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      12-12-2018, 06:19 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Doesn't seem like they want to include CSF in the testing or planning. They went ahead without talking to them so each agreed on the process. I wouldn't if I was CSF. Was a dick move showing VSRF rather hurt reputations than do things together. And not agreeing on the process beforehand just leaves it open for disagreements in unfair testing, which invalidates everything.
Maybe they were worried or knew their thick race cores may drop IAT's but sacrifice so much airflow to the radiator it was unsuitable for long track use, hence they only wanted to do iat tests. Maybe on the track the CSF intercooler with it's tube design was able to shed heat quicker after slow low air flow turns which cause heat soak, and the vrsf couldn't idk.

But it would beneficial to test both coolers under the widest range of circumstances now while testers are available to do so, than do one test and claim one product is better in all circumstances due to one variable and have that circulate on the forum forever.

I don't even understand why doing different tests would be more expensive, like does it cost more to do additional pulls? I understand track testing would cost money and repetive Dyno pulls would as well but that's what vendor collab would be for right? (Plus did the wager include something about same power level but lower temps? So wouldn't a Dyno be required anyways? So one pull on the street + logs wouldn't satisfy it right?)
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      12-12-2018, 07:22 PM   #156
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There are brands who are simply reselling intercoolers made elsewhere. they're either buying cores (mostly overseas) and welding their own tanks, or simply buying the entire unit and branding it their own.
There is a "basic" consumer in this business who falls for the "thickest core" "densest fin pack" "this or that", etc, etc..
there is also a customer who is in motorsports, and understands their has to be a harmonious balance between the weight, performance of the cooler, and airflow into the rest of the system.

I've now asked 3 times (twice before) - what is the weight of the VRSF cooler, and other basic specs which would help in comparison.. no answers.

if you want to buy the biggest and the densest core because that is what you think is the best, there is a option for that. If you want to buy a true motorsports "proven" solution, there is CSF.

To give you an idea.. I had a visitor today. The owner of PWR - the cooling company the manufacturers all of the cooling products for all F1 and Nascar teams. This is the level that CSF is at, not buying alibaba cores online, and giving forum guys purchased samples (no transparency) the option to test.

If you want to do a single pull, and call it a day - i'll hack up the front of an M2, hang a bus intercooler in front of it, and show you low IAT's - a single pull, or 1 round of pulls.. what is that going to accomplish? That you have a very big intercooler? but do you win races, and can you keep the car cool in 100 degree heat in a BMW CCA wheel-to-wheel event?

this is what CSF is all about, and this is where we try and bring the best combination of value, performance, and quality to the broader aftermarket.
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      12-12-2018, 08:17 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
There are brands who are simply reselling intercoolers made elsewhere. they're either buying cores (mostly overseas) and welding their own tanks, or simply buying the entire unit and branding it their own.
There is a "basic" consumer in this business who falls for the "thickest core" "densest fin pack" "this or that", etc, etc..
there is also a customer who is in motorsports, and understands their has to be a harmonious balance between the weight, performance of the cooler, and airflow into the rest of the system.

I've now asked 3 times (twice before) - what is the weight of the VRSF cooler, and other basic specs which would help in comparison.. no answers.

if you want to buy the biggest and the densest core because that is what you think is the best, there is a option for that. If you want to buy a true motorsports "proven" solution, there is CSF.

To give you an idea.. I had a visitor today. The owner of PWR - the cooling company the manufacturers all of the cooling products for all F1 and Nascar teams. This is the level that CSF is at, not buying alibaba cores online, and giving forum guys purchased samples (no transparency) the option to test.

If you want to do a single pull, and call it a day - i'll hack up the front of an M2, hang a bus intercooler in front of it, and show you low IAT's - a single pull, or 1 round of pulls.. what is that going to accomplish? That you have a very big intercooler? but do you win races, and can you keep the car cool in 100 degree heat in a BMW CCA wheel-to-wheel event?

this is what CSF is all about, and this is where we try and bring the best combination of value, performance, and quality to the broader aftermarket.
+1
Only issue is your IC is really expensive, I understand you have to pay more to get all the additional benefits but there comes a point where you have to factor in performance/$.

For example I live in Canada where it snows alot and then salt and gravel the roads so my intercooler fins tend to be extremely bashed up after 2 years of driving so I tend to have to replace it. So the question becomes is it worth it for a bit of extra performance (achievable with water injection and a larger more efficent stage 3 turbo) or save cash on frequent replacement?
I'd love to run CSF on my m2 but at $599 I can't justify that unless it's a huge significant improvement over the competition in both flow and iat management which I wanted to see on this test. If it was say $450-$499 I could swing it and go for it.
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      12-12-2018, 10:39 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
There are brands who are simply reselling intercoolers made elsewhere. they're either buying cores (mostly overseas) and welding their own tanks, or simply buying the entire unit and branding it their own.
There is a "basic" consumer in this business who falls for the "thickest core" "densest fin pack" "this or that", etc, etc..
there is also a customer who is in motorsports, and understands their has to be a harmonious balance between the weight, performance of the cooler, and airflow into the rest of the system.

I've now asked 3 times (twice before) - what is the weight of the VRSF cooler, and other basic specs which would help in comparison.. no answers.

if you want to buy the biggest and the densest core because that is what you think is the best, there is a option for that. If you want to buy a true motorsports "proven" solution, there is CSF.

To give you an idea.. I had a visitor today. The owner of PWR - the cooling company the manufacturers all of the cooling products for all F1 and Nascar teams. This is the level that CSF is at, not buying alibaba cores online, and giving forum guys purchased samples (no transparency) the option to test.

If you want to do a single pull, and call it a day - i'll hack up the front of an M2, hang a bus intercooler in front of it, and show you low IAT's - a single pull, or 1 round of pulls.. what is that going to accomplish? That you have a very big intercooler? but do you win races, and can you keep the car cool in 100 degree heat in a BMW CCA wheel-to-wheel event?

this is what CSF is all about, and this is where we try and bring the best combination of value, performance, and quality to the broader aftermarket.
Fully agree.

For something that was supposedly going to be a meaningful joint comparison effort, there appears to be a distinct lack of transparency from the other vendor. I don’t understand why VRSF would feel the need to buy CSF’s intercoolers for comparison - I’m sure CSF would have contributed those??

As a consumer I wouldn’t be terribly convinced by a set of logs from a single run.
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      12-12-2018, 11:15 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Doesn't seem like they want to include CSF in the testing or planning. They went ahead without talking to them so each agreed on the process. I wouldn't if I was CSF. Was a dick move showing VSRF rather hurt reputations than do things together. And not agreeing on the process beforehand just leaves it open for disagreements in unfair testing, which invalidates everything.
To be fair, this whole thing started when CSF presented a wager to us with a very specific rule set. I'm just trying to get this testing done as quickly as possible so we can donate some money to a charitable cause.

If you want to talk about the quality of someone's character I suggest you take a closer look at CSF. We were ready to squash this beef until these started floating around. Now I'm just looking forward to getting this completed before the year's end.







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      12-12-2018, 11:29 PM   #160
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Why don’t you guys quit making this a CSF vs VRSF thing, and grab some Dinan, Wagner, and other IC’s and show testing, pros/cons, and price points.

That was the whole point of Mike starting this conversation, and it’s now turned into another worthless, stupid Internet forum thread.
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      12-12-2018, 11:42 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
There are brands who are simply reselling intercoolers made elsewhere. they're either buying cores (mostly overseas) and welding their own tanks, or simply buying the entire unit and branding it their own.
So did you design that intercooler or did ATM? Because what you're selling is a relabeled ATM which is made in China. I mean we're driving cars made in Germany and communicating with devices made in China, I really don't think the country a product is made is relevant, especially when import records aren't that difficult to pull up

I'm proud of the fact that VRSF designed/engineered/tested the f30 Race intercooler from the ground up in house, in the US. The same goes for the e90 race intercooler which holds multiple n54 world records. I understand that you only offer one intercooler for this platform which is why you keep stressing the importance of "balance" and I completely agree which is the exact reason we offer 3 different intercoolers for this platform. We don't have to compromise nearly as much since we offer multiple flavors ranging from the daily commuter to the 10 second drag car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
If you want to do a single pull, and call it a day - i'll hack up the front of an M2, hang a bus intercooler in front of it, and show you low IAT's - a single pull, or 1 round of pulls.. what is that going to accomplish? That you have a very big intercooler? but do you win races, and can you keep the car cool in 100 degree heat in a BMW CCA wheel-to-wheel event?
Are you really trying to go back on your word by adding stipulations to your original wager? This was about your current intercooler vs the VRSF Race FMIC through one pull.

The questions you're asking have no relevance to the wager you made. They're questions that should have been asked before you threw $5k on the table. It's a bit obvious that you got caught with your pants down before bothering to take the time to research the competition. If you want to back out of your original wager by attempting to add stipulations we'll just have to post the results anyway and donate for you.

For everyone else who wanted to see an actual intercooler comparison, you can expect a more thorough comparison in the spring after we've finished moving into our new facility. I know you guys wanted something more comprehensive but we simply can't commit the time to a proper comparison during the holidays.
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      12-13-2018, 12:01 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
So did you design that intercooler or did ATM? Because what you're selling is a relabeled ATM which is made in China. I mean we're driving cars made in Germany and communicating with devices made in China, I really don't think the country a product is made is relevant. BTW your import records aren't that difficult to pull up

I'm proud of the fact that VRSF designed/engineered/tested the f30 Race intercooler from the ground up in house, in the US. The same goes for the e90 race intercooler which holds multiple n54 world records. I understand that you only offer one intercooler for this platform which is why you keep stressing the importance of "balance" and I completely agree which is the exact reason we offer 3 different intercoolers for this platform. We don't have to compromise nearly as much since we offer multiple flavors ranging from the daily commuter to the 10 second drag car.



Are you really trying to go back on your word by adding stipulations to your original wager? This was about your current intercooler vs the VRSF Race FMIC through one pull.

The questions you're asking have no relevance to the wager you made. They're questions that should have been asked before you threw $5k on the table. It's a bit obvious that you got caught with your pants down before bothering to take the time to research the competition. If you want to back out of your original wager by attempting to add stipulations we'll just have to post the results anyway and donate for you.

For everyone else who wanted to see an actual intercooler comparison, you can expect a more thorough comparison in the spring after we've finished moving into our new facility. I know you guys wanted something more comprehensive but we simply can't commit the time to a proper comparison during the holidays.
Well I'm just excited to see some data.

I also did see that ATM on the other forum claim CSF stole their B tune fin design or something about that in regards to their intercoolers idk, it's not my place to say.

Btw what does lifetime warranty cover? Does that include fin damage from rocks? Because if it does then it's a no brainier for me to pick that option.

Edit- if you guys could get some street core data that'd be great too.

Last edited by F87source; 12-13-2018 at 12:11 AM..
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      12-13-2018, 01:11 AM   #163
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This "competition" has degraded to the point that there is a lot of mis information.. So we'll just let it be what it is..
Somehow Tiago thinks we're sourcing an intercooler from some other factory than our own. If you can check import logs, please check the over 450 containers, and over 500,000 parts that came from CSF factories... It's a family business, privately owned factories or joint ventures (due to local laws) and we've sold over 35 million coolers worldwide.. We're operating on a different level than you, it's just simply the facts.

In regards to the CSF intercooler versus others on the market.
There is still only 1 intercooler for the N55 platform worldwide that has TUV approval in Germany. That is CSF's. I believe even Wagner, a German company does not have this certification. This certification is the highest for aftermarket parts in the world. Means that it meets or exceeds performance, durability, and reliability standards to the OEM part.

- We've had to invest significant money into getting this certification, and the engineering / R&D of a motorsport part is not cheap. Hence, you get what you pay for.. You may be paying a little bit more for a CSF intercooler, but you're also getting a part made by a Tier-1 OEM supplier To some people this is worth the higher price.

CSF's n55 intercoolers come with a protective powder-coating that can also withstand salt corrosion.
All CSF products are tested in house on the following machines: wind-tunnel, vibration, salt spray, thermal cycle and burst pressure..

I'd be happy to answer any questions about the product, and also refer to videos, logs, and race results from teams and drivers that are independently published online.
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      12-13-2018, 01:30 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF View Post
So did you design that intercooler or did ATM? Because what you're selling is a relabeled ATM which is made in China.
To be fair, the CSF isn't a re-labelled ATM as I've had both in hand examined both closely. ATM uses a single core where CSF's looks to be two cores (upper and lower). Also the ATM lower core has a higher fin density behind the front row of fins. That said, I absolutely believe it's a derivative of ATM's since all the dimensions and end tanks are practically identical (typically within 1mm).

If you want to have a retail channel IC sent to me, I have another track weekend coming up in Jan. and can compare on back to back days like I did in my ATM and Wagner Evo 2 Comp Comparison. Same track as that comparison too. A good metric to look at in addition to the charge air cooler temps is the average top speed on the straights there, as that directly relates to lap times.
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      12-13-2018, 03:14 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
This "competition" has degraded to the point that there is a lot of mis information.. So we'll just let it be what it is..
Somehow Tiago thinks we're sourcing an intercooler from some other factory than our own. If you can check import logs, please check the over 450 containers, and over 500,000 parts that came from CSF factories... It's a family business, privately owned factories or joint ventures (due to local laws) and we've sold over 35 million coolers worldwide.. We're operating on a different level than you, it's just simply the facts.

In regards to the CSF intercooler versus others on the market.
There is still only 1 intercooler for the N55 platform worldwide that has TUV approval in Germany. That is CSF's. I believe even Wagner, a German company does not have this certification. This certification is the highest for aftermarket parts in the world. Means that it meets or exceeds performance, durability, and reliability standards to the OEM part.

- We've had to invest significant money into getting this certification, and the engineering / R&D of a motorsport part is not cheap. Hence, you get what you pay for.. You may be paying a little bit more for a CSF intercooler, but you're also getting a part made by a Tier-1 OEM supplier To some people this is worth the higher price.

CSF's n55 intercoolers come with a protective powder-coating that can also withstand salt corrosion.
All CSF products are tested in house on the following machines: wind-tunnel, vibration, salt spray, thermal cycle and burst pressure..

I'd be happy to answer any questions about the product, and also refer to videos, logs, and race results from teams and drivers that are independently published online.
That's good to hear, but I'm not concerned about the salt since I don't drive it in the winter. The concern comes in the summer where there is left over gravel even after the salt has been long washed away by rain fall, and it's these little pebbles that damage the intercooler fins and results in frequent replacement.

The important question is if the gain is significant enough that it justifies the higher cost. Because at the end of the day if it's only a few degrees of difference that's not worth it in my books. That couple hundred dollars over time with intercooler replacements could be invested in a water injection kit that'll make a larger impact on iats. However if the temperature difference is >10°C that's really significant in my books and will justify the price delta.

That TUV standard is an Excellent achievement so I applaud you on that, but a lifetime warranty should help negate that if build quality was a concern.

- I love CSF don't get me wrong, I love your radiators and your oil coolers, but I'm not rich so I'd like to be able to utilize every dollar I have to the best of it's buying ability, instead of wasting it. As you know tracking a car properly with track insurance and everything is really expensive.
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      12-13-2018, 04:08 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
There was a guy who did it on the E series 135i, there's a thread around somewhere his name is jrturboawd. He did have to Fab up some stuff through, but the s55 air/water intercooler did fit directly onto the n55.
Useful - I'll look it up.

As the 'debate' rages in the rest of the thread, I remember something similar with the IC on the R53 Mini. Various aftermarket suppliers were claiming improvements based on increased size and design details of their products, then BMW brought out the GP. The IC on that used the same design as the original, but with the addition of a few extra rows (and longer end pieces to suit). While this minimised production costs, testing showed it to flow better, and result in a bigger drop in temperature than not just the original item, but also the aftermarket offerings.
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      12-13-2018, 04:37 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
Useful - I'll look it up.

As the 'debate' rages in the rest of the thread, I remember something similar with the IC on the R53 Mini. Various aftermarket suppliers were claiming improvements based on increased size and design details of their products, then BMW brought out the GP. The IC on that used the same design as the original, but with the addition of a few extra rows (and longer end pieces to suit). While this minimised production costs, testing showed it to flow better, and result in a bigger drop in temperature than not just the original item, but also the aftermarket offerings.
Here's the link: https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50300 if you scroll down you can see the video he posted.
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      12-13-2018, 06:37 AM   #168
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Also in all due respect, since CSF has sold 32 million intercoolers world wide shouldn't that mean you guys have hit product economy of scale? So shouldn't you guys be able to offer these intercoolers for a cheaper price minus the BMW tax? Like I would love to have a CSF intercooler but replacement costs frighten me.

But for everything else such as oil coolers and radiators (safe from rock damage mostly) where there is a clear edge in performance I am more than happy to go with CSF.
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      12-13-2018, 07:16 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Also in all due respect, since CSF has sold 32 million intercoolers world wide shouldn't that mean you guys have hit product economy of scale? So shouldn't you guys be able to offer these intercoolers for a cheaper price minus the BMW tax? Like I would love to have a CSF intercooler but replacement costs frighten me.

But for everything else such as oil coolers and radiators (safe from rock damage mostly) where there is a clear edge in performance I am more than happy to go with CSF.
i Don't think the pricing is that bad especially @ $569.00 .You pay for what you get, its a 6" cooler.
go look at the pricing of AFE,Wagner,Dinan and ER they all way more expensive, CSF is a premium brand they could have easily charged 900 dollars for the product (like Mishimoto has after the presale special is over, that even with the discount is more expensive)
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      12-13-2018, 07:38 AM   #170
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i Don't think the pricing is that bad especially @ $569.00 .You pay for what you get, its a 6" cooler.
go look at the pricing of AFE,Wagner,Dinan and ER they all way more expensive, CSF is a premium brand they could have easily charged 900 dollars for the product (like Mishimoto has after the presale special is over, that even with the discount is more expensive)
Yeah I get that and I 100% respect CSF, but what I'm more interested in is the performance/$.

I've heard (don't quote me on this) that the other intercoolers you listed above were inferior at keeping iats stable compared to the vrsf and CSF but lack of head to head conparision of intercoolers on the same car and day limit us on data. Also remember dinan offers a factory replacement warranty as well, but their dual split core design from what I've heard blocks alot of air flow to the radiator.

I normally always advocate for spending the money to get the better quality part and never cheaping out. But in this case I'm not willing to go all out on a part i treat as a consumable due to frequent damage and replacement. So on this situation I would go with the best performance/$ to best match track performance to my budget for replacement. If I lived in a sunny climate where they don't put gravel know the road then you can sure bet I would go all out and buy the best one possible, but it's not a financially smart move for me imo. Especially if a cheaper IC performs as good or a few degrees worse. Guess we will have to see from the data.

Sooner or later my m2 will be my dedicated track car and then I'll go all out, but untill then I still enjoy driving it on the street (not My DD).
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      12-13-2018, 12:34 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSF Cooling View Post
In regards to the CSF intercooler versus others on the market.
There is still only 1 intercooler for the N55 platform worldwide that has TUV approval in Germany. That is CSF's. I believe even Wagner, a German company does not have this certification. This certification is the highest for aftermarket parts in the world. Means that it meets or exceeds performance, durability, and reliability standards to the OEM part.
Congrats on the TUV approval!!

All Wagner intercoolers are TUV approved.
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      12-14-2018, 02:29 PM   #172
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Seeking advice...

I have a 2018 N55 M2, 6mt, I just added a Fabspeed Sport Cat and will install a Dinan sport tune (the cheaper one that is essentially a boost controller) next week. I want to know whether an upgraded IC is a must, a good idea, or not needed.

I live in the Phoenix area where its 60 degrees or higher nearly everyday of the year with a good 4 months of that being 100+ daily. Stock, the car felt a little slower and ran out of breath at higher RPMs when temps were 100+. When the weather cooled down (to the 50's at night, 70's during day) the car started to feel faster, which makes me believe the heat played a material role in the car feeling slower. The car runs excellent with just the DP, I'm assuming it'll run ever harder with the dinan sport tuner, but at what point will I need an IC? Now, or will I only truly need it when the temps heat up?

I don't plan to go to a bigger turbo, and I'm not planning any other mods on top of the DP, tune, and IC. I read through this thread and several others but would still like to hear from those with more experience than me... What IC would be a good choice?

This VRSF HD for $341 appears to be the best deal out there right now:
https://x-ph.com/vr-speed-vrsf-f-cha...gh-density-hd/

Is this my best choice for the $$$? The next step up is the VRSF Race for $629, but is that overkill for my setup? I'm open to any brand and any seller.

Thanks!
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      12-14-2018, 02:31 PM   #173
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^Also, I would like something simple to install, the VRSF HD above is plug & play (I think) while the Race and other larger ICs require some cutting and maybe more.

Anyone install something like the VRSF HD themselves at home? Pretty simple?
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      12-14-2018, 02:32 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Blurbo311 View Post
Seeking advice...

I have a 2018 N55 M2, 6mt, I just added a Fabspeed Sport Cat and will install a Dinan sport tune (the cheaper one that is essentially a boost controller) next week. I want to know whether an upgraded IC is a must, a good idea, or not needed.

I live in the Phoenix area where its 60 degrees or higher nearly everyday of the year with a good 4 months of that being 100+ daily. Stock, the car felt a little slower and ran out of breath at higher RPMs when temps were 100+. When the weather cooled down (to the 50's at night, 70's during day) the car started to feel faster, which makes me believe the heat played a material role in the car feeling slower. The car runs excellent with just the DP, I'm assuming it'll run ever harder with the dinan sport tuner, but at what point will I need an IC? Now, or will I only truly need it when the temps heat up?

I don't plan to go to a bigger turbo, and I'm not planning any other mods on top of the DP, tune, and IC. I read through this thread and several others but would still like to hear from those with more experience than me... What IC would be a good choice?

This VRSF HD for $341 appears to be the best deal out there right now:
https://x-ph.com/vr-speed-vrsf-f-cha...gh-density-hd/

Is this my best choice for the $$$? The next step up is the VRSF Race for $629, but is that overkill for my setup? I'm open to any brand and any seller.

Thanks!
Hi,
An intercooler is a must for you.

If you are keeping the Dinan sport tune, the VRSF intercooler would be a good choice.

You can make a lot more power by getting a stage 2 tune like JB4, Bootmod3 or Active Autowerke flash. In this case you i recommend a stage 2 intercooler like VRSF Race, CSF or Wagner EVO II
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      12-14-2018, 02:32 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blurbo311 View Post
^Also, I would like something simple to install, the VRSF HD above is plug & play (I think) while the Race and other larger ICs require some cutting and maybe more.

Anyone install something like the VRSF HD themselves at home? Pretty simple?
All F chassis intercoolers are considered plug and play.
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      12-14-2018, 02:53 PM   #176
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