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BMW M2 Forum > BMW M2 Discussions > M2 CS vs M2 Competition performance test results from Hockenheim GP track (+ VIDEO)

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      01-07-2020, 10:42 PM   #265
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Some people like to use circular logic...such as if they use it then then it must work better than before in everyway

The truth is there is no one size fits all aero, every track will have its optimum aero setup.

Some nice info on this topic

https://nasaspeed.news/tech/aero/air...e-whole-point/

I am glad that they made the CS but I won't shy away from expressing my opinion. Neither should anyone.
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      01-08-2020, 03:56 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post

I am glad that they made the CS but I won't shy away from expressing my opinion. Neither should anyone.
I think the CS proves that 1) the M2C is already a very capable track car and improving it required quite a lot of big mods which each net a little improvement adding up to 1-2 seconds improvement per lapped minute.

OR

2) BMW does not care about absolute performance for the CS model, and spent the cash making it "special", more than an all out track car, for the collectors.

I imagine the truth lies somewhere in the middle and that BMW does not want an M2 CS that is faster than an M3/4CS. To me this is obvious as they stuck to the M2 tire sizes and did not go to the M3/M4 tire size (or larger!).
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      01-08-2020, 10:27 AM   #267
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You have to think that BMW is a buisiness in the first place, everything they do as to have some kind of come back for them. Be it in $$ or marketing/brand reconition etc.

They don't give any free lunch.
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      01-08-2020, 02:52 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megator View Post
I imagine the truth lies somewhere in the middle and that BMW does not want an M2 CS that is faster than an M3/4CS. To me this is obvious as they stuck to the M2 tire sizes and did not go to the M3/M4 tire size (or larger!).
I think there are so many factors in play around regulations, testing for approval in markets etc that affect this as well that it's not always easy to know what they had to deal with or not. Going to the larger total diameter wheel and tire combo on the M3/M4 would have all sorts of other impacts including things like traction control mapping, emissions/mpg, etc. If you look at the sizes in the Cup 2 tires at 19's there are only larger total diameters available as any wider ones have the same sidewall ratio.
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      01-10-2020, 05:02 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
I think there are so many factors in play around regulations, testing for approval in markets etc that affect this as well that it's not always easy to know what they had to deal with or not. Going to the larger total diameter wheel and tire combo on the M3/M4 would have all sorts of other impacts including things like traction control mapping, emissions/mpg, etc. If you look at the sizes in the Cup 2 tires at 19's there are only larger total diameters available as any wider ones have the same sidewall ratio.
All of these things are surmountable and some had to already be done anyways due to other changes. ie emissions need to be redone anyways due to the CS tune.

Swapping to the M3/4 CS wheel package would cost peanuts and would improve performance, yet they did not do so likely because they need to handicap the M2CS.

The diameter change to M3/4 19" tire sizes is less than that to M3/4 18" tire sizes. I am running 18" M3/4 tire sizes on a bone stock M2C without any issues. The TC, ABS, etc have a measure of adaptability built in.
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      01-10-2020, 05:49 AM   #270
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Although the gross weight of the CS is not that difference from the Competition, they shaved off mass from the just the right places, to make a perceptible difference in feel and performance.

It wasn't that difficult and they didn't even have to go back to the drawing board and engineer it from scratch, except to look at data charts and compare, contrast, mix and match specifications.

For instance, the Competition 788M wheels are 4.5lbs different per wheel and it's brake rotors difference is; 8.75lbs per side for CCB.

15lbs average reduction per corner, on the hub, plus the tuning for the Adaptive Suspension is going to make the CS feel much lighter on its feet and more playful and confident in manipulating high G-Force turns than the Competition.

It's easy to, as the kids here say to; "armchair review" a vehicle they never drove before and give a presupposition on it, however, me, rationally, trust that the folks that put this vehicle together are well versed in dynamics and know they have a high bar to achieve in the Court Of Public Opinion, so it's going to be exhilarating little machine.
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      01-10-2020, 06:44 AM   #271
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With regard to using 255/35-19 and 275/35-19 tires as OE on the M2C or M2CS, I'm betting that the primary reason those aren't used is the legal requirement in the EU for tire chain clearance. There's no way the 255/35-19 up front is going to pass that requirement. Hence, we're looking at the maximum legal size tires they could use on this chassis (unless they changed to a shorter diameter setup like 265/30-19 and 285/30-19 or even 275/30-19 and 295/30-19 - which introduces a whole set of additional compromises and issues).
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      01-10-2020, 09:02 AM   #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megator View Post
All of these things are surmountable and some had to already be done anyways due to other changes. ie emissions need to be redone anyways due to the CS tune.

Swapping to the M3/4 CS wheel package would cost peanuts and would improve performance, yet they did not do so likely because they need to handicap the M2CS.

The diameter change to M3/4 19" tire sizes is less than that to M3/4 18" tire sizes. I am running 18" M3/4 tire sizes on a bone stock M2C without any issues. The TC, ABS, etc have a measure of adaptability built in.
You are correct in this being less of an issue than I thought. I had not done the actual math and was mentally comparing the 285/30/20 on the M4/comp against a 265/35/19 for the M2 and assumed the total diameter was significantly different. It's only .4" which is hardly anything. I don't know either how offsets etc work out and what people have stuffed into the wheel wells on M2C's without rubbing. I think the snow chain point is a solid one though, and does fit into the additional regulations issue that I was bringing up. I work in a the appliance industry and you'd be shocked sometimes at how difficult it is to do something insanely trivial on something like a fridge or dishwasher because of the implications, time, and cost from regulation. Several of our suppliers are automotive (one of them makes the C8 vette transmission selector for example) and I've had these conversations with other engineers plenty of times.
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      01-10-2020, 09:57 AM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
You are correct in this being less of an issue than I thought. I had not done the actual math and was mentally comparing the 285/30/20 on the M4/comp against a 265/35/19 for the M2 and assumed the total diameter was significantly different. It's only .4" which is hardly anything. I don't know either how offsets etc work out and what people have stuffed into the wheel wells on M2C's without rubbing. I think the snow chain point is a solid one though, and does fit into the additional regulations issue that I was bringing up. I work in a the appliance industry and you'd be shocked sometimes at how difficult it is to do something insanely trivial on something like a fridge or dishwasher because of the implications, time, and cost from regulation. Several of our suppliers are automotive (one of them makes the C8 vette transmission selector for example) and I've had these conversations with other engineers plenty of times.
Ill do you one better, I used to work as an engineer for Nissan. I know what you are talking about, still not convinced something like that was the "real" issue.

Not sure on the snowchain argument as I have never read up on it (dont get enough snow where I live). I could imagine that so long as the winter wheel package is homologated for chains that would be enough to meet that particular requirement.

There is no real point in arguing further. BMW choose the mods to the CS as a compromise of many factors and not as a way to make the CS as fast as possible, that is my only point.
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      01-10-2020, 12:23 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megator View Post
Ill do you one better, I used to work as an engineer for Nissan. I know what you are talking about, still not convinced something like that was the "real" issue.

Not sure on the snowchain argument as I have never read up on it (dont get enough snow where I live). I could imagine that so long as the winter wheel package is homologated for chains that would be enough to meet that particular requirement.

There is no real point in arguing further. BMW choose the mods to the CS as a compromise of many factors and not as a way to make the CS as fast as possible, that is my only point.
My apologies if it came across as argumentative. Not my intent. I think your point is valid, and likely - that BMW compromised and didn't make it as fast as they could have, and potentially in some areas that could have been really easy like the wheels. I was more intending to highlight that it was a "could" have been easy rather than "is" easy to make such a change. If you worked at Nissan, and as another engineer, you know exactly what I mean and the point doesn't need to be belabored. The horse is fully dead, and tender.
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      01-13-2020, 05:25 AM   #275
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Quote:
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The horse is fully dead, and tender.
Haha I love it Thanks for being a good conversationalist and sorry if I cam across as argumentative.

I do really want the CS hood and wish the CF roof was a factory option. Not so much for performance but for the looks!
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      01-13-2020, 09:34 AM   #276
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Quote:
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Haha I love it Thanks for being a good conversationalist and sorry if I cam across as argumentative.

I do really want the CS hood and wish the CF roof was a factory option. Not so much for performance but for the looks!
I didn't think you were for what it was worth. My wife tells me I tend toward pedantic, and that's a bad combo on the internet. Engineering thing maybe .

I've thought about black wrapping the roof on my 335i for the looks as well. I think the black roof looks good as a factory option on Stinger's and Camry's, so... The overall look of the CS was a draw for me in that it's just flashy enough that it's clearly a bit sporty and people that know cars really well may recognize it. At the same time, it won't draw attention at stop lights and gas stations like many other cars that are as capable would. The little touches of the gorgeous hood, the winged splitter, the finned diffuser, are all things that I love on it.
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      01-13-2020, 11:16 AM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
I didn't think you were for what it was worth. My wife tells me I tend toward pedantic, and that's a bad combo on the internet. Engineering thing maybe .

I've thought about black wrapping the roof on my 335i for the looks as well. I think the black roof looks good as a factory option on Stinger's and Camry's, so... The overall look of the CS was a draw for me in that it's just flashy enough that it's clearly a bit sporty and people that know cars really well may recognize it. At the same time, it won't draw attention at stop lights and gas stations like many other cars that are as capable would. The little touches of the gorgeous hood, the winged splitter, the finned diffuser, are all things that I love on it.
I recently learned that PPF is also available in black, had I known this when I got the car PPfed then I would have had them do the roof in black PPF.

A CS in HK with black wheels and red brakes would be my preferred config

PS I cant recommend PPF enough, saved me from lots of chips so far!
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      01-24-2020, 09:36 AM   #278
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It's a bummer that they didn't give the M2 CS the Carbon Fenders and Trunk from the M Performance catalog.
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