[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by itto

The "Auto Zeitung " driver is the famous Horst von Saurma. the inventor of the "sport Auto" supertest. a legend in germany and on of the trigger for the car industrie to publish the nürburgring lap times.
since christian gebhart assumed its function he work for the auto zeitung.

Yeah famous Horst, but my guess is if successor Christian Gebhard is doing the same lap at Hockenheim Short for Sportauto carmag it even can be a tiny bit faster. Both are great drivers, Gebhard is just a little younger and also knows how to really drive a streetcar to the max at Hockenheim.

Let's wait and see.
Horst's time is alright, 1s faster with a modern setup PSS tyres DCT 30HP more on paper than the 'difficult' 1M equipped with 6MT and lousy PS2 tyres back in '11, so I'd expected this laptime or even better(?)....but only in my dreams for now


Cheers
Robin

[itto]

i think your dream come true
its a great and fast basis.

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Yeah famous Horst, but my guess is if successor Christian Gebhard is doing the same lap at Hockenheim Short for Sportauto carmag it even can be a tiny bit faster. Both are great drivers, Gebhard is just a little younger and also knows how to really drive a streetcar to the max at Hockenheim.

Let's wait and see.
Horst's time is alright, 1s faster with a modern setup PSS tyres DCT 30HP more on paper than the 'difficult' 1M equipped with 6MT and lousy PS2 tyres back in '11, so I'd expected this laptime or even better(?)....but only in my dreams for now


Cheers
Robin

[gthal]

The M2 is proving to be very fast at the track. Given it is essentially the same weight as the M4 and has notably less power, the fact that it is essentially running the same track times (at least on shorter tracks) speaks to the chassis and suspension set up being exceptionally well done by BMW. It basically, IMO, confirms why so many reviewers are gushing over it.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Yeah famous Horst, but my guess is if successor Christian Gebhard is doing the same lap at Hockenheim Short for Sportauto carmag it even can be a tiny bit faster. Both are great drivers, Gebhard is just a little younger and also knows how to really drive a streetcar to the max at Hockenheim.

Let's wait and see.
Horst's time is alright, 1s faster with a modern setup PSS tyres DCT 30HP more on paper than the 'difficult' 1M equipped with 6MT and lousy PS2 tyres back in '11, so I'd expected this laptime or even better(?)....but only in my dreams for now


Cheers
Robin

Wasn't the M2 something like 3 seconds faster when tested by Motor Trend than the 1M? Suffice to say, the M2 is definitely a faster car... yes, to the 1M fans that doesn't necessarily mean "better" but there is little doubt it is notably faster.

[Eddien123]

.3 seconds? That must sting

[Yellowflash21]

Originally Posted by itto

i think your dream come true
its a great and fast basis.

Hey bro! Welcome to the forum!

[Diver]

M2 is faster than its specs suggest.

[Lojs]

Originally Posted by BGR

Yes. Could have been presented better and with other cars.

Anyway, here is a snapshot of cars around that time and a link to the full list.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-short

With all due respect to the magazine and their now iconic series of tests... I am a bit confused, how one can make reasonable comparisons of cars on such a short course? Just look how you have so many (obviously very different) cars within a range of 0,5s. : I know many of you will jump on me know that 0,5 on such a short lap is tremendous. Yes, for a formula 1 team, that has professional drivers, professional measurement equipment and is driving 100-200 test laps for consistent testing results to confirm variance between different setups.
I am not questioning the performance of the M2, there are now enough press drives and various other reports to be sure it's a very potent car and has a bright future.
I am questioning the approach of having a (sometimes different) guy do a couple of laps in different cars on different days in different track conditions, and we jump to draw so so much conclusions from a delta of 0,3s or whatever it is. And what is worse compare it to the price tag delta. As if there should be some sort of ratio. The M4 in its turn beats so many cars that cost 2x or even 3x more. Is it now a better car than a SL65? Or an Aston Martin? You decide.

[cc3]

You need to be careful with improvements in tyre technology

[Nine Lives]

Originally Posted by Lojs

With all due respect to the magazine and their now iconic series of tests... I am a bit confused, how one can make reasonable comparisons of cars on such a short course? Just look how you have so many (obviously very different) cars within a range of 0,5s. : I know many of you will jump on me know that 0,5 on such a short lap is tremendous. Yes, for a formula 1 team, that has professional drivers, professional measurement equipment and is driving 100-200 test laps for consistent testing results to confirm variance between different setups.
I am not questioning the performance of the M2, there are now enough press drives and various other reports to be sure it's a very potent car and has a bright future.
I am questioning the approach of having a (sometimes different) guy do a couple of laps in different cars on different days in different track conditions, and we jump to draw so so much conclusions from a delta of 0,3s or whatever it is. And what is worse compare it to the price tag delta. As if there should be some sort of ratio. The M4 in its turn beats so many cars that cost 2x or even 3x more. Is it now a better car than a SL65? Or an Aston Martin? You decide.

This.
Take for example the TTRS time which I have experience with.A good car,but not a great one and this being .1 sec quicker with a chassis that is old hat by today's standards and with less power too...The press never raved about that like they have with the M2....Imo the Nordschleife times are more indicative of performance.

[raysspl]

I thought BMW stated the M2 DCT was going to be lighter than the M2 6-speed. Interesting.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by cc3

You need to be careful with improvements in tyre technology

The M4 and the M2 run the same tires.

Although I agree with your comment, there are clearly improvements in the car overall that far outweigh changes in tire alone.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by gthal

The M4 and the M2 run the same tires.

Although I agree with your comment, there are clearly improvements in the car overall that far outweigh changes in tire alone.

Minus 10mm of tread

[3s-a-charm]

Originally Posted by BGR

Yes. Could have been presented better and with other cars.

Anyway, here is a snapshot of cars around that time and a link to the full list.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-short

The way that reads to me is every one of those cars performs nearly identically on this track.

[Bosozoku]

Next step: test the same M2 with and without the M Performance suspension (at different heights and shock jounce / rebound settings.)

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by gthal

The M2 is proving to be very fast at the track. Given it is essentially the same weight as the M4 and has notably less power, the fact that it is essentially running the same track times (at least on shorter tracks) speaks to the chassis and suspension set up being exceptionally well done by BMW. It basically, IMO, confirms why so many reviewers are gushing over it.

Not a big surprise what more months of development will do, Since the two vehicles share the same suspension setup.

[ynotony]

Originally Posted by gthal

The M4 and the M2 run the same tires.

Although I agree with your comment, there are clearly improvements in the car overall that far outweigh changes in tire alone.

Yes but some of the other cars on this list are 10+ years old. Still, M2 is very quick. Faster than a last gen Carrera S is a good place to be.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Nine Lives

This.
Take for example the TTRS time which I have experience with.A good car,but not a great one and this being .1 sec quicker with a chassis that is old hat by today's standards and with less power too...The press never raved about that like they have with the M2....Imo the Nordschleife times are more indicative of performance.

Performance....you mean horsepower?
There has to be a balance in horsepower and balance/agility.

The Hockenheim Short track(2.65km) more shows the agility/ dynamics of the car or flaws thereof. You see some very powerful but bigger cars struggle to get faster or even equal laptimes than much 'slower' but more agile cars.

So I think it's great to show an 'agility' track AND the famous Nordschleife.

And it's not like it's not a real track or too short or some babything. On the contrary. It's a track which surfaces many flaws of 'sporty' cars(chassis, weight) immediately.




And look at this onboard video , DTM 1988,it's 80% that particular track.

And take a look at Niedzwiedz in the Cosworth.

Who now says Hockenheim Short is something we can miss in sportscartests did not understand it at all what sporty cars are about imho.

I've driven the same track over and over 1:1 @ Papenburg Mercedes Benz Teststrecke, they have a sibling(..) there, equally made, same tarmac, same banking/angles. Great. Next april 10th again. Yeah!

www.atp-papenburg.de


Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by 3s-a-charm

The way that reads to me is every one of those cars performs nearly identically on this track.

Yep. But for example some cars have 200 hp and some have 550hp...

So how could it be they have almost identical laptimes (1 or 2 secs on this shorter track still is some carlengths) Magic? Corruption?

Real racetracks look a lot more like Hockenheim Short than they look like the Nordschleife...

And the TTRS is just the most sporty Audi this side of an R8V10 plus. Easily. I never stated anyting else...




Cheers
Robin

[Nine Lives]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Performance....you mean horsepower?
There has to be a balance in horsepower and balance/agility.

The Hockenheim Short track(2.65km) more shows the agility/ dynamics of the car or flaws thereof. You see some very powerful but bigger cars struggle to get faster or even equal laptimes than much 'slower' but more agile cars.

So I think it's great to show an 'agility' track AND the famous Nordschleife.

And it's not like it's not a real track or too short or some babything. On the contrary. It's a track which surfaces many flaws of 'sporty' cars(chassis, weight) immediately.




And look at this onboard video , DTM 1988,it's 80% that particular track.

And take a look at Niedzwiedz in the Cosworth.

Who now says Hockenheim Short is something we can miss in sportscartests did not understand it at all what sporty cars are about imho.

I've driven the same track over and over 1:1 @ Papenburg Mercedes Benz Teststrecke, they have a sibling(..) there, equally made, same tarmac, same banking/angles. Great. Next april 10th again. Yeah!

www.atp-papenburg.de


Cheers
Robin

I get where you're coming from,but for the casual observer there's not enough differentiation to show up the differences ! It reads like every car performs the same (which we all know dont)
On such a small track I would have said the Caterham R 300 would have it easily.For example if you look at the EVO test track times there is a lot more variation.....

[eau_rouge]

The guys from evo magazine were not fully convinced on the M2. They just gave a 4,5 star rating, compared to a 5 star rating on the Golf R, Focus RS and so on. The RS3 has just 4 stars, but that is quite correct if you ask me. I think that BMW has nailed it with the M2 in this price range, but I dont think they went nuts with the development like the Ford Performance guys did with their new RS. There could have been more "independence" for the M2 in my mind. Speaking on engine components, drivetrain in general and overall appearance.

[Robin_NL]

I'm probably talking Arabic or Chinese because some don't get what I'm trying to explain. Hockenheim is a real and famous iconic racetrack. For decades and decades. That's why the german carmags use it. Its short but a serious challenge. It shows the m2 is up there with some more powerful cars. M135i 2013 did 1:15.3 if I'm not mistaken .

Anyway. Bmw is German , so is Hockenheim short. In continental Europe this laptime test started by Horst/ sportauto has been a reference point ever since( for me it's even more important than NS times) whatever others might say.

Cheers
Robin