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M2 Technical Topics > N55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > Blown Engine/Piston (M2 modded with catted DP & BM3 tune) - Suggestions ?

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      05-20-2019, 01:09 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
OP,

Knocking has been by far the most popular source for mechanical failure of internal components (piston, rod), or the only source we've known with N55 piston failure.

IAT/Octane can cause knock. But the destructive type of knocking normally happen with a lean burn. Lean burn we often hear with piggyback because of its inability of demanding as much more fuel as boost it adds. With flash, AFR is always normal at low 12s or even high 11s, because every tuner knows that works best for N55. How could lean burn happen in your case then?

Without seeing your log, this is only my speculation:

The IAT goes very high when tracking (AA IC is 10~15F better than stock at best), and BM3 OTS map sets a boost cap. They combined makes the VE(volumetric Efficiency), or simply air volume lower than when it's cold, therefore the fuel pump (to keep the targeted AFR) isn't stressed as much. However, when in-cylinder temp rises up to the point, along with many enough "soft" knocks detected, to protect the engine, DME would go much further than just retarding the ignition timing – it pulls load and dumps fuel, to cool things down. That's when fuel pump isn't able to keep up, and crash when combustion isn't cooled down enough, making a super lean burn.

It sounds like what's intended to save engine destroy it. Yes, because DME has no consideration of the fueling bottleneck when dumping fuel to cool down cylinders.

OP, fighting for warranty seems a long shot. Even with stock car, dealer can deny just because it's used on track. Unless you have reliable connection within the dealer then a different story.

I have to say our engine and DME is so smart that it's very very difficult to kill it. I've heard so many mechanical failures (not internal parts) as a indirect result of a broken 3rd party component. But not that engine itself isn't protective enough to handle the rough conditions.

If you want to continue with the mod game, you can take a look at CP piston, which can lower compression ratio to significantly improve knock resistance. Also mean that you can go higher boost than a normal N55 without having higher octane. It's expensive but OEM piston isn't cheap either.

Or you go conservative and find a way to buy cheap OEM. And use ACN maps and log until you have upgraded hardwares and/or better octane.
Highlighted in BOLD... not true at all. On the factory calibration, it would not let it get to that point under any circumstance. With a custom CAL all bets are thrown out the window depending on how far into the CAL has been done to account for all the limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
Unfortunately, those were the only logs that were able to be saved. I was sure I turned on data logging for my last run but apparently it didn't save.

Any guesses as to the strange IAT climb?

As mentioned, it wasn't even a hot day and I didn't even run back to back.

Could this be tune related or hardware related.

I will send to PTF for review and update.


Really wish you had WGDC, actual oil temp ( not just the counters ), EGT modelled, as well as Manifold boost pressure logged there.

The IAT's were simply not under control, that map also looked more like a stage 2 93 octane N55 map, and not a stage 1 91.

You were definitely running a more aggressive tune than what your fuel can call for.
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Last edited by cookiesowns; 05-20-2019 at 01:19 AM..
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      05-20-2019, 01:57 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiesowns View Post
Highlighted in BOLD... not true at all. On the factory calibration, it would not let it get to that point under any circumstance. With a custom CAL all bets are thrown out the window depending on how far into the CAL has been done to account for all the limits.
Joe,

What I meant is - neither factory nor aftermarket calibration has a preventative measure to "ensure" fueling capacity. The save net is pulling off load when rail pressure drop to a point which is untouched. Likewise, you can demand as much boost as you want, turbo is just not making it and can die keeping trying. There is no control or monitor over its shaft speed, at least with our platform.

You're right though that at factory aggressiveness it's nearly impossible to get to this point. And the OTS tune is clearly not calibrated for track use and without high octane. But let's be honest, how aggressive can the 16psi top end boost target be? Actual boost should be 15 or so thanks to the 1+psi underboost calibrated in.

At the end, were you implying that the tuner is partially responsible?
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      05-20-2019, 09:17 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
Hi all,

Went on a track day car and went into limp mode twice with no engine light or warnings and at last session car suddenly starting blowing white smoke from exhaust.

Went back in to check and engine oil had splattered all over the engine bay.

Initially thought it was an issue with the turbo as it couldn't spook properly.

Painfully towed it back to my mechanic.

After checking on the car with my mechanic it seems one piston is broken (missing a chunk) and one is scratched. Boost leaked through and pushed oil through the valve cover likely destroying the PCV module along with it.

Engine mods:
VRSF catted DP and charge pipe
K&N filter
AA intercooler
BM3

Any suggests on next steps?

New engine? revert back to stock and try to fight for warranty?

Rebuild?
Which Map you were running?
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      05-20-2019, 11:01 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Joe,

What I meant is - neither factory nor aftermarket calibration has a preventative measure to "ensure" fueling capacity. The save net is pulling off load when rail pressure drop to a point which is untouched. Likewise, you can demand as much boost as you want, turbo is just not making it and can die keeping trying. There is no control or monitor over its shaft speed, at least with our platform.

You're right though that at factory aggressiveness it's nearly impossible to get to this point. And the OTS tune is clearly not calibrated for track use and without high octane. But let's be honest, how aggressive can the 16psi top end boost target be? Actual boost should be 15 or so thanks to the 1+psi underboost calibrated in.

At the end, were you implying that the tuner is partially responsible?
Iíd love to get your input on how to ensure something like this does not happen.

Iím running basically the same mods (vrsf ic vrsf charge pipe vrsf dp and a BM3 Stage 1 93 octane) I have access to 94 octane where I am and do shorter runs with lapping atleast once a month. Is his issue likely caused by fueling or cooling?
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      05-20-2019, 12:59 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Joe,

What I meant is - neither factory nor aftermarket calibration has a preventative measure to "ensure" fueling capacity. The save net is pulling off load when rail pressure drop to a point which is untouched. Likewise, you can demand as much boost as you want, turbo is just not making it and can die keeping trying. There is no control or monitor over its shaft speed, at least with our platform.

You're right though that at factory aggressiveness it's nearly impossible to get to this point. And the OTS tune is clearly not calibrated for track use and without high octane. But let's be honest, how aggressive can the 16psi top end boost target be? Actual boost should be 15 or so thanks to the 1+psi underboost calibrated in.

At the end, were you implying that the tuner is partially responsible?
Actually on the M2 thereís a table that references lambda and rpm to load. Itís a table designed specifically to keep the fueling happy. When the DME starts dumping fuel to keep things in check, this table if kept in place will prevent aggressive dumpage of fuel and high load targets.

Without knowing the state of the car before and after the tune itís hard to say.

Regardless based off of the information we know, the tune was too aggressive for the state of being on the car. Not to say the OTS tunes are aggressive, just that his IATs were climbing rapidly and clearly he was encountering knock corrections
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      05-20-2019, 03:32 PM   #94
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Tune used was stage 1 91.

All PTF said was IAT climbed really quickly and an intercooler is an important upgrade.

So now the question is, is even stage 1 91 too aggressive for track on moderate gas with octane booster or is the car that delicate?

I know first hand that stock tune at least won't get super knocking at the track with stock intercooler, so is pushing that tiny bit of boost from stage 1 going to make it that dangerous?

People should be informed otherwise to be better prepared for track of it is.
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      05-20-2019, 03:36 PM   #95
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When was your last oil change done?
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      05-20-2019, 03:55 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowflash21 View Post
When was your last oil change done?
End of Nov by dealer.
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      05-20-2019, 03:59 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
End of Nov by dealer.
How many miles did you made so far, and which oil was put in? 5w30?
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      05-20-2019, 04:07 PM   #98
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Around 3-4000 km, should be 5w-30 with whatever dealership bmw oil they use.
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      05-20-2019, 04:29 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acl26 View Post
Around 3-4000 km, should be 5w-30 with whatever dealership bmw oil they use.
BMW currently uses 0w30 for the M2 in almost the entire North America, and particularly in cold regions. The primary reason though is for economy reasons. LL01 is 5w30, LL01FE is 0w30.
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      05-20-2019, 04:34 PM   #100
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Could a bad tank of fuel have caused this ? Bad as in not being the posted octane ?
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      05-20-2019, 06:58 PM   #101
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What oil is the ideal for a stage 2? 5-40?
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      05-20-2019, 10:20 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristian135 View Post
What oil is the ideal for a stage 2? 5-40?
There's a whole thread about this, and this is off topic. Consensus seems to be that if you're in a hot environment (e.g Arizona, SoCal etc.) Then LL01 5w40 might be best, or a thick 0w30 like Redline. In colder climates, maybe 0w30 in the winter. Check out the dedicated thread though for more info.

Pretty unlikely that the wrong oil would cause a piston fracture though. Far more likely to be super knock.
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      05-21-2019, 03:12 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
The DP alone will sink you with a warranty claim.. Tampering with a Federally mandated emission control device is a easy win if you try to sue them, you'll lose just on sheer principle.

I love how naive and spry folks are in believing that the dealer has to abide by any MMA requirements or what ever empty threat you throw at them would actually sway their decision; if they have any reasonable suspicion that the vehicle was abused, modded, or tuned for more power that was allowed stock, they'll be happy to tell you to go kick rocks..

What you going to do then? There is no financial recourse except unsuccessfully suing them, which could drag on for years..

I'm pretty sure BM3 leaves a shadow code in ROM regardless if you flash it back to stock, which they would be able to retrieve. Best bet is beg for the mercy of a goodwill repair.
Respectfully I disagree with your opinion on the dp. Violating an emissions control device has nothing to do with a manufactures warranty for an unrelated part (dp cannot damage an engine).
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      05-21-2019, 03:25 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skiparock View Post
Respectfully I disagree with your opinion on the dp. Violating an emissions control device has nothing to do with a manufactures warranty for an unrelated part (dp cannot damage an engine).
Anything that makes the engine produce more power than stock would be enough to deny coverage.
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      05-21-2019, 05:22 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skiparock View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
The DP alone will sink you with a warranty claim.. Tampering with a Federally mandated emission control device is a easy win if you try to sue them, you'll lose just on sheer principle.

I love how naive and spry folks are in believing that the dealer has to abide by any MMA requirements or what ever empty threat you throw at them would actually sway their decision; if they have any reasonable suspicion that the vehicle was abused, modded, or tuned for more power that was allowed stock, they'll be happy to tell you to go kick rocks..

What you going to do then? There is no financial recourse except unsuccessfully suing them, which could drag on for years..

I'm pretty sure BM3 leaves a shadow code in ROM regardless if you flash it back to stock, which they would be able to retrieve. Best bet is beg for the mercy of a goodwill repair.
Respectfully I disagree with your opinion on the dp. Violating an emissions control device has nothing to do with a manufactures warranty for an unrelated part (dp cannot damage an engine).
So if having an aftermarket downpipe doesn't allow them to deny coverage, why try to conceal it then?

Why not drive up in there with a test pipe smelling like a diesel truck, full FBO and a stage 9 flash tune and tell them they can't do shit; "fix my car, bitch!"

Let me know how that works out for you..

You'll playing on technicalities but I believe you know very well how dealer/warranty claim works, any mods, especially an illegally installed device to used to circumvent emission controls gives them an easy out on not fixing your vehicle, on any remotely connected issue.

If you believe otherwise, you're practicing self-deception or is grossly misguided in your ways..

Good luck when your engine goes kaboom, with that mentality, you're going to need a lot of it.
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      05-21-2019, 09:52 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiparock View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
The DP alone will sink you with a warranty claim.. Tampering with a Federally mandated emission control device is a easy win if you try to sue them, you'll lose just on sheer principle.

I love how naive and spry folks are in believing that the dealer has to abide by any MMA requirements or what ever empty threat you throw at them would actually sway their decision; if they have any reasonable suspicion that the vehicle was abused, modded, or tuned for more power that was allowed stock, they'll be happy to tell you to go kick rocks..

What you going to do then? There is no financial recourse except unsuccessfully suing them, which could drag on for years..

I'm pretty sure BM3 leaves a shadow code in ROM regardless if you flash it back to stock, which they would be able to retrieve. Best bet is beg for the mercy of a goodwill repair.
Respectfully I disagree with your opinion on the dp. Violating an emissions control device has nothing to do with a manufactures warranty for an unrelated part (dp cannot damage an engine).
So if having an aftermarket downpipe doesn't allow them to deny coverage, why try to conceal it then?

Why not drive up in there with a test pipe smelling like a diesel truck, full FBO and a stage 9 flash tune and tell them they can't do shit; "fix my car, bitch!"

Let me know how that works out for you..

You'll playing on technicalities but I believe you know very well how dealer/warranty claim works, any mods, especially an illegally installed device to used to circumvent emission controls gives them an easy out on not fixing your vehicle, on any remotely connected issue.

If you believe otherwise, you're practicing self-deception or is grossly misguided in your ways..

Good luck when your engine goes kaboom, with that mentality, you're going to need a lot of it.
Getting a little emotional over there.

I said nothing about any other mod, only a dp.
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      05-22-2019, 02:16 AM   #107
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OPs logs didn't look good at WOT. He had timing pull on 2 cylinders, often negative values. I wouldn't be tracking a car unless I had the fuel situation dialed in with proper octane and multiple clean logs. The fact he didn't even have a clean single or two gear pull to redline seems like he just flashed and drove the shit outta it. Our fuel in Western Canada is garbage, you need 1/3 can of Torco or Boostane just to run 91 OTS on the piss they sell us as 94. Even if you filled up in Washington State, the refinery feedstock is the same Oilsands heavy as Western Canada. It makes garbage gasoline and no one in government calls out the refiners.

All the rest of the downpipe nonsense is just the usual naysayers babbling on about nothing once someone has an issue. People get all high and mighty about emissions while enough natural gas is flared in the Permian everyday to power the state of Texas. Please.

This was probably super knock due to shitty fuel and being oblivious about it. The problem with BM3 and MHD, it's too accessible to people who don't do the research, test everything out and verify it's safe. Expensive mistake, but the dealer and BMW Canada will most definitely tell you to pound sand. Just tracking the car voids the warranty, nevermind the rest of it.

Next step should be a used motor from an M235i or an M2 that someone wrote off. Get a third party BMW shop to do the work. You will probably pay $15-20k CAD for the dealer to put a fresh one in from Germany.
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      05-22-2019, 10:06 AM   #108
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so given the fact that gas is variable, should we be running the 91 octane map for areas that have 93 to be safe? My IAT is around 75 to 80 and I'm getting shit timing through the gears with negative in 4th, no knock events but worries the shit out of me. Live in Ct and using 93 but not shell, I'm going to buy a can of torco and see what the logs say.
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      05-22-2019, 10:41 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nismoman View Post
so given the fact that gas is variable, should we be running the 91 octane map for areas that have 93 to be safe? My IAT is around 75 to 80 and I'm getting shit timing through the gears with negative in 4th, no knock events but worries the shit out of me. Live in Ct and using 93 but not shell, I'm going to buy a can of torco and see what the logs say.
I get knock on the stock tune on California gas.
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      05-22-2019, 10:50 AM   #110
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My M2 isn't tuned, but my old N55 335i that was tuned with MHD had timing pulls on 91 octane gas when the car was bone stock and running the stock map. Stage 1 didn't seem to make the timing any worse.

For me, the fix was filling up with 92 octane from WA whenever I could as it would barely have any timing corrections. Just in case I couldn't fill up down there I always had a couple small gas cans of e85 that I could add to our crap Canadian 91. I would mix 10-15% e85 to a full tank of 91 and that would also fix the timing corrections.

I don't think I'd tune an M2 where we live unless you're willing to jump through the hoops of getting better quality gas.
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