the first place?

I'd opt for Pilot Alpin wintertyres in those temperatures LOL.

Think about it.


Anyway:
The black layout is the Short Layout....the grey one including the black one where they did this test, GP Layout.



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      09-20-2019, 06:02 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
30C/50F degrees of difference I meant.
Cold temp helps the M2C with more engine power, while not affecting much on the grip with PSS properly warmed up, which Auto Sport people made sure of.
On the other end, S55, like any other engine, loses a significant amount of power over a 30C/50F ambient temp increase. My personal experience - on Shanghai F1 circuit, exiting turn 13 into 1.3km long straight, the M4 ZCP traps 260+kph in winter (0~10C) and only 240+kph in summer (35C). 20kph is worth 30~40hp or so.
I would agree, Cup2 should be worth 1s or more at Hockenheim GP. But I'm inclined to believing the M2 CS would be still 1.5s quicker in a back to back test, given the same tire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
I agree that cold temp during the run (M2C) is favourable for power production but the low track temp at 1 degree Celsius does reduces traction. One won't be able to properly warm up tyres under that temperature as heat in tyres drops fast, especially if it was a windy day. PSS is a summer tyre. GM's service bulletin, for example stated that PSS has reduced capability below 5°C (40°F).
Your experience in terminal speed reduction at the Shanghai track during a hot day would not only be temperature related. Humidity and atmospheric pressure are also factors to consider.
I speculate that the difference between the two would be around 1 second. Can't wait for someone to compare the two on the same day with the same transmission and same tyres.
Couple of valid points.

As indicated in the data sheet:
  • track temperature difference: 52°C/93°F (1°C/34°F vs. 53°C/127°F);
  • air temperature difference: 31°C/56°F (1°C/34°F vs. 32°C/90°F);
  • air pressure difference: 5 mbar (1020 mbar vs. 1015 mbar).
Different test environment circumstances.
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