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      01-12-2018, 07:19 AM   #1
pit1
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Clutch Shutter

Looking for some insight from fellow owners on this one.

My M2 6sp has about 30k miles on it today. For the last 15k or so I've been battling what I think is a Transmission Shutter/Chatter. It's felt primarily in 1st gear, but when acting up is also noticeable in engaging second.

The sensation:
When engaging the 1st gear from a standstill, I'll get the clutch out just beyond the grab point and I feel a slight slip or Shutter just before the gear fully engages. The Shutter is felt mostly in my seat and left foot and results in a disrupted takeoff. At its worse, it will feel like a smooth engagement and then the car will "fall" into gear. This is also felt entering 2nd at times.

When:
The transmissions feels rock solid and smooth for the first 5 miles or so. If in stop and go traffic it will act up more quickly.
If driving aggressively it's not noticeable.
The worst occurrences have been after a bout of spirited driving, so I do believe it's heat related. At that point the Shutter was an audible vibration and clunk into gear.

Evaluation:
I've been complaining about this for some time, leaving my car with my service advisor and master tech over the weekend. They tell me it's all normal.

Background:
I'm no novice to manual transmissions. Mid-30s and I've only ever owned manual trans, primarily BMWs.

Anyone else feel this sensation?
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      01-12-2018, 11:01 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
Looking for some insight from fellow owners on this one.

My M2 6sp has about 30k miles on it today. For the last 15k or so I've been battling what I think is a Transmission Shutter/Chatter. It's felt primarily in 1st gear, but when acting up is also noticeable in engaging second.

The sensation:
When engaging the 1st gear from a standstill, I'll get the clutch out just beyond the grab point and I feel a slight slip or Shutter just before the gear fully engages. The Shutter is felt mostly in my seat and left foot and results in a disrupted takeoff. At its worse, it will feel like a smooth engagement and then the car will "fall" into gear. This is also felt entering 2nd at times.

When:
The transmissions feels rock solid and smooth for the first 5 miles or so. If in stop and go traffic it will act up more quickly.
If driving aggressively it's not noticeable.
The worst occurrences have been after a bout of spirited driving, so I do believe it's heat related. At that point the Shutter was an audible vibration and clunk into gear.

Evaluation:
I've been complaining about this for some time, leaving my car with my service advisor and master tech over the weekend. They tell me it's all normal.

Background:
I'm no novice to manual transmissions. Mid-30s and I've only ever owned manual trans, primarily BMWs.

Anyone else feel this sensation?
I feel it as well. Post warmup after I've driven hard. Feels like a lightweight flywheel and aggressive clutch engaging. I have no reason to think it's not normal but I certainly feel it!

I'm about to change out my transmission and diff fluid. Curious if it reduces flywheel chatter. I remember a few single mass N54 cars running a mixture that helped chatter, but I have no idea if it will affect engagement. It was redline mixed with a small amount of driveline shock treatment or an ATF mix. I'll dig it up again.
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      01-12-2018, 01:51 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashburyn54 View Post
I feel it as well. Post warmup after I've driven hard. Feels like a lightweight flywheel and aggressive clutch engaging. I have no reason to think it's not normal but I certainly feel it!

I'm about to change out my transmission and diff fluid. Curious if it reduces flywheel chatter. I remember a few single mass N54 cars running a mixture that helped chatter, but I have no idea if it will affect engagement. It was redline mixed with a small amount of driveline shock treatment or an ATF mix. I'll dig it up again.
i got it all the time when I rev it high on 1st gear. I usually only use 1st gear to start it rolling and let 2nd gear do all pulling. but occasionally, if I rev it pass 3500 rpm and upshift to 2nd, the shift is not smooth and there's all sorts of clunk and a clunk in the diff, too
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      01-12-2018, 07:52 PM   #4
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I get this in my F80. It does seem to be heat related. If I do a lot of stop and go seems like the clutch "over heats" and becomes rough when engaging 1st gear almost like it's about to stall.
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      01-13-2018, 11:18 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheerlx View Post
I get this in my F80. It does seem to be heat related. If I do a lot of stop and go seems like the clutch "over heats" and becomes rough when engaging 1st gear almost like it's about to stall.
20k on my 17. I have not experienced this. I'll keep you posted.
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      01-14-2018, 12:32 PM   #6
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I used to get this in my f30 335i. It bothered me. It also seemed more noticeable in traffic and warmer temps. I have 7500 miles on the M2 and haven't noticed it yet. I had the 335i evaluated and they said everything was normal. I had around 40-50k miles on it before it started. To me, and occasionally passengers, it did NOT feel normal. I'm also in my mid 30s and have had manual cars since age 16. I'm hoping it doesn't start in the M2, or at least not as bad as it was in my 335i. If it happens, I might be done with BMW manuals (Porsche here I come---although I guess the 7MT might have some of its own issues).
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      01-14-2018, 12:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheerlx View Post
I get this in my F80. It does seem to be heat related. If I do a lot of stop and go seems like the clutch "over heats" and becomes rough when engaging 1st gear almost like it's about to stall.
Yes that's exactly how it feels.
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      01-14-2018, 12:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2BSM17 View Post
I used to get this in my f30 335i. It bothered me. It also seemed more noticeable in traffic and warmer temps. I have 7500 miles on the M2 and haven't noticed it yet. I had the 335i evaluated and they said everything was normal. I had around 40-50k miles on it before it started. To me, and occasionally passengers, it did NOT feel normal. I'm also in my mid 30s and have had manual cars since age 16. I'm hoping it doesn't start in the M2, or at least not as bad as it was in my 335i. If it happens, I might be done with BMW manuals (Porsche here I come---although I guess the 7MT might have some of its own issues).
I'm with you. It ruins the car for me. I never want to drive an auto, but if this is normal for BMW than I'll find another brand. I have one more master tech from a local Indie shop take a look, the try some letters to BMW NA. IMO, not acceptable for a car of this caliber.
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      01-14-2018, 04:07 PM   #9
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I get this on my 235 and I've seen similar posts on the m3 forums. Like you said, it's most noticeable after some heat gets into the system. I think it's a combination of heat, mixing with the high friction clutch and the cdv as well.

I've found one solution that actually works for me and that is to change the driving modes. This leads me to believe it's mostly the cdv. Not really a big issue but a slight annoyance.
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      04-23-2018, 10:22 AM   #10
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UPDATE

Drove the car with sr Tech last week. He agreed the Shutter is exceptional, they are replacing the clutch body. I'll report back with updates once she's done.
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      04-23-2018, 02:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
UPDATE

Drove the car with sr Tech last week. He agreed the Shutter is exceptional, they are replacing the clutch body. I'll report back with updates once she's done.
Curious if the issue is actually your dual mass flywheel...
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      04-23-2018, 02:35 PM   #12
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Is it the same in DCT off mode?
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      04-23-2018, 02:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPurrs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
UPDATE

Drove the car with sr Tech last week. He agreed the Shutter is exceptional, they are replacing the clutch body. I'll report back with updates once she's done.
Curious if the issue is actually your dual mass flywheel...
Same suspicion. They felt the issue, that was battle #1. Should get it back tomorrow. I'll report once I get a chance for extended drive.
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      04-23-2018, 02:40 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdPedalAddict View Post
Is it the same in DCT off mode?
Once it acts up, it's consistent in all drive modes. Less noticeable in sport plus due to increased throttle sensitivity. Shutter is most apparent under conservative engagement.
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      04-23-2018, 03:07 PM   #15
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Yeah.. hot spots on the DMFwheel
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      04-23-2018, 05:05 PM   #16
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UPDATE

Turns out I had a triple-mass flywheel.

They found a piece of paper between the clutch and the flywheel, slightly charred and no longer legible. Likely a part ID sticker. Tough to say if it's related. Still replacing the clutch, so any correlation to improvement will be confounded. Kudos to the dealer for finding it, but disappointing quality control.
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      04-23-2018, 06:44 PM   #17
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weird!
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      04-23-2018, 06:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
UPDATE

Turns out I had a triple-mass flywheel.

They found a piece of paper between the clutch and the flywheel, slightly charred and no longer legible. Likely a part ID sticker. Tough to say if it's related. Still replacing the clutch, so any correlation to improvement will be confounded. Kudos to the dealer for finding it, but disappointing quality control.
Plot twist: new clutch has same loose sticker
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      08-28-2018, 07:24 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheerIx View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
UPDATE

Turns out I had a triple-mass flywheel.

They found a piece of paper between the clutch and the flywheel, slightly charred and no longer legible. Likely a part ID sticker. Tough to say if it's related. Still replacing the clutch, so any correlation to improvement will be confounded. Kudos to the dealer for finding it, but disappointing quality control.
Plot twist: new clutch has same loose sticker
I have had exactly the same problem, the dealer changed the gear box under warranty to my surprise but this made no difference. I took my car back to the dealer two weeks later who then said that it was a DMF issue.

I had a new clutch and DMF at just under 10k of which majority of the mileage was motorway so reduced gear changes, good new was that the new clutch and DMF cured the chatter.

One year and another 9k miles later and the chatter is returning, I am yet to take the car back to the dealer but when I do I expect them to say that it is my driving style that is causing the problems even though I have owned other BMW's and never had an issue in the past.
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      08-28-2018, 09:51 AM   #20
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Bmw could be using an aggressive clutch disc friction material thats causing some of the issues, chattering most of the time is caused by hot spots on the fly wheel /pressure plate surface . The hot spots can be caused by slipping the clutch using it to hold the car still on an incline , or just slipping the clutch ,some folks ride around with their foot on the clutch the slightest pressure on the pedal reduces the clamping force of the pressure plate letting the clutch slip you might not feel it but it is happening.Clutch slippage equals heat and wear which is transferred into the friction surfaces of the flywheel and pressure plate . I am not saying thats what you guys with issues are doing .The combination of materials and sizes that BMW is using in their clutch package could
cause the issues as well . Smaller flywheels for either packing issues or quicker accelerating engines less friction surface area needs a more aggressive friction material which most of the time means faster or more wear issues .
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      08-28-2018, 10:20 AM   #21
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I can't comment on the M2. Mine does not have this problem...yet. But DMF's can be problematic. They are really good at stopping noise and vibration from entering the vehicles interior. Having driven standard cars all my life I was surprised when the clutch on my MINI Cooper S was slipping at 8,000 miles. BMW Canada would initially not replace it under warranty but eventually folded after I pulled a few strings. At the time the head mechanic told me that just one heavy slip of the clutch was all it took with a DMF. After you had done that it was only a matter of time before the clutch would fail completely in a MINI. In my experience a regular clutches can take years of abuse where a DMF clutch is way more temperamental.
From the OP's description this sounds like what I have experienced. Because the clutch and flywheel have a "burn" mark on them they start to "chatter" slightly when hot. It would be interesting to have seen the clutch and flywheel that they took for the car. I really doubt that piece of paper would have caused the vibration but may have been enough to start another problem.
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      08-28-2018, 12:19 PM   #22
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I've owned many cars with manual clutches. Usually when they start chattering it's because the clutch plates get glazed. Once this happens the only way to cure the problem is to install new clutch plates. If the clutch slips then it is time to install pressure plates too.
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