[ZM2]

First session: https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e7625ed10b4303a95c0ae6

Ambient not too hot and a wet track, so about 5sec off pace. But, check out how much closer together oil & coolant temps are vs my other track logs.

Open track day and it’ll dry out, so more to come.

[ZM2]

Second session: https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e7740bd10b430714656de8

Dry session with new PB at NJMP Thunderbolt (1:29.4). Ambient still not too hot, check out how close oil & coolant temps are together. Have never seen that before, oil usually skyrockets and then coolant.

Coolant still getting above 250F tho, and power was being pulled. The car didn’t go into meltdown tho and cooled off quickly. Altho, prob still need more coolant temp reduction for hot track days.

Overall, much better, tho.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Second session: https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e7740bd10b430714656de8

Dry session with new PB at NJMP Thunderbolt (1:29.4). Ambient still not too hot, check out how close oil & coolant temps are together. Have never seen that before, oil usually skyrockets and then coolant.

Coolant still getting above 250F tho, and power was being pulled. The car didn’t go into meltdown tho and cooled off quickly. Altho, prob still need more coolant temp reduction for hot track days.

Overall, much better, tho.

WOW - this is an improvement:

NJMP Log
Stg 2+ MM v1.0, do88 radiator, 50/50 mix
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6386...0b43af6b73a3a3

Ambient
48F vs 75-77F

Coolant
233F vs 251F

Oil
251F vs 253F

Maximum Speed
135mph vs 141mph

[ZM2]

Third session: https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e77f05c090c66295afc088

A short one, higher ambient, coolant still getting too high, but as least the oil temps are staying in check and keeping coolant temps from running away.

[AmuroRay]

100% water? And I really think you should consider deleting the Coolant/Oil heat exchanger.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

100% water? And I really think you should consider deleting the Coolant/Oil heat exchanger.

100% water w wetter.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Third session: https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e77f05c090c66295afc088

A short one, higher ambient, coolant still getting too high, but as least the oil temps are staying in check and keeping coolant temps from running away.

Coolant and oil are now probably both running open, so they are going to heat up and cool down near the same rate since they continually running through the coolers and eachother.

What's the acceptable cold weather range for your oil?

[ZM2]

Last two logs confirming similar behavior:

https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e79931d10b430714658c01
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e7c187c090c66632f032b3

Overall, best track day I’ve had in a while. More 1:29s with non-traffic optimal of 1:28s. That’s fast for a M2 on Thunderbolt! The guys in ZL1’s and Z06’s were shocked I was passing them. Altho, my added power without overheating and my knowledge of that track helped a decent bit. Those cars should be faster.

Still would like to determine best option to get coolant temps down. Still in my head that a shorter IC and more clean air to the radiator would help.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Last two logs confirming similar behavior:

https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e79931d10b430714658c01
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e7c187c090c66632f032b3

Overall, best track day I’ve had in a while. More 1:29s with non-traffic optimal of 1:28s. That’s fast for a M2 on Thunderbolt! The guys in ZL1’s and Z06’s were shocked I was passing them. Altho, my added power without overheating and my knowledge of that track helped a decent bit. Those cars should be faster.

Still would like to determine best option to get coolant temps down. Still in my head that a shorter IC and more clean air to the radiator would help.

Water injection should help cool iats and in turn combustion chamber temps too. This should net lower overall oil and coolant temps.

[AmuroRay]

I’m wondering if that thermostat delete has the oil running through the coolant exchanger more often than it otherwise would have?

[AmuroRay]

I did some reading - I don't think that heat exhanger is really needed unless you're in absolute fridgid temps. I think 0w and 5w oils will still flow and protect even as low as 0F

edycol

[ZM2]

Part of me wonders if the exchanger is removed, would coolant temps stay lower for a bit but then actually go higher than oil temps bc there’s no exchanger in place to balance thermal load.

At this point I don’t think we know if coolant temps are going too high bc there’s not enough coolant loop capacity/airflow, or if it’s bc oil temps routinely go higher than 240F and the exchanger is dragging coolant temps up.

That said, here’s two examples of previous track logs when I was running the CSF radiator and oil cooler, one with ambient similar to yesterday’s track day and another from last summer with higher ambient, oil, and coolant temps. You’ll note that oil and coolant temps are clearly not connected as they are now, showing a big improvement bn the CSF and do88 oil coolers.

https://bootmod3.net/log?id=63553febae729b63d8d8bc16

https://bootmod3.net/log?id=62f00755c090c6b3130e6c5d

Altho, my interpretation bn these logs and my logs from yesterday is that we now have enough oil cooling capacity on the car, so much so that it’s also absorbing heat from the coolant loop as coolant temps get up to 250F and not allowing them to go higher, compared to when I used to see both oil & coolant temps go >270F & >255F with the CSF hardware.

I think if we remove the exchanger, peak oil temps would stay the same or come down a little, and peak coolant temps would go up.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Part of me wonders if the exchanger is removed, would coolant temps stay lower for a bit but then actually go higher than oil temps bc there’s no exchanger in place to balance thermal load.

At this point I don’t think we know if coolant temps are going too high bc there’s not enough coolant loop capacity/airflow, or if it’s bc oil temps routinely go higher than 240F and the exchanger is dragging coolant temps up.

That said, here’s two examples of previous track logs when I was running the CSF radiator and oil cooler, one with ambient similar to yesterday’s track day and another from last summer with higher ambient, oil, and coolant temps. You’ll note that oil and coolant temps are clearly not connected as they are now, showing a big improvement bn the CSF and do88 oil coolers.

https://bootmod3.net/log?id=63553febae729b63d8d8bc16

https://bootmod3.net/log?id=62f00755c090c6b3130e6c5d

Altho, my interpretation bn these logs and my logs from yesterday is that we now have enough oil cooling capacity on the car, so much so that it’s also absorbing heat from the coolant loop as coolant temps get up to 250F and not allowing them to go higher, compared to when I used to see both oil & coolant temps go >270F & >255F with the CSF hardware.

I think if we remove the exchanger, peak oil temps would stay the same or come down a little, and peak coolant temps would go up.

I would think the heat exchanger cannibalizes coolant temps to keep oil temps down. Because hear always flows from high to low, so from the hotter oil to the cooler coolant. This means the coolant is keeping the oil cool not the other way around. So if you delete the heat exchanger there's no way the coolant temps would go up from that.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by F87source

I would think the heat exchanger cannibalizes coolant temps to keep oil temps down. Because hear always flows from high to low, so from the hotter oil to the cooler coolant. This means the coolant is keeping the oil cool not the other way around. So if you delete the heat exchanger there's no way the coolant temps would go up from that.

IDK, take a look at the coolant and oil trends in the logs from last year vs yesterday’s. I think you’ll piece together what I’m saying.

Logs from last year (CSF)
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=63553febae729b63d8d8bc16

https://bootmod3.net/log?id=62f00755c090c6b3130e6c5d

Log from yesterday (do88)
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e7c187c090c66632f032b3

What I’m also seeing is how much more spikey coolant temps are now vs oil. When I’m back on the gas, coolant temps jump 20F and hit power pulling levels while oil only moves 5-10F and is comfortable at 250F.

That tells me there’s not enough coolant system capacity or airflow, and the exchanger is stopping coolant temps from running away even worse like they used to, before the recent oil cooling system improvements.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I did some reading - I don't think that heat exhanger is really needed unless you're in absolute fridgid temps. I think 0w and 5w oils will still flow and protect even as low as 0F

edycol

No, the heat exchanger is not necessary at all. The heat exchanger's primary function is to warm up oil as fast as possible, and the secondary is to try to keep the oil temperature down. I did not read the whole thread, but the coolant through the exchanger is taking some heat. Exchanger is very useful for normal street cars as it improves mpg, and gets oil up to operating temperature faster.
It is a liability in this case too. There is too much heat here. Gaskets will fail, mix oil and coolant etc.
I do not know what modifications were done on cooling system, but the coolant temperature is too high.

As for protection you mentioned, 0W and 5W do not have anything with exchangers. That si cold start. 5W will do good until -30f, I started X5 35d at -42f having Valvoline 5W40 in the engine. 0W is obviously better choice in those temperatures. Protection depends on HTHS.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ZM2

IDK, take a look at the coolant and oil trends in the logs from last year vs yesterday’s. I think you’ll piece together what I’m saying.

Logs from last year (CSF)
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=63553febae729b63d8d8bc16

https://bootmod3.net/log?id=62f00755c090c6b3130e6c5d

Log from yesterday (do88)
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=64e7c187c090c66632f032b3

What I’m also seeing is how much more spikey coolant temps are now vs oil. When I’m back on the gas, coolant temps jump 20F and hit power pulling levels while oil only moves 5-10F and is comfortable at 250F.

That tells me there’s not enough coolant system capacity or airflow, and the exchanger is stopping coolant temps from running away even worse like they used to, before the recent oil cooling system improvements.

What modifications you did to coolant system?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by edycol

What modifications you did to coolant system?

Current setup and cooling mods:

Power - 470whp
BM3 Stg 2++ Multimap with E50
TTE460 turbo
Dorch Stg 1 HPFP
Turbosmart plumb back BOV
HJS 300-cell downpipe
Akrapovic Exhaust
MST v2 inlet
3.5-bar TMAP
Stock airbox & filter

Cooling
do88 radiator
do88 aux radiator
do88 oil cooler
BMS oil cooler valve
Stock DCT cooler with larger M2 CSR DCT oil pan
Evo3 IC
Suvneer GTS vented hood
BM3 MaxCool setting
E39 in line additional coolant pump (with F87source help)
E50 fuel
10w-40 300V (new formulation)
100% water + wetter in the summer

Good to hear the exchanger isn’t needed, but I still think you all are thinking too much about what the exchanger does on the street vs what is happening in my logs on track at peak temps.

No doubt the coolant is following oil temps as it warms up, and could be lower in the beginning of the stint without the exchanger. But seeing how quick coolant temps jump under WOT tells me the extra headroom from the lower coolant starting temps might get you an extra lap?

I’m more concerned about peak temp management, and now that oil temps are in check it’s clear to me in the latest do88 logs vs last year with CSF coolers that the cooling bottleneck is on the coolant side and the exchanger is actually helping keep coolant temps from rising above 250F by letting the oil side absorb excess heat from the coolant.

I need you guys to read thru my comments above and review the logs in detail and throw out the traditional thoughts about what the exchanger does during warm up, and instead focus on peak temp dynamics and management, so we can all decide if the coolant system efficiency (capacity & airflow) or the exchanger is more of the issue.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Do88 main & aux radiators, 100% water with wetter. Do88 oil cooler and BMS valve. 10w-40 300v (new formulation) with E40-50 fuel.

Good to hear the exchanger isn’t needed, but I still think you all are thinking too much about what the exchanger does on the street vs what is happening in my logs on track at peak temps.

No doubt the coolant is following oil temps as it warms up, and could be lower in the beginning of the stint without the exchanger. But seeing how quick coolant temps jump under WOT tells me the extra headroom from the lower coolant starting temps might get you an extra lap?

I’m more concerned about peak temp management, and now that oil temps are in check it’s clear to me in the latest do88 logs vs last year with CSF coolers that the cooling bottleneck is on the coolant side and the exchanger is actually helping keep coolant temps from rising above 250F by letting the oil side absorb excess heat from the coolant.

I need you guys to read thru my comments above and review the logs in detail and throw out the traditional thoughts about what the exchanger does during warm up, and instead focus on peak temp dynamics and management, so we can all decide if the coolant system efficiency (capacity & airflow) or the exchanger is more of the issue.

I will review rest when find dome time.
But, oil doesn’t dissipate heat as fast as water. So, effects of cooler oil is questionable in heat exchanger. You could run open system or lower temperature thermostat. But, that is band aid. The cooling system is not appropriate for heat your engine makes.
By how much those coolers increased capacity of coolant?

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by edycol

I will review rest when find dome time.
But, oil doesn’t dissipate heat as fast as water. So, effects of cooler oil is questionable in heat exchanger. You could run open system or lower temperature thermostat. But, that is band aid. The cooling system is not appropriate for heat your engine makes.
By how much those coolers increased capacity of coolant?

Not a lot bc the OG M2 is very limited on room up front. This is the best that can be done for a daily driving track car:

https://www.do88performance.com/en/a...-aluminum.html
https://www.do88performance.com/en/a...-aluminum.html

So, if we can’t increase capacity, that pretty much leaves:

-Removing the exchanger (if it’ll actually help and not hurt peak coolant temps)
-Improving airflow to the radiator with a shorter & less thick IC
-Water injection to lower combustion & engine temps

Seems like a roll of the dice at this point to know which will help the most.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Not a lot bc the OG M2 is very limited on room up front. This is the best that can be done for a daily driving track car:

https://www.do88performance.com/en/a...-aluminum.html
https://www.do88performance.com/en/a...-aluminum.html

So, if we can’t increase capacity, that pretty much leaves:

-Removing the exchanger (if it’ll actually help and not hurt peak coolant temps)
-Improving airflow to the radiator with a shorter & less thick IC
-Water injection to lower combustion & engine temps

Seems like a roll of the dice at this point to know which will help the most.

Yes. You will have to roll a dice. Is cowling removed?

[ThreeStripes]

Originally Posted by ZM2

that pretty much leaves:

-Removing the exchanger (if it’ll actually help and not hurt peak coolant temps)
-Improving airflow to the radiator with a shorter & less thick IC
-Water injection to lower combustion & engine temps

Seems like a roll of the dice at this point to know which will help the most.

- coating downpipe and manifold
- turbo blanket
- maybe insulating the coolant line on the hot side of the block??

[F87source]

Originally Posted by edycol

No, the heat exchanger is not necessary at all. The heat exchanger's primary function is to warm up oil as fast as possible, and the secondary is to try to keep the oil temperature down. I did not read the whole thread, but the coolant through the exchanger is taking some heat. Exchanger is very useful for normal street cars as it improves mpg, and gets oil up to operating temperature faster.
It is a liability in this case too. There is too much heat here. Gaskets will fail, mix oil and coolant etc.
I do not know what modifications were done on cooling system, but the coolant temperature is too high.

As for protection you mentioned, 0W and 5W do not have anything with exchangers. That si cold start. 5W will do good until -30f, I started X5 35d at -42f having Valvoline 5W40 in the engine. 0W is obviously better choice in those temperatures. Protection depends on HTHS.

The F series n55 heat exchanger doesn't have internal seals, that's the E series cars with the heat exchanger on the oil filter housing.