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M2 Technical Topics > N55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > Bootmod3 M2 OTS map update - Version 5.6

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      03-20-2019, 09:27 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by M2MGM View Post
Was your inquiry related to track use..or daily use ?
Perhaps the Stg 2 93 will prove be too aggressive for summer track use, so they recommended Stg 1...maybe ?
Having said that, I had V5.6 on track last weekend and it performed flawlessly...ambients were only 75 F max tho.
They never asked what I'd be using it for but if they did I'd tell them no track use.
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      03-20-2019, 09:35 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
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Originally Posted by Halim@HCP View Post
We had the stage 2 91 and 93 dynod today. Approx 385-390whp.

Customer thinks car was tuned already by a random company.
Does that dyno show both the 91 and 93? If so, it appears that the 91 map in green is the same or slightly better. Seems counter to everything I have heard about octane being critical to this platform. Maybe only when it's hotter.
The actual gas in the car with all these runs should be the same, which is good gas apparently.

The 91 and 93 shown in the picture refer to the map version (different aggressiveness). Like what you've read all along, aggressiveness doesn't necessarily make power. Octane (of the gas in your tank) does. That explains all.
So if there is 93 octane in the car, wouldn't use of the 93 map make more power than the 91 map? The dyno doesn't show any material difference between the two maps, so does that mean the car was not properly equipped or didn't have high enough octane to take advantage of the more aggressive map?

Trying to make some decisions based upon these data points for my own 18 LCI FBO running the 93. Why would I continue running a more aggressive map that doesn't make as much power as opposed to using the 91 map?
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      03-20-2019, 11:40 AM   #91
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Guys it's important to note the limitations of your local fuel. The octane rating might not be very accurate depending on where you are which is why it is important to log your runs with each map.

"Stages" are a useless arbitrary term and in reality basically just refers to how much boost the map targets.

For example: even though you might have access to 93 oct gas in your area, it might not truly be 93 oct and therefore your car might respond better to the 91oct maps regardless of either stage 1 or stage 2. And even then perhaps

Mods play a part in your POTENTIAL to run higher boost (aka higher stages) but fuel is the ultimate limiting factor

Disclaimer: I am no expert but I like to read and gather as much information as I can to make informed decisions.
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      03-20-2019, 11:43 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
So if there is 93 octane in the car, wouldn't use of the 93 map make more power than the 91 map? The dyno doesn't show any material difference between the two maps, so does that mean the car was not properly equipped or didn't have high enough octane to take advantage of the more aggressive map?

Trying to make some decisions based upon these data points for my own 18 LCI FBO running the 93. Why would I continue running a more aggressive map that doesn't make as much power as opposed to using the 91 map?
Octane wasnt good, so he went with the 91OCT map.
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      03-20-2019, 12:07 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Halim@HCP View Post
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Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
So if there is 93 octane in the car, wouldn't use of the 93 map make more power than the 91 map? The dyno doesn't show any material difference between the two maps, so does that mean the car was not properly equipped or didn't have high enough octane to take advantage of the more aggressive map?

Trying to make some decisions based upon these data points for my own 18 LCI FBO running the 93. Why would I continue running a more aggressive map that doesn't make as much power as opposed to using the 91 map?
Octane wasnt good, so he went with the 91OCT map.
Is there a difference between the 91 and 93 maps other than timing?
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      03-20-2019, 12:18 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
Guys it's important to note the limitations of your local fuel. The octane rating might not be very accurate depending on where you are which is why it is important to log your runs with each map.

"Stages" are a useless arbitrary term and in reality basically just refers to how much boost the map targets.

For example: even though you might have access to 93 oct gas in your area, it might not truly be 93 oct and therefore your car might respond better to the 91oct maps regardless of either stage 1 or stage 2. And even then perhaps

Mods play a part in your POTENTIAL to run higher boost (aka higher stages) but fuel is the ultimate limiting factor

Disclaimer: I am no expert but I like to read and gather as much information as I can to make informed decisions.
In Texas, the dept of agriculture routinely spot checks fuel stations for octane levels, water, contaminants, distillation, vapor pressure, and ethanol. The octane level cannot be lower than the posted number. If found under the number, the TDA will place penalties and stop sales on the seller.

All that said in Texas, the posted octane is what you will get as a general rule of thumb. The detergent levels are a major difference where Shell has routinely tested the highest levels in their 93.

I do wonder if the map is possibly too aggressive relying on something slightly more than 93 since its an art not science. In other words, how does Halim make adjustments right up to 93 without causing a knock without extensive testing with exactly 93 octane fuel. If you are worried about knock damage(if that can happen in the n55), then it seems prudent to go with the 91 map or maybe the last release of the 93 that wasn't as aggressive.

Question for Halim - how do you know if your map has gone over the 93 threshold? Does it matter?
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      03-20-2019, 12:26 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
Guys it's important to note the limitations of your local fuel. The octane rating might not be very accurate depending on where you are which is why it is important to log your runs with each map.

"Stages" are a useless arbitrary term and in reality basically just refers to how much boost the map targets.

For example: even though you might have access to 93 oct gas in your area, it might not truly be 93 oct and therefore your car might respond better to the 91oct maps regardless of either stage 1 or stage 2. And even then perhaps

Mods play a part in your POTENTIAL to run higher boost (aka higher stages) but fuel is the ultimate limiting factor

Disclaimer: I am no expert but I like to read and gather as much information as I can to make informed decisions.
In Texas, the dept of agriculture routinely spot checks fuel stations for octane levels, water, contaminants, distillation, vapor pressure, and ethanol. The octane level cannot be lower than the posted number. If found under the number, the TDA will place penalties and stop sales on the seller.

All that said in Texas, the posted octane is what you will get as a general rule of thumb. The detergent levels are a major difference where Shell has routinely tested the highest levels in their 93.

I do wonder if the map is possibly too aggressive relying on something slightly more than 93 since its an art not science. In other words, how does Halim make adjustments right up to 93 without causing a knock without extensive testing with exactly 93 octane fuel. If you are worried about knock damage(if that can happen in the n55), then it seems prudent to go with the 91 map or maybe the last release of the 93 that wasn't as aggressive.

Question for Halim - how do you know if your map has gone over the 93 threshold? Does it matter?
Good points but I also want to add that our USA oct rating is AKI which is an average between two values: RON and MON

So possible variances between RON and MON value can still come to a "valid" AKI number but can affect your timings. Halim is in Denmark I believe so their fuel is RON

There is good 93 AKI fuel in the USA but since it varies so much from location to location taking logs to confirm your findings is the best thing to do
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      03-20-2019, 12:32 PM   #96
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I believe the car used to develop V5.6 may have been using 99 RON gasoline, which translates to 94-95 octane. Halim please correct if thatís incorrect.
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      03-20-2019, 12:33 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackPride85 View Post
Is there a difference between the 91 and 93 maps other than timing?
91OCT runs a little richer too up top.
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      03-20-2019, 12:58 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
Guys it's important to note the limitations of your local fuel. The octane rating might not be very accurate depending on where you are which is why it is important to log your runs with each map.

"Stages" are a useless arbitrary term and in reality basically just refers to how much boost the map targets.

For example: even though you might have access to 93 oct gas in your area, it might not truly be 93 oct and therefore your car might respond better to the 91oct maps regardless of either stage 1 or stage 2. And even then perhaps

Mods play a part in your POTENTIAL to run higher boost (aka higher stages) but fuel is the ultimate limiting factor

Disclaimer: I am no expert but I like to read and gather as much information as I can to make informed decisions.
In Texas, the dept of agriculture routinely spot checks fuel stations for octane levels, water, contaminants, distillation, vapor pressure, and ethanol. The octane level cannot be lower than the posted number. If found under the number, the TDA will place penalties and stop sales on the seller.

All that said in Texas, the posted octane is what you will get as a general rule of thumb. The detergent levels are a major difference where Shell has routinely tested the highest levels in their 93.

I do wonder if the map is possibly too aggressive relying on something slightly more than 93 since its an art not science. In other words, how does Halim make adjustments right up to 93 without causing a knock without extensive testing with exactly 93 octane fuel. If you are worried about knock damage(if that can happen in the n55), then it seems prudent to go with the 91 map or maybe the last release of the 93 that wasn't as aggressive.

Question for Halim - how do you know if your map has gone over the 93 threshold? Does it matter?
Good points but I also want to add that our USA oct rating is AKI which is an average between two values: RON and MON

So possible variances between RON and MON value can still come to a "valid" AKI number but can affect your timings. Halim is in Denmark I believe so their fuel is RON

There is good 93 AKI fuel in the USA but since it varies so much from location to location taking logs to confirm your findings is the best thing to do
Agree - 93 AKI = 97.4 RON. So if Halim is targeting and testing on anything more than 97.4 RON than the map would be too aggressive for US 93 fuels. We need to make some assumptions, so I will assume that Shell 93 is 93 AKI based on a reputable company and a seller that isn't purposely diluting or mixing to improve profit margins due to controls. I think the main questions I am trying to sort out are:

-how does Halim target a specific octane? Is it science? is it know how with testing? Or asked another way, how precisely does the 93 map target 93 AKI fuel?

Naturally there is a second question

-Does using an overly aggressive map for the fueled octane cause any damage?

The answer to these plus somebody's confidence in their fuel will tell them how to make decisions utilizing the various maps.

I have tested a couple times on the 5.5 map and I found one knock on one pull, and no knocks on others. I would have to do a lot of testing on stock, 91 map, and 93 maps to get enough data points to start making some kind of an assessment. It would be interesting to see if the stock gets knocks on 91. That would tell me BMW doesn't care if the knock sensors go off because they have systems to deal with it and thus they are not concerned about damage.
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      03-20-2019, 01:38 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
Agree - 93 AKI = 97.4 RON. So if Halim is targeting and testing on anything more than 97.4 RON than the map would be too aggressive for US 93 fuels. We need to make some assumptions, so I will assume that Shell 93 is 93 AKI based on a reputable company and a seller that isn't purposely diluting or mixing to improve profit margins due to controls. I think the main questions I am trying to sort out are:

-how does Halim target a specific octane? Is it science? is it know how with testing? Or asked another way, how precisely does the 93 map target 93 AKI fuel?

Naturally there is a second question

-Does using an overly aggressive map for the fueled octane cause any damage?

The answer to these plus somebody's confidence in their fuel will tell them how to make decisions utilizing the various maps.

I have tested a couple times on the 5.5 map and I found one knock on one pull, and no knocks on others. I would have to do a lot of testing on stock, 91 map, and 93 maps to get enough data points to start making some kind of an assessment. It would be interesting to see if the stock gets knocks on 91. That would tell me BMW doesn't care if the knock sensors go off because they have systems to deal with it and thus they are not concerned about damage.
Ok so, we look at different logging channels when we tune. Boost, timing, AFR and IAT are very important.

Octane affects timing, the higher the octane the higher ignition is possible resulting in higher power. We do not push the OTS maps to max, there is always a little room, why?

I've seen that the 93OCT can be good, but then you could have the perfect 93OCT but a very hot weather. There are too many variables that come into play, that's why we do NOT push the OTS maps to maximum. It's done in a way so it suits the majority of the cars, regardless if the octane is 92.7 or 93.x, hot or cold weather. Basically like OEM, just more power.
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      03-20-2019, 03:12 PM   #100
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Is it bad to run the Stage 2, 93 octane map with 91 octane gas?
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      03-20-2019, 04:55 PM   #101
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OTS maps are called "off the shelf" for a reason. They are designed to work with all cars without the tune needing to be modified. This is why halim doesn't push these OTS maps to the max. If you want a tune tailored specifically for your car in your environment with your gas to get maximum power, get a custom tune at a local shop.
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      03-20-2019, 04:57 PM   #102
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Is it bad to run the Stage 2, 93 octane map with 91 octane gas?
Your car will not benefit for it, you actually will make less power as it will keep pulling timing throughout the revrange.
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      03-20-2019, 05:03 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackPride85 View Post
OTS maps are called "off the shelf" for a reason. They are designed to work with all cars without the tune needing to be modified. This is why halim doesn't push these OTS maps to the max. If you want a tune tailored specifically for your car in your environment with your gas to get maximum power, get a custom tune at a local shop.
Amen to that !
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      03-20-2019, 05:44 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halim@HCP View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PackPride85 View Post
OTS maps are called "off the shelf" for a reason. They are designed to work with all cars without the tune needing to be modified. This is why halim doesn't push these OTS maps to the max. If you want a tune tailored specifically for your car in your environment with your gas to get maximum power, get a custom tune at a local shop.
Amen to that !
By any chance is there an ACN 91 map being developed for the M2? I see the M3/M4 S55 guys have it and I think we would really benefit as well
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      03-20-2019, 05:45 PM   #105
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By any chance is there an ACN 91 map being developed for the M2? I see the M3/M4 S55 guys have it and I think we would really benefit as well
If you open a ticket and provide logs on your 91 octane map we could add it.
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      03-20-2019, 05:48 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halim@HCP View Post
If you open a ticket and provide logs on your 91 octane map we could add it.
Same apply for a Dinan turbo? I heard that you guys might be developing one. I know a guinea pig if you need one
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      03-20-2019, 06:28 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmiljanic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nioh_lbbm2 View Post
Guys it's important to note the limitations of your local fuel. The octane rating might not be very accurate depending on where you are which is why it is important to log your runs with each map.

"Stages" are a useless arbitrary term and in reality basically just refers to how much boost the map targets.

For example: even though you might have access to 93 oct gas in your area, it might not truly be 93 oct and therefore your car might respond better to the 91oct maps regardless of either stage 1 or stage 2. And even then perhaps

Mods play a part in your POTENTIAL to run higher boost (aka higher stages) but fuel is the ultimate limiting factor

Disclaimer: I am no expert but I like to read and gather as much information as I can to make informed decisions.
In Texas, the dept of agriculture routinely spot checks fuel stations for octane levels, water, contaminants, distillation, vapor pressure, and ethanol. The octane level cannot be lower than the posted number. If found under the number, the TDA will place penalties and stop sales on the seller.

All that said in Texas, the posted octane is what you will get as a general rule of thumb. The detergent levels are a major difference where Shell has routinely tested the highest levels in their 93.

I do wonder if the map is possibly too aggressive relying on something slightly more than 93 since its an art not science. In other words, how does Halim make adjustments right up to 93 without causing a knock without extensive testing with exactly 93 octane fuel. If you are worried about knock damage(if that can happen in the n55), then it seems prudent to go with the 91 map or maybe the last release of the 93 that wasn't as aggressive.

Question for Halim - how do you know if your map has gone over the 93 threshold? Does it matter?
Good points but I also want to add that our USA oct rating is AKI which is an average between two values: RON and MON

So possible variances between RON and MON value can still come to a "valid" AKI number but can affect your timings. Halim is in Denmark I believe so their fuel is RON

There is good 93 AKI fuel in the USA but since it varies so much from location to location taking logs to confirm your findings is the best thing to do
Agree - 93 AKI = 97.4 RON. So if Halim is targeting and testing on anything more than 97.4 RON than the map would be too aggressive for US 93 fuels. We need to make some assumptions, so I will assume that Shell 93 is 93 AKI based on a reputable company and a seller that isn't purposely diluting or mixing to improve profit margins due to controls. I think the main questions I am trying to sort out are:

-how does Halim target a specific octane? Is it science? is it know how with testing? Or asked another way, how precisely does the 93 map target 93 AKI fuel?

Naturally there is a second question

-Does using an overly aggressive map for the fueled octane cause any damage?

The answer to these plus somebody's confidence in their fuel will tell them how to make decisions utilizing the various maps.

I have tested a couple times on the 5.5 map and I found one knock on one pull, and no knocks on others. I would have to do a lot of testing on stock, 91 map, and 93 maps to get enough data points to start making some kind of an assessment. It would be interesting to see if the stock gets knocks on 91. That would tell me BMW doesn't care if the knock sensors go off because they have systems to deal with it and thus they are not concerned about damage.
I can tell you that bmw stock map gets knock on 91 in northern California.
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      03-20-2019, 09:08 PM   #108
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Just opened a ticket with bootmod3 regarding ACN 91. Hoping for good news
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      03-20-2019, 09:17 PM   #109
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I’d probably have a Boostane subscription if I had to deal with ACN 91. Good luck!
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      03-20-2019, 11:01 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halim@HCP View Post
Ok so, we look at different logging channels when we tune. Boost, timing, AFR and IAT are very important.

Octane affects timing, the higher the octane the higher ignition is possible resulting in higher power. We do not push the OTS maps to max, there is always a little room, why?

I've seen that the 93OCT can be good, but then you could have the perfect 93OCT but a very hot weather. There are too many variables that come into play, that's why we do NOT push the OTS maps to maximum. It's done in a way so it suits the majority of the cars, regardless if the octane is 92.7 or 93.x, hot or cold weather. Basically like OEM, just more power.
Everyone seems to be afraid of the "unfulfilled power potential" of their car and is extremely happy to know you add more aggression to the OTS. But really they're trading power consistency for it.

From new logs, I don't really think US 93OCT is able to handle V5.7 on hot days. I even doubt Dinan turbo be enough to do it. Guys here must be much more excited than worried to hear that and cannot wait to try V5.7. Human nature.

Though I'm sure in Europe with better gas and cooler temp, V5.7 works very well.

To my standard, with western USA pump gas, V5.7 is over aggressive that it be best run with the STG2 turbo (bigger turbine and low manifold back pressure) which requires less octane for any given boost.

N55 is and has always been more of the little octane game, than anything else.
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