[VCP]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

One interesting fact to note that 2 Canadians are (were) the head of design for major car companies: Ralph Giles for FCA and Karim Habib. Great feat for a country of only 35 million people ;-)

#1 M market per capita #1 individual colours and #1 Mperf parts as well

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

I, too, nominate Paul.

As for von Goertz, the 503 was the predecessor to the E9 (2800 CS and 3.0 CS). That was one beautiful car. My Father bought a 1970 2800 CSA and I liked it so much that two years later I bought a 3.0CS. Which I kept for 29 years. In perfect condition (for a driver).

As for the 507, I've told this sad story before. In 1974 the mechanics who ran Porsche-BMW Specialists, Inc. in Santa Monica (I was their lawyer) got a line on a 507 barn find. If I acted quickly enough I could snatch it up for $5,000. I wanted to do so but my girl friend wanted a new horse.

I was told that the 507 was bought by John M. Stiegler (owner of Auto Stiegler in Encino, CA), who got it running and then sold it for a big profit. I lost track of the car well before the damn horse died.

I too love the E9 especially the pre winged 3.0 CSL, or maybe the CSI as it has more comfort elements.

About the 507, What a miss for $25K of today's money!!! but then in 1972 a Ferrari 250 GTO was sold for $6000 (3589GT), which was in today's $ 34K, now they exchange hands in the $50 Million range!!!

Anyway, your i8 is pretty cool, and a ton of respect for your 3.0 CS!! ;-)

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by VCP

#1 M market per capita #1 individual colours and #1 Mperf parts as well

Wait Isn't it Australia?? I see many more BMW's and M's here than when I lived in Canada ;-)

[FogCityM3]

+1

Hard to say there are many visionaries left at the company, design wise, performance wise, and future technologies wise (way too late to game in e-vehicles). The departure of Bangle was the first signal that new ideas and experimentation were too "risky" (or potentially costly) for management to bear in the pursuit of easy cash-cow profits. This was followed by numerous departures/defections at key company positions (Biermann to Hyundai of all places, as mentioned below) and the almost complete loss of autonomy at the ///M division when it was formally consolidated into BMW GmBH. Capital and talent resources were massively diverted to the i-division only to produce poor price/value vehicles behind in e tech (any real response to Tesla delayed until 2021) and a management team (i-division) that got lifted out to work for a Chinese startup.

Sadly the most praiseworthy performance car in years (the M2) was essentially derived by going back 10-15+ years to the basic formula of what it means to drive a fun BMW. Really the only new innovation in that car is an e-diff, whereas the rest was easily gleaned from replicating pre-2008 successes.

Originally Posted by c63er

Wow. Can't say I am shocked.

Reading Scott's hardcore right winger / afd type posts as of late it seems the culture at bmw might be a hostile one to someone with his last name.

Pure conjecture but wouldn't be surprised if he was either pushed out for that reason or left of his own accord because of something like that. If it is true then the bmw m2 designer is on his way out next.

Bmws of late, while conservative are some of its best designs yet and their major saving grace (in the face of large cars with numb steering). I'm a little worried that their designs are now going to go south the same as every other aspect of the cars that were "bmw". Every other aspect of bmw seems to be Toyota now, so I'm guessing we are going to get more Toyota like styling now?

He saved mercedes design for a while (especially with the compact sports coupe) and if he goes back that would be bad for us (since they are currently in the pits with the e class vs 5 series).

We lost Bierman (who's blood pumped ///m) and got a downgrade with van meel (awd and electric ///m). Question is who is our downgrade in design going to be now ?

[VCP]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

Wait Isn't it Australia?? I see many more BMW's and M's here than when I lived in Canada ;-)

Your eyes deceive you

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

+1

Hard to say there are many visionaries left at the company, design wise, performance wise, and future technologies wise (way too late to game in e-vehicles). The departure of Bangle was the first signal that new ideas and experimentation were too "risky" (or potentially costly) for management to bear in the pursuit of easy cash-cow profits. This was followed by numerous departures/defections at key company positions (Biermann to Hyundai of all places, as mentioned below) and the almost complete loss of autonomy at the ///M division when it was formally consolidated into BMW GmBH. Capital and talent resources were massively diverted to the i-division only to produce poor price/value vehicles behind in e tech (any real response to Tesla delayed until 2021) and a management team (i-division) that got lifted out to work for a Chinese startup.

Sadly the most praiseworthy performance car in years (the M2) was essentially derived by going back 10-15+ years to the basic formula of what it means to drive a fun BMW. Really the only new innovation in that car is an e-diff, whereas the rest was easily gleaned from replicating pre-2008 successes.

I think you pointed at something very important there. When they created the i division, they got it right as Tesla has shown people would buy the right electric car (with proper recharging network). Instead they got cold feet and had their engineers poached by start ups. For me the right thing to do is to put massive investment again in i for an electric vehicle (electric i SUV) and get back to the "driver's car" ethos for the mainline BMW's, and please no more GT's, Active Tourers atrocities. Then you would target to 2 enthusiastic audiences that complement each other. BMW should also get over the disease of trying to copy Audi and Mercedes but thrive on their own brand DNA which is build on responsive cars made for driving enthusiasts. Sure they need to have all the technology wanted by today's consumers, but the foremost emphasis should be put on the driving experience. That's my 2 cents anyway...

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

MalibuBimmer : this one is the 507 you really missed: The Elvis one, now in the hands of BMW Classic. Who knows how much it would be worth in the open market. I'd say $10 Million with the Elvis provenance...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...y-Germany.html

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by VCP

Your eyes deceive you

Not my butt: it's summer almost all year round here ;-). Are you still in the minuses with a showel in your hands to remove the snow??

[VCP]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

Not my butt: it's summer almost all year round here ;-). Are you still in the minuses with a showel in your hands to remove the snow??

Victoria BC my man! Buckets of rain, no white stuff . GTS weather year round! Seriously though my information is accurate. You look into it and confirm with me

[borys]

hmmmm both BMW and Mercedes followed Audi by making whole line up "same" looking. Could he be the reason?
Waiting for a better looking 5 series, even though I loved e60 and F10!

[doccyber]

Well I believe the cars designed by Van Hooydonk were some of the ugliest BMW designs ever. The recent designs were much better. Personally I'd like a throw back design with modern lines similar to the 2002 or even the e39 5er for the sedans.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by VCP

Victoria BC my man! Buckets of rain, no white stuff . GTS weather year round! Seriously though my information is accurate. You look into it and confirm with me

You must be enjoying easy power drifting in all this rain . Seriously the GTS must be a handful in the wet! About the numbers, I'll try to dig some from the land down under... Cheers!

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by VCP

Seriously though my information is accurate. You look into it and confirm with me

OK, I have some numbers, unfortunately not a full year for 2016 for M cars, but as of end of September 2016, there were 1113 units of M Cars (M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, X5 M and X6 M) sold, or 4.9% of 22,547 BMW's sold until then. Of this total there were 673 M performance cars, so if you add M Performance + M, you have 1,786 units, or 7.9%. The best selling M car is the M3, followed by the M2.

Total sales for 2016 is 28,028 units (+12.0% VS 2015). BMW ranks 12th, way below MB with 41,226 units (+13.3%)

What are the stats for Canada?

[Itgb]

I guess I'm getting old but none of the more recent models do much for me at all. None of them are classy and timeless, but appear more trendy with boomerang vents, headlights blending into the grille, and iPhone screens sticking up out of the dash.

Besides the E92, I can't think of a single BMW in the last 10 years that I think will age well. I'm not an SUV guy but I thought the proportions of the 2nd gen X5 were just right; the new one not so much. I tried to like the F30, but I just can't do it. The 1M was not pretty and I don't think the M2 was much better with its undefined fender flares, overly busy front bumper and ugly vertical reflectors in the rear bumper. I prefer the M235/240i over the M2. The A7/S7 looks better than the 6 series GC. The pinnacle of the 5 series was the E39, and things have gone down hill ever since.

I really hope future designs will stand the test of time like the E46 M3 which still looks sporty and classy at the same time.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Zirenz2006

Yeah and I've seen how his design language including on the E65 7 was copied by multiple other brands...his influence is noticeable

Yes, and I think that under his supervision also the x5 was launched and that immediately became the benchmark for the luxurious monocoque SUV with decent road manners. And he launched the z4 (although I heard a story that it was Van Hooijdonk who did most of the designing on that.

The point is that no one man within a car makers design department is the one person who did this or that. It's always a team efford, working under the pressure of management and stockholders.


But Bangle already had quite a reputable reputation before he came to BMW. He did the design on the fiat coupe. None of you Yanks probably have ever seen that IRL but it's considered a design icon in its class, often called the baby ferrari.
Its one of the first 'new edge' cars imho (or what can be somewhat considered as one) introduced about 7 years before that design style became mainstream, even before ford made its concept f90, and later introducing cars like the focus etc, and so many other brands adapting that view (including bmw). Usually new edge is associated with ford, but the fiat coupe may be one of the initiators....

I usually see design at bmw in waves of 2 generations, where the first is quite a revolutionairy design and the second one an evolution on the previous design. Like the e21 was quite the revolution on the 1500 (neue klasse) and the e30 was an evolution on that. Where the e36 was quite the revolution on the e30 and the e46 was the evolution of the e35. And the e90 was the revolution on the e46 and the f30 again an evolution. But who knows if they will continue this alternation of revolution and evolution....

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

but for the inelegant hood line on the 3 series..

That is one of my BIG problems with the new BMW models. Because of the hood line, headlamps that extend to a such level that look stretched and out of place, exhaust that hang out behind the car like an afterthought (when Kia makes them better!) and pipes that are going back to 80's, big out of place nostrils, ipads glued on the dash board, central consoles that lost the "pilot cockpit" appeal, are just few things that do not deserve my money...
I wanted bad to convince myself to order a new M and every time when I went there, I got back with same conclusion : nope, I can't live with it.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Yes, and I think that under his supervision also the x5 was launched and that immediately became the benchmark for the luxurious monocoque SUV with decent road manners. And he launched the z4 (although I heard a story that it was Van Hooijdonk who did most of the designing on that.

The point is that no one man within a car makers design department is the one person who did this or that. It's always a team efford, working under the pressure of management and stockholders.


But Bangle already had quite a reputable reputation before he came to BMW. He did the design on the fiat coupe. None of you Yanks probably have ever seen that IRL but it's considered a design icon in its class, often called the baby ferrari.
Its one of the first 'new edge' cars imho (or what can be somewhat considered as one) introduced about 7 years before that design style became mainstream, even before ford made its concept f90, and later introducing cars like the focus etc, and so many other brands adapting that view (including bmw). Usually new edge is associated with ford, but the fiat coupe may be one of the initiators....

I usually see design at bmw in waves of 2 generations, where the first is quite a revolutionairy design and the second one an evolution on the previous design. Like the e21 was quite the revolution on the 1500 (neue klasse) and the e30 was an evolution on that. Where the e36 was quite the revolution on the e30 and the e46 was the evolution of the e35. And the e90 was the revolution on the e46 and the f30 again an evolution. But who knows if they will continue this alternation of revolution and evolution....

Chris Bangle influence is undeniable on car designers as stated before, but one question the consumer must ask: is it a good influence? There are not too many car designers around the world and lots of them seem to share the same design language and Chris Bangle design seems to have influence lots of such designers with car surface treatments becoming more and more complex, in my opinion for the worst. One good example in the premium car business. Audi has started from almost nothing to monumental success and one can argue that their simple, yet elegant design language is a big part of their succesS.

Maybe the design world needs to follow what is happening in lifestyle: people going retro and re-discovering simplicity...

About your revolution/evolution theory about BMW designs, I think it's just a coincidence and design revolution are part of a bigger trend in a company that for that instance tries to reinvent itself...

Cheers!

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

About your revolution/evolution theory about BMW designs, I think it's just a coincidence and design revolution are part of a bigger trend in a company that for that instance tries to reinvent itself...

Cheers!

It may be a coincidence, but it has been happening for over 4 decades now
But it is indeed also somewhat coupled to technological innovation.
You know, e21/e30=trailing arm rear suspension, e36/46=3 point multilink rear suspension, e90/f30= 5point multilink rear/tension strut front suspension.
So the platforms in pairs of 2 are both linked on a design basis and on a technological basis. Its mostly the tech part that I find loads of similarities in pairs, where the latter one is an evolution, Just like its exterior/interior designs .

I hope people dont go retro... retro styling has been a major trend since the PT cruiser I guess. It has given some very ugly models and some very nice cars (ford gt), but going retro is a bit lazy and uninspiring from a designers pov imho, making a variation on what has been.... It would probably be a big succes among Hipsters...

From that pov I think audi's are also uninspiring. shaving off all the details, so that there is nothing left which can annoy people. But that means that there's also nothing left to like...
In that scope I much more prefer the new alfa Giulia compared to lets say an audi a4.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

Sorry, He can't hold a candle to Paul Bracq: http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1339590. Legendary means he created a design language. Karim Habib has done no such things. Even his concept cars were not that impressive...

By the way the 2, 3, 4 series was designed by Christopher Weil, 6 Series by Nader Faghihzadeh.

I love Paul-Bracq's designs. They can BOTH be great designers. And they are.

Thanks for the Paul-Bracq thread. What a legacy!!!

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

The general concept yes, but the design team has to come up with the reality ie shape ;-)

IMO it's fairly hard to design a nice looking GT or the X4/X6.

I think we can all agree that customer desires and good design don't always match up. If customers want a pig it's still a pig no matter how much lipstick you use.

[Bamaben]

Originally Posted by c63er

Not sure but is the x5 in the list ? If he did have a hand in that one I can't be the only person who thinks the current x5 is the best looking suv in bmw suv history and very close runner up to the Range Rover

I prefer the 2nd gen e70 X5 design over the newest model, which looks like previous gen X3 which isn't near as muscular as e70. Why they trickled the design up models rather than down is backwards.

[VCP]

OK now I have my shovel out and I am digging Talk soon

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

OK, I have some numbers, unfortunately not a full year for 2016 for M cars, but as of end of September 2016, there were 1113 units of M Cars (M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, X5 M and X6 M) sold, or 4.9% of 22,547 BMW's sold until then. Of this total there were 673 M performance cars, so if you add M Performance + M, you have 1,786 units, or 7.9%. The best selling M car is the M3, followed by the M2.

Total sales for 2016 is 28,028 units (+12.0% VS 2015). BMW ranks 12th, way below MB with 41,226 units (+13.3%)

What are the stats for Canada?