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      01-30-2017, 01:59 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr 2 View Post
How come so many reviews have the M2 on a track and reviewers rave about the brakes. Would it be worth it to get the $600 ultimate care and burn the stock pads and rotors up on tracks?
Unfortunately, 95% of reviewers are simply entertainers and have no idea how to drive quickly. And even those that do, they are only putting a few laps at a time on a car. It takes me probably 15-20min before I get brake fade with Pagid pads on the M2, it doesn't happen immediately. The brakes FEEL good, but the reviewers generally don't get enough track time to really push the chassis and discover issues.
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      01-30-2017, 03:37 PM   #24
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Wow, that worries me a little. I've autocrossed a Evo for years and wanted to upgrade to the M2 thinking it would be a good "out of the box" track car. I want to get into some occasional track day. I want to leave the car stock, no mods.

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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Review cars are prepped with " M performance pads" , available at additional cost from your dealer. At the very least you should instead put your $600 towards those. The stock rotors are ok.


While still appropriate for a novice level driver ,
The stock M2 is the first BMW that I have ever known to be unsuitable for intermediate level HPDE drivers right out of the box. Track pads are essential.

If you plan to run more than two track weekends a year, you will find that camber plates are a "necessory..." as you will absolutely murder the outside edge of whatever sacrificial tire you run... particularly if running the stock front wheel and tire setup which are narrower up front.
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      01-30-2017, 03:53 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr 2 View Post
Wow, that worries me a little. I've autocrossed a Evo for years and wanted to upgrade to the M2 thinking it would be a good "out of the box" track car. I want to get into some occasional track day. I want to leave the car stock, no mods.
I'm pretty sure any car with macpherson style struts and no more than 1-1.5 degree of negative camber in the front is always going to roll the outside edge of any tire. Any car including the evo.

Occasional will be fine. I have no desire to change my brand new BMW strut mounts to less compliant solid camber mounts anytime soon. Vorshlag makes a great product. I have the plates on my e36, but they are solid. So I'll "live" with -1.5 degrees of camber which is 0.5 more than you normally get on stock suspension.
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      01-30-2017, 06:54 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr 2 View Post
Wow, that worries me a little. I've autocrossed a Evo for years and wanted to upgrade to the M2 thinking it would be a good "out of the box" track car. I want to get into some occasional track day. I want to leave the car stock, no mods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Review cars are prepped with " M performance pads" , available at additional cost from your dealer. At the very least you should instead put your $600 towards those. The stock rotors are ok.


While still appropriate for a novice level driver ,
The stock M2 is the first BMW that I have ever known to be unsuitable for intermediate level HPDE drivers right out of the box. Track pads are essential.

If you plan to run more than two track weekends a year, you will find that camber plates are a "necessory..." as you will absolutely murder the outside edge of whatever sacrificial tire you run... particularly if running the stock front wheel and tire setup which are narrower up front.

It IS a good " out of the box track car " - possibly the best on the market not named Cayman.

It's also a great " B road car " as per a current article on this site.

No one said it isn't any of these.... and you shouldn't either..

I am not sure where your motivation to keep your car bone stock is coming from..

If it's because of a rule in your autocrosss competition.. just realize it will affect your tire budget.

If it's because you simply don't want to mod your car... .. just realize that depending on how often you run.. it will affect your tire budget. The more events you do.. the more your tire budget will be affected.

My 1M is absolutely stock except for camber plates. I attend 8-9 autocrosses a year and 2-4 DE events at a minimum.

Perhaps if you get an M2... and if you find that even buying used takeoffs for the track at $300 turns out to be a a poor value because you cord them so badly on the outside after one or two events that you cannot even get $300 value from them.. ... then perhaps you will make the same decision that I did regarding camber plates


Perhaps you will only autocross your car once or twice a year.. in which case.. you will be just fine.

Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 01-30-2017 at 08:22 PM..
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      01-30-2017, 10:48 PM   #27
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Thanks for the input. I still have a significant amount of waiting to do as I'm a week 12 production. Motivations are simply to keep a stock car. When I bought my Evo and got into autocrossing I immediately began modifying the car. Sometimes I feel like I ruined it even though its a very fast autocross car.

With the M2 I want to try and keep it as stock as possible. More than likely 3-4 autocross events a year and 1-2 track days. Just trying to do as much research as I can before I get the car.
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      01-31-2017, 10:39 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr 2 View Post
Thanks for the input. I still have a significant amount of waiting to do as I'm a week 12 production. Motivations are simply to keep a stock car. When I bought my Evo and got into autocrossing I immediately began modifying the car. Sometimes I feel like I ruined it even though its a very fast autocross car.

With the M2 I want to try and keep it as stock as possible. More than likely 3-4 autocross events a year and 1-2 track days. Just trying to do as much research as I can before I get the car.
If you invest in track pads and fluid you will be golden and keep it close to stock. I used Castrol SRF, so one year fluid change, and RS29 pads, which once the wheels are off takes 10 minutes to change out, so once I'm on the street, my car is stock. If you watch your tires and take care of them, they should be good for a few events, I did 10 full track days on the PSS, only destroyed my front left tire on the last day of the season, putting down times that were faster than my friend's track prepped 996 GT3.
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      01-31-2017, 01:30 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGL View Post
If you invest in track pads and fluid you will be golden and keep it close to stock. I used Castrol SRF, so one year fluid change, and RS29 pads, which once the wheels are off takes 10 minutes to change out, so once I'm on the street, my car is stock. If you watch your tires and take care of them, they should be good for a few events, I did 10 full track days on the PSS, only destroyed my front left tire on the last day of the season, putting down times that were faster than my friend's track prepped 996 GT3.
Do you have camber plates?

Just as a reference point. I just did my first track day with the m2 last Saturday and my fronts didn't show uneven wear and I had no issues with the brakes. The morning started around 40 degrees and ended up at around 60 at peak temperatures. So the weather probably played a big role. I also was not the fastest person in my intermediate run group, but not the slowest either.

Im worried though that as I get more used to the car and push it more then camber plates will be a necessity to extend the life of my fronts. I know I will need some pagids come spring and summer time for sure.
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      02-10-2017, 01:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greasypeanut View Post
Do you have camber plates?

Just as a reference point. I just did my first track day with the m2 last Saturday and my fronts didn't show uneven wear and I had no issues with the brakes. The morning started around 40 degrees and ended up at around 60 at peak temperatures. So the weather probably played a big role. I also was not the fastest person in my intermediate run group, but not the slowest either.

Im worried though that as I get more used to the car and push it more then camber plates will be a necessity to extend the life of my fronts. I know I will need some pagids come spring and summer time for sure.
The cooler temps will help a bit. Do you know what your tire temps were - hot? If you started the day off on stock temps I am sure you the tires were hotter than their most optimal temp (ie 36-42 psi hot - says a Michelin rep for best PSS temps). When the temps are higher in the front the tires will "stand" better, less rolling over. So, this could be one reason. Another could be you are fast but not yet fast enough.

Yes, you will hit a point where you will certainly need camber plates! With -2.5 to -3.0 in the front. When the day comes to do so, take your time learning and feeling the progression of changing suspension settings.
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      02-13-2017, 12:47 PM   #31
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In May I will attempt my first trackday in my M2
(second ever) at Zolder (Belgium). This will be a few hours with an instructor and a few 30min runs of free driving. I figure the stock brakes and pads will be fine here, since Zolder is not an high speed course and I'm a novice. I won't ruin my rotors, will I?

In summer, Spa francorchamps is on the planning. Maybe this will be the moment to upgrade the pads, maybe even the brake fluid.

Can you guys give me advice on what to do?

Change the pads to M performance pads, or go with pagid R19's or Ferodo's DS range (2500 or better)? Can the M performance pads or other racepads be used on the street or are they too noisy? I have no experience changing pads so it is quite scary to drive up with stock pads and change them at the track for track pads.

Will changing pads will be useless without changing brake fluid? And what brake fluid to go for? Will the stock calipers hold up?
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      02-17-2017, 08:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Belgium View Post
In May I will attempt my first trackday in my M2
(second ever) at Zolder (Belgium). This will be a few hours with an instructor and a few 30min runs of free driving. I figure the stock brakes and pads will be fine here, since Zolder is not an high speed course and I'm a novice. I won't ruin my rotors, will I?

In summer, Spa francorchamps is on the planning. Maybe this will be the moment to upgrade the pads, maybe even the brake fluid.

Can you guys give me advice on what to do?

Change the pads to M performance pads, or go with pagid R19's or Ferodo's DS range (2500 or better)? Can the M performance pads or other racepads be used on the street or are they too noisy? I have no experience changing pads so it is quite scary to drive up with stock pads and change them at the track for track pads.

Will changing pads will be useless without changing brake fluid? And what brake fluid to go for? Will the stock calipers hold up?
Since I'm in the US I have no experience at that track. Do be aware that shorter tracks can in some cases be harder on the brakes than larger higher speed tracks. The speeds are lower at smaller tracks but this may make it harder for the brakes to cool down. Someone with experience at that track will have to chime in on whether that track is hard on brakes.

I have used DS2500s in my 1 but not my M2. These are fine on the street and better than factory pads and hold up well at the track. I'm confident they would be fine. I've also heard that the BMW perf pads are fine. This is what the factory drivers use at the driving schools. They aren't available though in the US so I have no first hand experience with these. More serious pads will likely be too noisy and may not perform well on the street. You could probably get away with them to and from the track but may be intolerable depending on the pad.
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      02-18-2017, 05:32 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
RE71R have pretty stiff sidewalls. I was ruining the tires on the outside edges while they have full tread on the inside. After camber plates the wear is basically perfect.

This has typically been an issue with BMWs in the past, and I don't think this car is any different. Of course if you are not pushing the car you will have less wear, but the outsides will still wear first.
When my Z4M was still on stock suspension and stock geo, I had not a problem with uneven tyre wear...and I tracked that car a lot as you can see on my You Tube
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      02-18-2017, 05:36 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Review cars are prepped with " M performance pads" , available at additional cost from your dealer. At the very least you should instead put your $600 towards those. The stock rotors are ok.
Correct! Anyone know which brand these M performance pads are exactly?
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      02-18-2017, 05:54 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2 Belgium View Post
In May I will attempt my first trackday in my M2
(second ever) at Zolder (Belgium). This will be a few hours with an instructor and a few 30min runs of free driving. I figure the stock brakes and pads will be fine here, since Zolder is not an high speed course and I'm a novice. I won't ruin my rotors, will I?

In summer, Spa francorchamps is on the planning. Maybe this will be the moment to upgrade the pads, maybe even the brake fluid.

Can you guys give me advice on what to do?

Change the pads to M performance pads, or go with pagid R19's or Ferodo's DS range (2500 or better)? Can the M performance pads or other racepads be used on the street or are they too noisy? I have no experience changing pads so it is quite scary to drive up with stock pads and change them at the track for track pads.

Will changing pads will be useless without changing brake fluid? And what brake fluid to go for? Will the stock calipers hold up?
Sorry; but you have it completely wrong! Zolder is a brake killer and you definitely need to upgraded brake pads and brake fluid if you don't want to destroy your brakes (pads or rotors) and have some fun. Even if you are novice! By the way; novices brake more on track then they need to. I have seen a standard Z3M coupe with a novice driver that had his brakes on fire and even my experienced friend in his GT3 RS had his standard GT3 brake pads destroyed (broken in two) on Zolder (he is now driving with Pagid RS-29).

Me personally I don't drive on Zolder anymore (drove it 2 times)... It's a good an easy track to learn and begin. I don't like the track personally and it kills the brakes to fast. Spa is also hard for the brakes, but has longer stretches were the brakes can cool down. The track is massively fun and exciting! I do 10 trackdays a year (80% Nurburgring) and I can call myself a rather experienced trackway driver. So trust me; upgrade you brakes before hitting the tracks you mentioned with your rather heavy M2.

You can drive track brake pads on the street if you can handle the noise (personal taste). I haven driven Pagid RS-14 and RS-29 on the street with my Z4M with AP brakes. They will make a lot of noise when braking, but you can perfectly use them. RS-29 is a better brake pad then the RS-19 with more initial byte. You could also choice the M-performance brake pads from BMW (those are Textar pads, but I assume the compound is similar to Pagid, because Pagid is a part of the Textar group)
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      02-19-2017, 11:50 PM   #36
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Questions for you guys:

1. How much negative camber to you run on the track and how much do you run on the street? Are these numbers different?

2. Do the RS29's need to be "rebedded"? Can they be used with the stock rotor that was previously using stock pads? Noise levels?

3. Those of you running SS lines, how long did the install take for you? I run SS lines on all my race motorcycles for feel/consistency - Any noticeable change?
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      02-20-2017, 12:16 AM   #37
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Can anyone post a video or instructions how to change the pads at the track? What tools and equipment do I need?
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      02-20-2017, 06:03 AM   #38
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Can anyone post a video or instructions how to change the pads at the track? What tools and equipment do I need?
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      02-20-2017, 07:08 AM   #39
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In case anyone is still questioning the need for camber plates. It doesn't show well here but the outer edge is showing traces of the cord. I have 5000 miles and 3 track days on these. I installed some camber plates and am now at about -3 camber. I have yet to track the car at this setting.
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      02-20-2017, 09:12 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
In case anyone is still questioning the need for camber plates. It doesn't show well here but the outer edge is showing traces of the cord. I have 5000 miles and 3 track days on these. I installed some camber plates and am now at about -3 camber. I have yet to track the car at this setting.
Pyrat, Any sense of what happens to toe when camber is changed?

I'm looking at GC/TC/Vorshlag plates, and wondering if the toe change between street/track camber settings, say 1.5 to 3, is acceptable or wicked awful. That's really going to drive whether an easily adjustable camber plate is of any value to me.

Looking at a 8 hour drive to VIR, and not looking to tear up street tires on the way there and back

Thanks for any insight,
rjn
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      02-20-2017, 03:54 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjn View Post
Pyrat, Any sense of what happens to toe when camber is changed?

I'm looking at GC/TC/Vorshlag plates, and wondering if the toe change between street/track camber settings, say 1.5 to 3, is acceptable or wicked awful. That's really going to drive whether an easily adjustable camber plate is of any value to me.

Looking at a 8 hour drive to VIR, and not looking to tear up street tires on the way there and back

Thanks for any insight,
rjn
I do know it will affect the Toe. Not sure how much though as I haven't yet had mine adjusted since adding the plates. Will probably get the car in within the next few weeks for an alignment. Will get a before and after when I do.
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      02-21-2017, 01:25 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjn View Post
Pyrat, Any sense of what happens to toe when camber is changed?

I'm looking at GC/TC/Vorshlag plates, and wondering if the toe change between street/track camber settings, say 1.5 to 3, is acceptable or wicked awful. That's really going to drive whether an easily adjustable camber plate is of any value to me.

Looking at a 8 hour drive to VIR, and not looking to tear up street tires on the way there and back

Thanks for any insight,
rjn
I tried this and measured at -3 and 0. Was way too big of a change, would destroy tires. I settled on compromising at -2.5.
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      02-21-2017, 08:35 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
I do know it will affect the Toe. Not sure how much though as I haven't yet had mine adjusted since adding the plates. Will probably get the car in within the next few weeks for an alignment. Will get a before and after when I do.
That'd be great to know.

Also, 2 other questions if you'd share.
- Whose camber plates did you go with?
- Are you running stock or skinny C/O springs?

Really want to be able to get to ~-3

Thanks again for the info!
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      02-21-2017, 08:37 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
I tried this and measured at -3 and 0. Was way too big of a change, would destroy tires. I settled on compromising at -2.5.
Yikes, that's scary...0 to -3 is a big swing though.

I'd be willing to go from -3 for the track to -1.5 or even -2 for the street if it made for a friendly enough toe setting.

Just not that much data out there yet - Thanks again for sharing!
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