[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by Steven1077

Well BMW are making it easy for people to forget about the M2, it no longer interests me, this is just an M235i with less options that handles better, I don't think it will be hard getting one as very few people will want one, anyone that wants a real M car won't even look at the M2, for the sake of an extra 8 inches in length you can get an M4 which will be a much better car, no doubt this is what BMW want but I'm sure they're happy to milk a little extra from the M4 parts making an M2

Bahahahhahahahahahahaha. Bahahahhahahahahahahaha.

I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing.

This is how I will deal with M235i/M135i owners deciding what a "real M car is" and what makes another M car with a different philosophy.... "better".

Hahahahahhahaahhahaahahbabababaahahha

[GoSlow2GoFast]

Originally Posted by chmura

Yesterdays M3 I meant was by the size. The M2 (comparing M235i) is identical to the size of the e46 M3. Comparing e46 M3 to today it was cheap and fun to drive!

Today's m3 has grown up in price and in size.

Not sure I can completely agree with that. I've had my E46 M3 now for over 11 years, bought it new in February 2004. At the time it stickered for $58,000 which I consider a bargain for the car it is, but to be fair wasn't exactly cheap in that timeframe. When I look at current M4, I built one online for either $72,000 or $74,000, can't recall, but I do remember thinking that to replace my E46 eleven years later and only see a $15,000 bump considering the technology, etc, wasn't that bad. Using online calculators, that's just about what the CPI increase says it should be. So to be fair I think BMW has done a decent job not inflating the price of the M3/M4.

That being said, the size is what got me interested in the M2. I like the size of the E46, it's a good fit for me and my needs, and don't want to go bigger. I also prefer the styling of the more sedan like rear window slope to the M4, and the M2 appeals that way, but I know that's a very personal preference.

I doubt that I will love an M2 the way I love my E46 M3, but I'm sure there are E30 owners out there that would say the same about my M3. But for me the E46 M3 was the right car, at the right size, at the right power (and I love the NA inline 6...) for the right price. I don't expect the M2 to measure up to that standard, and the M4 is too big for me, but I'm hoping that maybe over time the M2 can become a very fun and enjoyable drive, time will tell...

~gs2gf

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by GoSlow2GoFast

Not sure I can completely agree with that. I've had my E46 M3 now for over 11 years, bought it new in February 2004. At the time it stickered for $58,000 which I consider a bargain for the car it is, but to be fair wasn't exactly cheap in that timeframe. When I look at current M4, I built one online for either $72,000 or $74,000, can't recall, but I do remember thinking that to replace my E46 eleven years later and only see a $15,000 bump considering the technology, etc, wasn't that bad. Using online calculators, that's just about what the CPI increase says it should be. So to be fair I think BMW has done a decent job not inflating the price of the M3/M4.

That being said, the size is what got me interested in the M2. I like the size of the E46, it's a good fit for me and my needs, and don't want to go bigger. I also prefer the styling of the more sedan like rear window slope to the M4, and the M2 appeals that way, but I know that's a very personal preference.

I doubt that I will love an M2 the way I love my E46 M3, but I'm sure there are E30 owners out there that would say the same about my M3. But for me the E46 M3 was the right car, at the right size, at the right power (and I love the NA inline 6...) for the right price. I don't expect the M2 to measure up to that standard, and the M4 is too big for me, but I'm hoping that maybe over time the M2 can become a very fun and enjoyable drive, time will tell...

~gs2gf

if your E46 M3 is a daily driver... it won't take you long to forget it when you get an M2...

I owned an E30 M3 for 17 years... and I'm sorry.. but an E30 SLAYS the E46 M3 on curb weight, steering feel, handling feel, and everything that was " M" back in that day. The E46 M3 (as far as I was concerned.. was a big pig with a big motor).


my E30 M3 went to 8100 rpm... had a CF intake... For (17ish) YEARS I loved wringing every bit out of that naturally aspirated motor.

The 1M in comparison is not as high strung... but I realized that it really is somewhat tiring to take the car to 7500 rpm just to find power.. which is an exact characteristic of the S54. I imagine that if you purchase an M2.. then you.. like I did.. will quickly *revel* in the amount of TORQUE available... how the car will LEAP off the line... and squirt through traffic with little to no drama.. I will also warn you.... these turbo motors build power QUICKLY... QUIETLY.. and with overboost... you very likely will find you are a shooting around WAY faster just because it's literally effortless and no waiting for the motor to spool beyond 7K to really get going.

Same size chassis ... fits in the same garage space... and the weight is very similar to your E46 so there are no drawbacks there. My 1M even has 18" aftermarket wheels (Apex Arc-8) which can go on the E46 M3.

My ex owns an E46 convertible... each of the few times that I drove the car I was HAPPY to get back to being drunk with torque from the 1M. The S54 is fun past 6K... but the 1M the fun starts at 1500 rpm ... it just stops really abruptly at 7k.

the thing that solidified my 1M purchase was economics... I saw the 46K base price and realize it was WAY cheaper than the E46 M3 was when it came out (with a 51K base price IIRC) and had pretty much the same performance figures...

it's a shame that so many people " LOVE THE INLINE 6 ".... you folks should learn to love all BMW motors..
The motor and chassis is what makes every M car special... 4 cylinders... 6 cylinders... 8 cylinders... turbo or NA... any M motor is fantastic..

It's the " I GOTTA HAVE AN INLINE 6 " gang that killed the idea of a bespoke 4 cylinder variant in the M2 (S20,S48, S58)... and that in itself is a shame... because it was an E30 M3 with a 4 cylinder S14 that made the M3... the "M3".

[fuddman]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

It's the " I GOTTA HAVE AN INLINE 6 " gang that killed the idea of a bespoke 4 cylinder variant in the M2 .

I don't think that is the reason the M2 has a six instead of a four.
An inline 4 would have worked in the M2, and, in fact, I believe, was, at the outset, in the running to go into the car. The reason it lost the race was because BMW felt an M2 with a 4 cylinder engine would be perceived as an exclusive M car. BMW was afraid that such exclusivity would have drawn customers away from the M3/4. So, the 4 was put back on the shelf.
I think the 4 cylinder M cars are coming; but, I also think they'll probably first go to the upper tier M cars. Along with e drive and all that other sustainability stuff.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

My ex owns an E46 convertible... each of the few times that I drove the car I was HAPPY to get back to being drunk with torque from the 1M. The S54 is fun past 6K... but the 1M the fun starts at 1500 rpm ... it just stops really abruptly at 7k.

I think it's worse with the N55. My 335is with its N54 seemed to be able to hit higher revs without completely dying on me. The N55 gets above 6k, but as soon as you shift, you lose all power. I always have to watch to make sure I shift at the sweet spot. I hope they rework the N55 for better top end. Not the kind of top end you get with a NA engine, obviously, but just something that doesn't bog down the moment you even glance at redline.

[Hazey82]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

I think it's worse with the N55. My 335is with its N54 seemed to be able to hit higher revs without completely dying on me. The N55 gets above 6k, but as soon as you shift, you lose all power. I always have to watch to make sure I shift at the sweet spot. I hope they rework the N55 for better top end. Not the kind of top end you get with a NA engine, obviously, but just something that doesn't bog down the moment you even glance at redline.

Interesting. I've heard this as well. I hope they address this as well. I gather the S55 doesn't have this problem?? I need more seat time in one..

[SW19]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

if your E46 M3 is a daily driver... it won't take you long to forget it when you get an M2...

I owned an E30 M3 for 17 years... and I'm sorry.. but an E30 SLAYS the E46 M3 on curb weight, steering feel, handling feel, and everything that was " M" back in that day. The E46 M3 (as far as I was concerned.. was a big pig with a big motor).


my E30 M3 went to 8100 rpm... had a CF intake... For (17ish) YEARS I loved wringing every bit out of that naturally aspirated motor.

The 1M in comparison is not as high strung... but I realized that it really is somewhat tiring to take the car to 7500 rpm just to find power.. which is an exact characteristic of the S54. I imagine that if you purchase an M2.. then you.. like I did.. will quickly *revel* in the amount of TORQUE available... how the car will LEAP off the line... and squirt through traffic with little to no drama.. I will also warn you.... these turbo motors build power QUICKLY... QUIETLY.. and with overboost... you very likely will find you are a shooting around WAY faster just because it's literally effortless and no waiting for the motor to spool beyond 7K to really get going.

Same size chassis ... fits in the same garage space... and the weight is very similar to your E46 so there are no drawbacks there. My 1M even has 18" aftermarket wheels (Apex Arc-8) which can go on the E46 M3.

My ex owns an E46 convertible... each of the few times that I drove the car I was HAPPY to get back to being drunk with torque from the 1M. The S54 is fun past 6K... but the 1M the fun starts at 1500 rpm ... it just stops really abruptly at 7k.

the thing that solidified my 1M purchase was economics... I saw the 46K base price and realize it was WAY cheaper than the E46 M3 was when it came out (with a 51K base price IIRC) and had pretty much the same performance figures...

it's a shame that so many people " LOVE THE INLINE 6 ".... you folks should learn to love all BMW motors..
The motor and chassis is what makes every M car special... 4 cylinders... 6 cylinders... 8 cylinders... turbo or NA... any M motor is fantastic..

It's the " I GOTTA HAVE AN INLINE 6 " gang that killed the idea of a bespoke 4 cylinder variant in the M2 (S20,S48, S58)... and that in itself is a shame... because it was an E30 M3 with a 4 cylinder S14 that made the M3... the "M3".

It's amazing how someone can call an E46 M3 a pig compared to the M2 when the car hasn't even been released yet.Of course the E30 M3 was much more nimble,it was a much smaller car and don't count on the M2 being any lighter than the E46 M3.By the way I am buying an M2.One of the reasons why so many of us BMW fans love the inline 6 cylinder engine is because it is so smooth and responsive.It puts a smile on my face every time I drive my car.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Nantucket

It's amazing how someone can call an E46 M3 a pig compared to the M2 when the car hasn't even been released yet.Of course the E30 M3 was much more nimble,it was a much smaller car and don't count on the M2 being any lighter than the E46 M3.By the way I am buying an M2.One of the reasons why so many of us BMW fans love the inline 6 cylinder engine is because it is so smooth and responsive.It puts a smile on my face every time I drive my car.

Sorry to confuse.

My comment about the e46 M3 is my perspective in comparison to the e30m3

My overall comment between the m2, 1m, and e46m3 are all similar in size, weight and wheelbase. The 1m and M2 are essentially a reworked e46

There likely will never be a BMW as nimble and fun as e30 m3 again unless BMW does make an M2 CSL.

So.. Are you saying a BMW 4 cylinder or v8 isn't " smooth and responsive ? " :-) Thats news to me !!

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Keep in mind that the options list and the options packages will vary by country. U.K. Options for U.K and each of the three North American countries will likely differ from the European list in some way.

On the 1m heated seats were a $500 option in the U.S. And power seats were only available as part of a premium package. The premium package is often what separated " strippers " from the loaded cars as most hard core enthusiasts preferred the lower seating position available from the standard seats.

I am one of those that ordered the manual seats because the power seats were too high. It wasn't for the track because I don't track my car (are there any tracks in Northern Indiana?), it was because 2hen I sat in a 135i with power seats it felt like I was on top of the car.

I actually ordered the heated seats! LOL...remember, Northern Indiana...ha.

I just figured the power seats will be standard in the M2 because they are in the M235.

[SW19]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Sorry to confuse.

My comment about the e46 M3 is my perspective in comparison to the e30m3

My overall comment between the m2, 1m, and e46m3 are all similar in size, weight and wheelbase. The 1m and M2 are essentially a reworked e46

There likely will never be a BMW as nimble and fun as e30 m3 again unless BMW does make an M2 CSL.

So.. Are you saying a BMW 4 cylinder or v8 isn't " smooth and responsive ? " :-) Thats news to me !!

That was also my point,the cars are so different in size and weight that you can't compare the E30 M3 to the E46 M3.I agree there most likely will never be another BMW as light and nimble as the E30 M3.I had a 1998 M roadster which used the E30 chassis and that car was a blast to drive.I really do hope they get the weight lower than the E46 M3 for the M2.I have no doubt that BMW will deliver with a great drivers car for the M2 and I just prefer the BMW inline 6 cylinder engine.

[clubsport]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Good information. I don't really care about the options. I'm more concerned about when the car gets to NA markets and how difficult it will to buy one. I can probably be patient, but I truly dread the dealer "this is a limited car, please beg us to sell you one above MSRP" B.S. That will drive me to an F80, 997.2 GTS or other car.

I completely agree with you on the 997.2 GTS. Alcantara interior, hydraulic steering, only 20% more expensive than an M2 (DCT and Wheels) BEFORE MANDATORY DEALER GOUGING. 10% after it.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Hazey82

Interesting. I've heard this as well. I hope they address this as well. I gather the S55 doesn't have this problem?? I need more seat time in one..

The S55 pulls hard at the top, but like most turbocharged engines, there is a significant fall off in torque after the mid-range peak. You can see it on a dyno plot, and you can feel it when you drive the car. This statement is going to make a lot of people very angry, but look at any S55 dyno, and you can see that there is a +100 lb ft drop in torque between peak and redline. Physics, brah! You can't argue facts.

The problem is that in order to avoid this characteristic, you'd have to give up mid-range torque. For example, you could tune (by limiting mid-range boost) the S55 to produce a consistent 300 lb ft of torque from 2,500 RPM to the 7,500 RPM redline. This would eliminate the top end fall off, but the car wouldn't be as fast. Would you give up overall performance for sensation? Some would, but I don't see a line forming for that tune lol.

At the end of the day, the fall off in torque at the top RPM range is a trade off for much stronger overall performance. It's kind of the same argument that you see repeated over and over between big block guys and small block guys. For me, the S55 was so strong that the torque fall off didn't bother me. The engine provides a different sensation, but it's every bit as exciting as the S65 because of the sheer power delivered in the mid-range. It will literally scare you the first time you hit it hard and the tires break loose in third.

[W///]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

The S55 pulls hard at the top, but like most turbocharged engines, there is a significant fall off in torque after the mid-range peak. You can see it on a dyno plot, and you can feel it when you drive the car. This statement is going to make a lot of people very angry, but look at any S55 dyno, and you can see that there is a +100 lb ft drop in torque between peak and redline. Physics, brah! You can't argue facts.

The problem is that in order to avoid this characteristic, you'd have to give up mid-range torque. For example, you could tune (by limiting mid-range boost) the S55 to produce a consistent 300 lb ft of torque from 2,500 RPM to the 7,500 RPM redline. This would eliminate the top end fall off, but the car wouldn't be as fast. Would you give up overall performance for sensation? Some would, but I don't see a line forming for that tune lol.

At the end of the day, the fall off in torque at the top RPM range is a trade off for much stronger overall performance. It's kind of the same argument that you see repeated over and over between big block guys and small block guys. For me, the S55 was so strong that the torque fall off didn't bother me. The engine provides a different sensation, but it's every bit as exciting as the S65 because of the sheer power delivered in the mid-range. It will literally scare you the first time you hit it hard and the tires break loose in third.

I think a torque limiting tune (a la 488GTB) would be something I'd be interested in just so that the car feels a little more tamable if that makes sense. I also had DSC flashing at me while just merging on the highway in 3rd gear

These cars just have to be driven a little differently than the NA cars you and I have I guess. I will be the first to admit that this would be my first FI car. But I feel like by the time you redline these things on the street, you're already breaking the speed limit anyway. That's why I'm ok with the really beefy mid-range that these things will have.

[hyperzulu]

The issue isn't a general "forced induction - no way around it" because it goes beyond that. I had a 335is with its N54 engine and while the torque curve peaked at the mid range, it never fell completely flat. In my M235i, the car pulls, but the moment you shift up after nearing the rev limiter, you lose all boost it seems.

In the old engine, I could bounce the needle off the rev limiter, the car would up shift and continue on like nothing happened. In this one, you get the sensation of the car stalling. This would be pretty disheartening on the M2.

[LinkF1]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

The issue isn't a general "forced induction - no way around it" because it goes beyond that. I had a 335is with its N54 engine and while the torque curve peaked at the mid range, it never fell completely flat. In my M235i, the car pulls, but the moment you shift up after nearing the rev limiter, you lose all boost it seems.

In the old engine, I could bounce the needle off the rev limiter, the car would up shift and continue on like nothing happened. In this one, you get the sensation of the car stalling. This would be pretty disheartening on the M2.

I dont get that from my DCT 135 with the N55, but it may have something to do with the gearing, or the fact that the DCT shift doesn't provide as much opportunity for the loss of boost.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by LinkF1

I dont get that from my DCT 135 with the N55, but it may have something to do with the gearing, or the fact that the DCT shift doesn't provide as much opportunity for the loss of boost.

Interesting. My 335is had the same transmission as yours does. Different engine but same tranny I believe. Maybe it's the ZF8 that causes the issue.

[Artemis]

Ok BMW. Point taken. Funneling all the "What? No rectangular gas cap on the M2? Not interested anymore!" folks towards the M3/M4.

Mission accomplished.

[Bamowe]

I have to say that I hope that there will be much more guys who start to complain about the BMW M2 because than I know: Thats exactly the car I wanted!

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by W///

I think a torque limiting tune (a la 488GTB) would be something I'd be interested in just so that the car feels a little more tamable if that makes sense. I also had DSC flashing at me while just merging on the highway in 3rd gear

These cars just have to be driven a little differently than the NA cars you and I have I guess. I will be the first to admit that this would be my first FI car. But I feel like by the time you redline these things on the street, you're already breaking the speed limit anyway. That's why I'm ok with the really beefy mid-range that these things will have.

This isn't intended to point the finger in your direction, because this is really common, but the difficult part about discussions like these is that people tend to treat any acknowledgement that there are differences between the cars as a "bad thing™".

I went from a 135i (N55 powered) to an E92 M3, and have had the opportunity to spend some really quality seat time in an F80 M3 over the course of a few days up in the mountains. I keep droning on about it all over the forum, but I felt some profound differences between the cars. The key there is differences; not deficiencies.

IMO, an enthusiast is a person who not only has a keen eye for deficiencies, but looks hard for appreciable qualities as well. That's a big part of the reason that enthusiasts love the Miata; a car with many shortcomings, but lots to love as well. Same could be said of the E30!

The F80 M3 unquestionably delivers on performance, but the experience is very different. I found tons of things to like about the car, and the character of the S55's power deliver reminded me of my N55 powered 135i. There's so much twist available from 3,500 RPM to around 6,500 RPM that you end up feeling a lot less frantic when compared to the E92. Don't get me wrong, that's one of the aspects of the S65 that I love; especially coupled with the M-DCT transmission. You really feel like you're driving something race-oriented. The problem is that it wears on you.

After a couple of passes in my car, then swapping to the F80, I found myself taking the time to enjoy myself more. I felt less on edge, and more able to enjoy the G-forces of pressing it through the turns, and the massive acceleration on exit Two major factors contributed to that: 1) the S55 delivers strong twist any time you ask for it. It's really hard to find yourself in the wrong gear at the wrong time, and 2) the F80 chassis is so much more settled that you encounter far fewer "oh shit" moments when you catch a mid-corner bump in that slightly off-camber left-hander, which you didn't see coming, with nothing but cliffside to your right. There's a lot to appreciate, and I'm sure a lot of this will carry over to the M2.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

The issue isn't a general "forced induction - no way around it" because it goes beyond that. I had a 335is with its N54 engine and while the torque curve peaked at the mid range, it never fell completely flat. In my M235i, the car pulls, but the moment you shift up after nearing the rev limiter, you lose all boost it seems.

In the old engine, I could bounce the needle off the rev limiter, the car would up shift and continue on like nothing happened. In this one, you get the sensation of the car stalling. This would be pretty disheartening on the M2.

Strange, I thought the ZF8 + M235i did anti-lag upshifts (hence the burp sound), which would maintain boost. You shouldn't experience loss of boost with the DCT which is pretty much confirmed (from the option list) in the M2.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

The issue isn't a general "forced induction - no way around it" because it goes beyond that. I had a 335is with its N54 engine and while the torque curve peaked at the mid range, it never fell completely flat.

This isn't really a matter of absolutes. If you go from an N55 powered car to the S55, you're going to feel like the S55 pulls all the way to redline. However, if you go from an engine like the S65 to the S55, you're going to feel the difference. The S55 pulls way harder through the mid-range, but you can feel the torque drop off as you approach redline. The S65 feels completely flat throughout the RPM range, but doesn't pull nearly as hard.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Strange, I thought the ZF8 + M235i did anti-lag upshifts (hence the burp sound), which would maintain boost. You shouldn't experience loss of boost with the DCT which is pretty much confirmed (from the option list) in the M2.

It only happens when nearing the rev limiter. It has happened several times to me especially when doing a hard overtake. Maybe it is the transmission. Maybe engine management. All I know is that it is pretty frustrating.