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M2 Technical Topics > Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in | Oil & Fluids | Servicing | TSB | Recalls > Rear turn indicator failure

View Poll Results: Have your M2C rear indicator units failed?
Yes 135 63.68%
No 77 36.32%
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      08-29-2020, 07:46 PM   #89
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Exactly as I said previously. Instead of listening to logic and reason and explanations to how shit actually works, you tell me to go pound sand.

And it does not matter that disabling the bulb check works. I'm not disagreeing with that. Never did. I've explained numerous times my concern is how dangerous it is to do that. You clearly do not have any clue how the BMW taillight system functions and have zero ways to test the solutions you are recommending to people, because you do not have the same vehicle config as them. Even disabling the bulb check is irrelevant for you because of your car's config. Therefore it's extremely dangerous for you to be recommending solutions to people, that you have no way of testing and verifying work and aren't harmful. On top of that, now you are recommending that people physically modify the electric systems of their cars. While having a clear lack of understanding of even entry level electrical engineering concepts.

That is what my problem is. I won't sit here letting you give nonsense minformation that is potentially harmful to people.

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      08-29-2020, 11:57 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
That is what my problem is. I won't sit here letting you give nonsense minformation that is potentially harmful to people.
Damn, you just won't quit, you're like an ignorant Energizer Bunny..

First of all, I know exactly what I'm doing, I study technical manuals in my spare time and reverse engineer old parts to trace its entire operation.

Hence the reason, from my actual research, I was able to find viable solution to this issue, unlike the few that choose to be willfully ignorant, making unfounded accusations, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Why instead of spewing all this mouth diarrhea, you don't just shut me down with some actual proof that what I'm suggesting is nefarious and wrong. Anything; a link, an article, testimonial, etc. Anything that might have a morsel of substance, that would stop me dead in my tracks and make me looks as clueless as you right now. Maybe it's because you don't even know what the fvck you're actually worried or talking about...

The lightening system in BMWs are not exactly rocket science. It hasn't changed from the it's origins in the F30 from 2012. The part numbers, equipment and exact iStep module programming are all the same, from 2012 to 2021, i.e. The F-Series. (See actual proof below)

It will be revised again when specific generation progresses. So that fact that your called my car "old" and not related, just confirms how lost and daft your truly are and that money might be able to buy you a newer MY vehicle but you can't unfortunately purchase commonsense. What a shame..

There is no direct sensor to detect a bulb outage, the REM/FEM modules monitors an indirect flow of current and based on its set parameters, determines if the flow is out of bound, thus indicating a bulb might be out or now.

As evident by the topic, this method of measurement is not always the most efficient form of detection, especially when the light clusters mixed with incandescent and LEDs together. This create instances where it might receive a false-positive readings, where a light is functioning fine but the REM current draw assumes that there is an outage.

Removing the bulb checks just meaning the REM module will not longer send pulses to determine if there is a bulb outage, that's it! The remainder of system that checks for other related faults still remain intact.

The same way you can code out your tire pressure sensors, while on the track, where the TPMS sensors will no longer checks for a low or blow out tires, yet everything else still remains kosher, it just now, specially, the tires are no longer monitored. The car is just as safe as it was with the sensors active but now the nannies are not longer bitching. Removing the bulb check is the same exact principle.

BMW FEM/REM modules runs on a BUS networks, where they are all interconnected and uses a system cataloged by parameters to determine which specific segment of coding to run. Removing the bulb check is not a hack, the firmware is actually designed this way for this very exact reason; disabling the "bulb" check, when LEDs are installed.

Removing the bulb check is changing a number within the catalog from say "01 to "02" - very much like going into a Windows computer BIOS menu and making adjustments for the key stroke speeds or screen display. Nothing that's detrimental to its normal course of operation, simple just a change in a recessed menu.

You can add an aftermarket load resistor to trick the system to believing that their is a consistent flow of power, where it would never know if the LED (or even incandescent bulbs) is actually out, since the resistor acts as a dummy, functioning incandescent bulb, without emitting light, yet drawing the same amperage as a fully functioning light bulb.

However, as I mentioned, the heat sink of the aftermarket resistor became too hot for my liking and require you splice into the factory wiring. Two things that doesn't sit will with me, when there cleanest and simples solution is to simple remove the bulb checks and be done.

I'm not sure what's your problem but everything I stated I can backed up with actually evidence and personal testimonials. You're just shaking in your boot because you're oblivious to the system's
MO and incorrectly assuming your car is going to spontaneously combust into flames, which is actually humorous to me, being so dead wrong yet strong in your convictions but it's getting old now and we keep going around in circles.

I'll tell you what Mother Theresa, you're so worried about me spreading factual and verified information to the public, of which you've label as "misinformation." I'll make you deal to save the day, if you fine me one iota of official evidence that decoding the bulb checks is in anyway harmful to the lighting system, beside your unverified but misguided fears, I promise you I'll delete all my related post on the subject and my entire account today. Ball is in your court, you have a forum to save! I'll just patiently wait right here for my comeuppance 🙄... [/B]



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      08-30-2020, 05:28 AM   #91
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      08-30-2020, 06:52 AM   #92
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There is nothing quite like a Poochie fight. Often it ends up like Rainman versus Mike Tyson but depending on the contest rules anyone can win on the night.

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      08-30-2020, 07:06 AM   #93
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There is nothing quite like a Poochie fight. Often it ends up like Rainman versus Mike Tyson but depending on the contest rules anyone can win on the night.

this should be Pay Per View...
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      08-30-2020, 02:58 PM   #94
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Poochie, the fact that you cannot comprehend a single argument I make makes it even more unlikely you are comprehending completely irrelevant info you're reading about the BMW tail lights.

I don't know why I keep repeating myself to you, because you just don't seem to get it. My argument has absolutely nothing to do with your car being old. It has to do with you having a different car with taillight modifications different than the people who are giving recommendations to. That because of this you cannot and can never test the solutions your are advising people to take because you cannot verify their validity yourself. Thereby putting people at risk of a fire, with no liability to recover from the damages.

It make no difference if a BMW 5-series tail light retrofit tells you to disable bulb checks (which it does not state that. As I've explained before, you aren't comprehending the guide properly) because the M2 does not have a tail light retrofit.

It means absolutely nothing that a honda civic puts a resistor when doing an aftermarket LED bulb swap in a tail light, because the honda civic does not have a bulb warm check that the M2 has, only on/off checks.

It makes no difference if I provide sources, for my extremely well reasons and thought out arguments (that you can't provide a counter argument to, let alone even attempt to provide one) The information and logic and fact that I can clearly explain how things work speaks for itself. But I am beginning to see why you keep asking me for sources, because you disregard anything anyone says if they don't provide a source. So you linking completely irrelevant sources in your mind is aimed at provided credibility to your dangerous solutions. This is why you disregard the nuances that make your solutions invalid and dangerous. Because as long as you provide a source, you think you are correct. Regardless if there is zero relevance or context of the sources you provide. Case in point, the completely irrelevant realoem image you are citing as a source in your above post. Attaching a picture to your post doesn't make you more credible.

The BMW bulb check DOES NOT send pulses to a bulb to check if a bulb is out. Do you not understand how that is functionally impossible and further pointless? If you send additional voltage to a bulb (led or incandesent) you brighten the bulb or burn it out. Which is a no-go in car lighting. Do you see bulbs brightening and dimming all the time in cars? No. Because bulb checks do not work that way. Further, sending additional power to a bulb is in no way a way to check if a bulb is out. The only way to check if a incandescent is out is a broken circuit caused by the filament in the bulb breaking. And the only way to monitor a LED if it's burnt out is to monitor it for consistent power usage.

On top of this, you seem to think BMW checks all bulbs at a single point. That that is why there is an error. Because BMW is testing turn signals, brake lights, reverse lights all at once with the same values, which doesn't work because some of those bulbs are LED and some are Incandesent. Which is completely untrue. BMW checks each bulb individually. As evidenced by the errors messages the car gives. That tell you if you have a turn signal error, a brake light failure, or a reverse light failure.

These two paragraphs I just wrote expose a critical flaw in your logic and voids your entire point, because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how bulb circuits and checks work.

And no, the car isn't just as safe when you disable bulb checks. Because when the bulb check checks for over supply and gives you the fast blinking indicators and error message that the turn signals are being over supplied. That error message indicates to you to turn the blinkers off to stop the blinkers from overheating and melting. Disabling that makes the car unsafe because you will no longer know when they bulbs are overdrawing current and you will have no indication to turn them off to prevent burning.

And no, a resistor DOES NOT trick a system into believing there is a consistent flow of power. You can kinda accomplish that with the addition of a regulated capacitor circuit, because capacitors store electricity, so when there is a drop in power the power stored in a capacitor can make up for it. But as far as a resistor, no. A resistor does not provide or store electricity. All it does it limit power going through it. For example, if you have 12w going into a 1w resistor, you will have 11w leaving it...

But let's say you add a resistor into the circuit. Well, for example purposes, lets say the car provides 12v to the bulb, and you add a 1v resistor so the bulb only receives 11v. Well, if the supply fluctuates, the current given to the bulb still would fluctuate. 12v supplied > 1v resistor > 11v to bulb. Fluctuating supply now provides 12.5v > 1v resistor > 11.5v delivered to bulb. A resistor is in absolutely no way a solution to control supply to a bulb.

Another fundamental flaw in your logic is that you state "resistors draw electricity" Which is completely wrong. Electricity is provided to circuits from a power source. No piece of electric in itself draws electricity. Electronics are inert until PROVIDED power. This is likely why you think a resistor would work, because you think a bulb is drawing electricity, so a resistor would limit how much it draws. But that is not how electronics work. Electronics are inert until SUPPLIED with electricity.

So, since you say you can back up everything you stated with sources, please show me the source you have that disabling the bulb check is not dangerous. Please show me any other forum members citing the bulb check is the solution to the turn signal malfunction. Please show me the source that shows electronics draw energy. Please show me the source that bulb checks are accomplished by providing additional power via pulses to a a bulb. Please provide the sources that BMW checks all bulbs, regardless of type, at a single source with a single current. Please show me the source that says resistors provide electricity to a circuit.

Stop providing sources of tail light retrofits from various model cars as solutions to the M2 specific tail light malfunction. That is irrelevant because a taillight retrofit is not the same as a tail light error. The pre-lci and lci models with turn signal malfunctions are not tail light retrofits. And stop providing irrelevant and context-less realoem images of blank controls as some kinda source.

Yes turning off a stop alarm stops the alarm from going off... no turning off an alarm does not stop the fire or keep you safer from fires.

You need to politely recuse yourself from trying to solve the tail light issue for people. You do not have any electrical knowledge to logically think out your claims or understand the references you read. Nor do you have a vehicle to rationally test your proposed solutions. Thereby making other guinea pigs to solutions you have no comprehension of how they work or the risks associated with them.

Last edited by Anthony1s; 08-31-2020 at 12:16 PM..
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      08-30-2020, 06:53 PM   #95
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Tried di-electric grease on the left side. Will see if it helps. I’ve been getting it fairly consistently, and getting the dealer to change tail lights which isn’t resolving the issue isn’t appealing.
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      08-31-2020, 08:31 PM   #96
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Poochie, let me repeat. Where are you sources for the following things? You've claimed you can back up everything you've said with sources. So, if you want to regain your credibility in resolving this issue, please provide sources for all these things you claim to be true.

1) That disabling the bulb check is not dangerous.

2) That other forum members have tested disabling the bulb check and state it's the proper solution to the turn signal malfunction

3) The source that shows inert electronics draw energy.

4) That bulb checks are accomplished by providing additional power via pulses to a a bulb.

5) That BMW checks all bulbs, regardless of type, at a single source with a single current.

6) The source that says resistors provide electricity to a circuit.
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      08-31-2020, 09:01 PM   #97
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I've had my left turn signal trigger a fault a few times. I used bimmercode to deactivate the warm bulb check for the rear signals. I'll update if my car burns down; for those of you without tinfoil hats, I'll keep you posted on the results.
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      08-31-2020, 09:57 PM   #98
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Again, Poochie. Not once did I say disabling the error check doesn't stop you from seeing the error. It's no different than taking the battery out of a smoke alarm.

I explained quite clearly why doing that is not a good idea. And you respond with a bunch of nonsense. At the very least, you should warn people there is a potential fire risk in taking your (untested) advise.
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      09-01-2020, 09:05 AM   #99
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Trying to get back to the root cause of the issue here, can someone explain why there isn't consistent failure on the right and left side?

The predominant failure is on the right, though some have reported occasionally on the left. What could possibly be the difference between the two sides?

If it's a grounding issue, as some have suspected, aren't they both ground the same way?
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      09-01-2020, 10:48 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Dodge View Post
Trying to get back to the root cause of the issue here, can someone explain why there isn't consistent failure on the right and left side?

The predominant failure is on the right, though some have reported occasionally on the left. What could possibly be the difference between the two sides?

If it's a grounding issue, as some have suspected, aren't they both ground the same way?
I want to answer your question but I'm worried that my buddy Dunning–Kruger might jump at my throat again, as he feel there can only be one ignorant expert!

Fvck it - the incandescent bulb check system is not active for "cold" checks, meaning it does not determine if the bulb is functioning, while not powered on.

Only when the feature is active (warm check), only as the turn signal is flashing, does it do a quick pulse check of the resistant current or amperage to determine if there is fault or open circuit.

The pluses are so quick and random that it might determine a right or left light is burnt out, not in any particular order.

There is no rhyme or reason to which side triggers an error first because the fact is they are both functioning properly but since the system can't distinguish between an actual "burnt out" bulb or a lower-flowing amperage but fully-functioning LED, an error code indicator is indicated, to whichever side detects an error first.

I was the one who originally suggested that it might of been a lack of ground polarity being the possible cause this hyper-flashing because there was a SIB for the Pre-LCI incandescent taillights, so I assumed it was a holdover issue, from the previous, lack of grounding.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...ess/1VnZ8zZX2B

However, I was working under the false assumption that the bulb checks was not active for the LCI/M2C LEDs because someone here with an M2C experiencing this issue, incorrectly informed me of this.

When I was able to verify for myself that the bulb checks was indeed active on the LCI/M2C, I then realize it was not exactly a lack of grounding that was causing this issue, as it had been on the pre-LCI.

With the new verified information available and process of elimination, I was able to narrow it down to a incandescent (warm) bulb checks remaining active, as the root and only cause of this hyper-flashing indicator.

Removing bulb check is 100% guaranteed to eliminate this and all error but be aware, that according to some members here, removing the incandescent bulb check specifically from your turn signals mapping can cause possible world-wide famine, wars, constitutional crisis, etc, so Caveat emptor.




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      09-01-2020, 01:46 PM   #101
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Wow that was a lot of reading....
So the consensus is, that we don’t know the RC of this issue?
And that turning off the warm bulb check can work as a bandaid at the price of risking a fire hazard if those turn signal LEDs were to go bad for real?
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      09-01-2020, 02:29 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Dodge View Post
Trying to get back to the root cause of the issue here, can someone explain why there isn't consistent failure on the right and left side?

The predominant failure is on the right, though some have reported occasionally on the left. What could possibly be the difference between the two sides?

If it's a grounding issue, as some have suspected, aren't they both ground the same way?
The root cause was figured out in 2016. There is insufficient grounding for the bulbs. There is an active TSB for 2016 and 2017 vehicles for this. I am working with a dealership to get it approved for vehicles newer than that. My dealership covered it under warranty sans that. However, without warranty it costs a total of $76 to the owner for them to repair and replace both tail light parts, and the repair is warrantied itself. Many many people have had this repair done over the years and have not had a single issue since.

Do not disable your bulb checks. It's the equivalent to taking the batteries out of your smoke alarm. Stops the beeping but doesn't stop the fire.
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      09-01-2020, 02:32 PM   #103
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Poochie, I've explained numerous times how your theory is functionally impossible. STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION FROM OTHER VEHICLES THAT WILL HARM PEOPLE AND THEIR CARS!!

Last edited by Anthony1s; 09-01-2020 at 02:40 PM..
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      09-01-2020, 03:10 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Dodge View Post
Trying to get back to the root cause of the issue here, can someone explain why there isn't consistent failure on the right and left side?

The predominant failure is on the right, though some have reported occasionally on the left. What could possibly be the difference between the two sides?

If it's a grounding issue, as some have suspected, aren't they both ground the same way?
The root cause was figured out in 2016. There is insufficient grounding for the bulbs. There is an active TSB for 2016 and 2017 vehicles for this. I am working with a dealership to get it approved for vehicles newer than that. My dealership covered it under warranty sans that. However, without warranty it costs a total of $76 to the owner for them to repair and replace both tail light parts, and the repair is warrantied itself. Many many people have had this repair done over the years and have not had a single issue since.

Do not disable your bulb checks. It's the equivalent to taking the batteries out of your smoke alarm. Stops the beeping but doesn't stop the fire.
Appreciate the response, and definitely understand your position.

But you didn't answer the question I'm personally most interested in...if it is a grounding issue, why does it predominantly impact the right side? Aren't both sides ground the same way?

Seems reasonable to expect that there would be a roughly equal rate of failure between the right and left side if they were ground the same way. Assuming they are, I'm lead to believe there is something else at play here too.

Edit: do you have the TSB number? Would be interested to read and provide to my dealer next time I'm in for service
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      09-01-2020, 03:13 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Dodge View Post
Appreciate the response, and definitely understand your position.

But you didn't answer the question I'm personally most interested in...if it is a grounding issue, why does it predominantly impact the right side? Aren't both sides ground the same way?

Seems reasonable to expect that there would be a roughly equal rate of failure between the right and left side if they were ground the same way. Assuming they are, I'm lead to believe there is something else at play here too.
It doesn't predominantly impact the right side. Analyze your driving habits for the next few weeks. Are you making mostly right turns? And are you noting each time the errors comes up for if it's the right or left side?

I thought mine was only the right side too. Until I started looking at how I was driving... the same route everyday with almost all right turns. Then started taking a picture every time the error came up for a year and a half (for proof for my dealership) and saw it was only slightly the errors for the right side. After we watched my driving route and reviewed the data at the dealership.
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      09-01-2020, 03:49 PM   #106
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So it’s not just the pre-LCIs that were affected with the ground issue, it also applies to the newer LED tails also. Correct?
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      09-01-2020, 04:54 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Dodge View Post
Trying to get back to the root cause of the issue here, can someone explain why there isn't consistent failure on the right and left side?

The predominant failure is on the right, though some have reported occasionally on the left. What could possibly be the difference between the two sides?

If it's a grounding issue, as some have suspected, aren't they both ground the same way?
The root cause was figured out in 2016. There is insufficient grounding for the bulbs. There is an active TSB for 2016 and 2017 vehicles for this. I am working with a dealership to get it approved for vehicles newer than that. My dealership covered it under warranty sans that. However, without warranty it costs a total of $76 to the owner for them to repair and replace both tail light parts, and the repair is warrantied itself. Many many people have had this repair done over the years and have not had a single issue since.

Do not disable your bulb checks. It's the equivalent to taking the batteries out of your smoke alarm. Stops the beeping but doesn't stop the fire.
You're so lost it's almost funny must mostly annoying and sad, you're attempting to pay the dealership for something they can't possible complete. But I guess they don't mind taking your money, since you seem to maybe more of that than brains..

If you actually had any common sense and cared to actually educate yourself before jumping to conclusions, you'll see that adding the additional grounding SIB for the pre-LCI taillight is not possible with your LCI LED taillights because it requires replacement of the back panel that holds all the incandescent light cluster.

The LED LCI taillights not have a removable back cluster, so it's impossible for them to compete this SIB.

You're on this crusade to prove me wrong, yet you have not a shred of evidence that what I concluded is any way harmful to the vehicle (because it's not). Yet, you keep going.

However, I guarantee that as long as the bulb check is active, the system will throw this error, regardless of what nonsense your choose to blindly throw money at.. Good luck with all that..

Here, I know you evidence and proof is your kryptonite, let me weaken you with this; pre-LCI taillight backing plate, obviously different from the LCI and grounding, rendering what you paid the dealership for impossible:
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      09-01-2020, 05:27 PM   #108
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Dear Poochie, as usual, not reading a damn word I said and making up whatever he wishes I said.

NOT ONCE DID I SAY IT USES THE SAME REPAIR PIECE AS THE PRE-LCI TSB!!

You really need to read what I fucking write before commenting.
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      09-01-2020, 08:12 PM   #109
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Yea? What words of yours didn't I read. You're entire reply was explaining how the old TSB solution doesn't work for the LCI tail lights and accused me of using a solution that doesn't work. Then you go on and on gaslighting because now you're saying I said the solution is adding a ground wire. Again, not once did I say that. This is an actual TSB solution and BMW part I am working on. I've been talking about this for months.

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      09-02-2020, 05:14 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1s View Post
And no, a resistor DOES NOT trick a system into believing there is a consistent flow of power. You can kinda accomplish that with the addition of a regulated capacitor circuit, because capacitors store electricity, so when there is a drop in power the power stored in a capacitor can make up for it. But as far as a resistor, no. A resistor does not provide or store electricity. All it does it limit power going through it. For example, if you have 12w going into a 1w resistor, you will have 11w leaving it...

But let's say you add a resistor into the circuit. Well, for example purposes, lets say the car provides 12v to the bulb, and you add a 1v resistor so the bulb only receives 11v. Well, if the supply fluctuates, the current given to the bulb still would fluctuate. 12v supplied > 1v resistor > 11v to bulb. Fluctuating supply now provides 12.5v > 1v resistor > 11.5v delivered to bulb. A resistor is in absolutely no way a solution to control supply to a bulb.
I have not had time to read the entire thread here or do my own analysis, but as someone with an EE degree, I can tell you that you have absolutely no idea how resistors, capacitors, or inductors work based on these quoted statements.

There is no such thing as a 1W resistor that limits power to 1W. The power rating on a resistor is nothing more than a THERMAL limit telling you how much power it can dissipate (nominally) before it burns up. Resistors act according to Ohm's Law; a 1W resistor does not magically limit power by 1W. You can easily prove this. Buy a 1W rated 10 Ohm resistor. Hook up a 12V DC supply capable of a few W up to one end of it and ground to the other and let me know what happens.

There is also no such thing as a "1V resistor" to drop 1V.

If you want to speak about electronics, you should get the very very basics right and understand Ohm's Law and Kirchoff's laws.

V = I*R
P = I*V or
P = I^2*R or
P = V^2/R
etc...

Whether or not you are correct about the solution or whatever else, you should not post on electronics when you don't even have a high school level understanding of it. I'm not saying Poochie does either, just that this is hilariously incorrect.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...ic/ohmlaw.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...ic/elepow.html

Last edited by chris719; 09-02-2020 at 05:49 PM..
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