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      08-08-2020, 06:48 AM   #199
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That’s a good question. I’ve had multiple shops do the coolant flushes. I’ll ask my last shop how they did it.

I will say my latest tune, half E85, Evo3, and distilled water + wetter seems to be helping. I still hit 250F coolant but it took 13 back to back 3-4, 3-4-5 pulls with hard braking in between on a 95F day to get it there.

It seemed like the ECU was keeping it under control, whereas before I could blow right past the first temp warning.

Last edited by ZM2; 08-08-2020 at 07:09 AM..
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      08-08-2020, 03:13 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
That’s a good question. I’ve had multiple shops do the coolant flushes. I’ll ask my last shop how they did it.

I will say my latest tune, half E85, Evo3, and distilled water + wetter seems to be helping. I still hit 250F coolant but it took 13 back to back 3-4, 3-4-5 pulls with hard braking in between on a 95F day to get it there.

It seemed like the ECU was keeping it under control, whereas before I could blow right past the first temp warning.
Yes please let us know how your coolant was flushed.

Very interesting, it does seem to be getting better. What are your coolant mix ratios?

Also do you have any track logs with the current setup?

Also this mod is not too too intrusive but I recommend disconnecting your coolant loop from the coolant oil hear exchanger so the oil temps don't drag up the coolant temps. Then see if it helps the coolant temps which it should.


Overall good stuff.
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      08-08-2020, 03:31 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Yes please let us know how your coolant was flushed.

Very interesting, it does seem to be getting better. What are your coolant mix ratios?

Also do you have any track logs with the current setup?

Also this mod is not too too intrusive but I recommend disconnecting your coolant loop from the coolant oil hear exchanger so the oil temps don't drag up the coolant temps. Then see if it helps the coolant temps which it should.


Overall good stuff.
There’s probably about 10% glycol in the loop. Waiting to get track logs soon.

I’m not sure how the oil/water cross flow exchanger mod would work without completely removing it. I don’t think I want oil still running thru one side by itself—seems like that could crack the exchanger if it’s not tough enough.

Maybe you know a good way to do this, as it would be a good summer time mod when I don’t need to worry about the car warming up after cold start.
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      08-08-2020, 05:24 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
There’s probably about 10% glycol in the loop. Waiting to get track logs soon.

I’m not sure how the oil/water cross flow exchanger mod would work without completely removing it. I don’t think I want oil still running thru one side by itself—seems like that could crack the exchanger if it’s not tough enough.

Maybe you know a good way to do this, as it would be a good summer time mod when I don’t need to worry about the car warming up after cold start.
It should be more than tough enough to handle just having hot oil going though it. Because remember at max temps with water running through it, the temps are not that much colder than hot oil by itself. So it should be fine.


It won't be too simple, but I would recommend disconnecting the coolant side and bridging the coolant inlet and outlet either by completely cutting off the connectors and joining the hose ends or finding the same male connector size and matching them together. If I were you I would ask your shop for ideas since for me I would just delete the whole unit and add a second aux rad in series and wouldn't have to worry about the reverting back to stock, so I do not have a easily revertable solution.
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      08-08-2020, 05:27 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
It should be more than tough enough to handle just having hot oil going though it. Because remember at max temps with water running through it, the temps are not that much colder than hot oil by itself. So it should be fine.


It won't be too simple, but I would recommend disconnecting the coolant side and bridging the coolant inlet and outlet either by completely cutting off the connectors and joining the hose ends or finding the same male connector size and matching them together. If I were you I would ask your shop for ideas since for me I would just delete the whole unit and add a second aux rad in series and wouldn't have to worry about the reverting back to stock, so I do not have a easily revertable solution.
Yeah, I definitely want to have it functional for cold morning starts, but it’s worth brainstorming with my shop. It was kinda on my hit list anyways, but hadn’t thought of a simple coolant bypass.

Will let you know what we figure out.
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      08-11-2020, 12:02 AM   #204
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The intake temps are absolutely insane

What intake are you running ⁉️

IAT - 161F
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      08-11-2020, 12:50 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
The intake temps are absolutely insane

What intake are you running ⁉️

IAT - 161F
Yeah that is insanely high, you are pushing your turbo way too far out of its efficiency range.


A vented hood will also help with under hood temps and help pull more air through the intercooler, so it might be a good idea to look into getting a gts style hood if you do not want one with giant vents.
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      08-11-2020, 06:43 AM   #206
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Yes, that is really high.

But, it turns out the Evo2 Comp isn't good enough for hot summer track work on a tuned car. My Evo3 is keeping IATs ~25F higher than ambient on 100F days and a ridiculous amount of back to back 3-4, 3-4-5 pulls. On the first pull the delta drops to 10-12F, after about 10 pulls it works up to 25F and stays stable no matter what I throw at it.

So, the IAT issue is solved. We'll see how engine temps are doing the next time I'm on track.
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      08-11-2020, 06:53 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Yes, that is really high.

But, it turns out the Evo2 Comp isn't good enough for hot summer track work on a tuned car. My Evo3 is keeping IATs ~25F higher than ambient on 100F days and a ridiculous amount of back to back 3-4, 3-4-5 pulls. On the first pull the delta drops to 10-12F, after about 10 pulls it works up to 25F and stays stable no matter what I throw at it.

So, the IAT issue is solved. We'll see how engine temps are doing the next time I'm on track.
Looking forward to seeing the data!
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      08-11-2020, 07:00 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Looking forward to seeing the data!
Here's a snapshot with focus on just IATs: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1727351

Will post up engine temps once I hit the track. I'll hit the dyno first and will post those results up in a different thread.
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      02-14-2021, 09:59 AM   #209
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At the risk of this thread becoming polluted and having to get the moderators involved, go back and re-read this entire thread before you respond.

In the very first post you will see that I have an upgraded IC, radiator, oil cooler, and DCT cooler on the car. These went on the same time as the Stage 4 Dinan & piggyback, knowing that cooling was going to be an issue with more power and open tracking on 100F days.

You will also note in the rest of the thread the other things I've done over the years to help address the issue.

I'm not sure why you keep saying I've run stock cooling with more than stock power on the track. That literally never happened and it's not stated anywhere.

I needed to revive this thread anyways before this year's track season b/c I've had several good discussions with other guys about additional cooling ideas, which I'll post up below.
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      02-14-2021, 10:13 AM   #210
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      02-14-2021, 10:18 AM   #211
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So, the quick update is I haven't had the car on track with all the COVID craziness since installing the Dorch HPFP and running Stg 2+ E30 OTS.

In the meantime, this is the best stress test log that I have with back to back pulls and hard braking in between (AP Racing) on a hot summer day: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5f11...729b5ec78a69a2

This was a beta Stg 2+ E30 map and I had those tiny WOT misfires (doesn't even register in the logs) at lower RPM at the time, which F87source helped diagnose as a plug gap too tight issue. I'm guessing with the plug fix and the latest Stg 2+ OTS 5.9 AFR changes temps will be similar, even tho target boost with the OTS is 0.5psi higher and the power is a little more than this beta map.

Coolant was getting up higher than desired after ~10th set of pulls (245-250F), but the slight power reduction from the DME kept it in check. Whereas with the Evo 2 Comp on the regular Stg 2 E30 map coolant temps would just keep going higher & higher no matter what the DME did unless I backed out of it or the car went into emergency cooling mode. Oil got up to 257F which is perfectly fine, whereas before I could get 270F+.

So, it seems the Evo3 Comp and lower IATs are helping for sure.

Below are all the changes between the last time I was on track and will be later this year:

-Stg 2+ vs. Stg 2 E30 (+42whp & +85wftlbs)
-Evo3 vs. Evo2 Comp (max IAT delta 25-27F vs 55-60F)
-E47 vs. E30 fuel (more ethanol cooling effect)
-100% water with wetter in the cooling loop (better heat transfer)
-Shift b/n 6-6.5K vs. going to redline (better matches Stg 2+ power curve and should generate less upper RPM heat)
-BM3 Max Cool mode on (keep things a little cooler at the beginning of a session)
-Removing top engine cover to let heat escape better (doing anything I can before going crazy on cooling mods that might impact 4 seasons daily driving)

There was also some good additional cooling discussion in the Pure Turbo 800 thread that I'll summarize in this thread later today.

Last edited by ZM2; 02-14-2021 at 01:52 PM..
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      02-14-2021, 11:06 AM   #212
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As for other cooling ideas, detroitm2 was kind enough to let some of us indulge in cooling discussion on his Pure 800 thread: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1789132 since cooling becomes an issue with most any big turbo upgrade & tune (and even my tiny Stg 1 Dinan turbo).

So, I'll try to summarize those thoughts here:

General ideas from F87source
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=52
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=80

EFR vs Hybrid turbo comments from cookiesowns
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=56

Aero cooling mod ideas from F87source
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=89

My approach is to keep my car four seasons daily driving capable which rules out some of these suggestions, but if any of you guys try these and other fixes feel free to chime in!
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      02-14-2021, 02:38 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
As for other cooling ideas, detroitm2 was kind enough to let some of us indulge in cooling discussion on his Pure 800 thread: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1789132 since cooling becomes an issue with most any big turbo upgrade & tune (and even my tiny Stg 1 Dinan turbo).

So, I'll try to summarize those thoughts here:

General ideas from F87source
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=52
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=80

EFR vs Hybrid turbo comments from cookiesowns
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=56

Aero cooling mod ideas from F87source
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=89

My approach is to keep my car four seasons daily driving capable which rules out some of these suggestions, but if any of you guys try these and other fixes feel free to chime in!
Since you're running a stage 1 turbo you're not going to be pushing enough air through the motor for the tiny exhaust runners to be a problem:

Page 5 post #112 from Jeff at speed tech https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showt...t=44508&page=5

But note cylinder 4-6's volute is not as small as it seems because it does angle in towards cylinder 1-3's volute as seen by the dent in the top left. So in reality both volutes are the same size, this post was just to show how small they really are compared to an efr if curious. Yes an efr will flow more air resulting in less back pressure, but at your power levels I don't think there would be a tremendous amount of back pressure to worry about, or make a larger exhaust manifold worth it.

So with that aside we know these things can flow to 550 whp without issues, and since your stage 1 won't be moving enough air to really make saturating this a concern we can start to for other intake and exhaust solutions.


This is where we move to the MILVS and modified exhaust cam cobra Marty was working on.

1) The MILVS will allow more air to get into the motor lowering boost pressure, thus lowering iat's making for more cool dense air resulting in a cooler motor and more power. Remember boost is caused by air backing up in the intake tract waiting to enter the motor and get combusted, a higher boost is technically unwanted because it makes the air hotter and less dense. With the MILVS installed more air can enter the motor (because more valve lift and for a longer duration) and thus less air will be backed up. You will loose boost but you'll gain power because more air is getting into the motor which is desirable.

2) modified exhaust cam, this will be released soon hopefully. It will allow for more exhaust gasses to escape and thus lower cylinder temps, and allow for more air to fill the cylinder as exhaust gasses are not displacing air. This will result in more power and a cooler motor as less hot exhaust gasses will be trapped inside the cylinders.


These solutions should help you out with cooling just a bit more like we discussed, but I just wanted to share it for others to see as well.
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      02-14-2021, 03:12 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Since you're running a stage 1 turbo you're not going to be pushing enough air through the motor for the tiny exhaust runners to be a problem:

Page 5 post #112 from Jeff at speed tech https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showt...t=44508&page=5

But note cylinder 4-6's volute is not as small as it seems because it does angle in towards cylinder 1-3's volute as seen by the dent in the top left. So in reality both volutes are the same size, this post was just to show how small they really are compared to an efr if curious. Yes an efr will flow more air resulting in less back pressure, but at your power levels I don't think there would be a tremendous amount of back pressure to worry about, or make a larger exhaust manifold worth it.

So with that aside we know these things can flow to 550 whp without issues, and since your stage 1 won't be moving enough air to really make saturating this a concern we can start to for other intake and exhaust solutions.


This is where we move to the MILVS and modified exhaust cam cobra Marty was working on.

1) The MILVS will allow more air to get into the motor lowering boost pressure, thus lowering iat's making for more cool dense air resulting in a cooler motor and more power. Remember boost is caused by air backing up in the intake tract waiting to enter the motor and get combusted, a higher boost is technically unwanted because it makes the air hotter and less dense. With the MILVS installed more air can enter the motor (because more valve lift and for a longer duration) and thus less air will be backed up. You will loose boost but you'll gain power because more air is getting into the motor which is desirable.

2) modified exhaust cam, this will be released soon hopefully. It will allow for more exhaust gasses to escape and thus lower cylinder temps, and allow for more air to fill the cylinder as exhaust gasses are not displacing air. This will result in more power and a cooler motor as less hot exhaust gasses will be trapped inside the cylinders.


These solutions should help you out with cooling just a bit more like we discussed, but I just wanted to share it for others to see as well.
Great explanation, and is exactly why I've been preaching the benefits of a more efficient flow path!
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      02-14-2021, 03:44 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by cookiesowns View Post
Great explanation, and is exactly why I've been preaching the benefits of a more efficient flow path!
Thanks, I tried to make it clear and concise but when typing on my phone I kind of just ramble lol. I'm glad it was readable lol.
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      02-14-2021, 04:08 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Since you're running a stage 1 turbo you're not going to be pushing enough air through the motor for the tiny exhaust runners to be a problem:

Page 5 post #112 from Jeff at speed tech https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showt...t=44508&page=5

But note cylinder 4-6's volute is not as small as it seems because it does angle in towards cylinder 1-3's volute as seen by the dent in the top left. So in reality both volutes are the same size, this post was just to show how small they really are compared to an efr if curious. Yes an efr will flow more air resulting in less back pressure, but at your power levels I don't think there would be a tremendous amount of back pressure to worry about, or make a larger exhaust manifold worth it.

So with that aside we know these things can flow to 550 whp without issues, and since your stage 1 won't be moving enough air to really make saturating this a concern we can start to for other intake and exhaust solutions.


This is where we move to the MILVS and modified exhaust cam cobra Marty was working on.

1) The MILVS will allow more air to get into the motor lowering boost pressure, thus lowering iat's making for more cool dense air resulting in a cooler motor and more power. Remember boost is caused by air backing up in the intake tract waiting to enter the motor and get combusted, a higher boost is technically unwanted because it makes the air hotter and less dense. With the MILVS installed more air can enter the motor (because more valve lift and for a longer duration) and thus less air will be backed up. You will loose boost but you'll gain power because more air is getting into the motor which is desirable.

2) modified exhaust cam, this will be released soon hopefully. It will allow for more exhaust gasses to escape and thus lower cylinder temps, and allow for more air to fill the cylinder as exhaust gasses are not displacing air. This will result in more power and a cooler motor as less hot exhaust gasses will be trapped inside the cylinders.


These solutions should help you out with cooling just a bit more like we discussed, but I just wanted to share it for others to see as well.

Point 1-2 I will definitely be keeping an eye on.
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      02-14-2021, 04:15 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boldy1 View Post
Point 1-2 I will definitely be keeping an eye on.
MILVS are out and proven, they give a small peak power gain but give huge power gains throughout the rpm band giving alot of area under the curve.


modified exhaust cams are coming.
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      02-14-2021, 04:30 PM   #218
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Now we’ve got a good discussion going!
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      02-14-2021, 05:02 PM   #219
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Oh yeah and an air scoop will help lower iat's according to bepee who I can't tag for some reason. But I saw his posts on 2addicts.


Afe sells the scoop bepee used on his m235i for $50, but someone made a close copy of it and out the 3d model on thingaverse for free for 3d printing. But he since removed it from thingaverse so I don't know if I can share the .stl file even though I still have it.

So maybe I can make my own air scoop 3d model and share the stl files with you guys, but that depends on if I have the time to do usb a few other projects I have which include the ctek cable holder for my engine bay.
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      02-14-2021, 05:21 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Oh yeah and an air scoop will help lower iat's according to bepee who I can't tag for some reason. But I saw his posts on 2addicts.


Afe sells the scoop bepee used on his m235i for $50, but someone made a close copy of it and out the 3d model on thingaverse for free for 3d printing. But he since removed it from thingaverse so I don't know if I can share the .stl file even though I still have it.

So maybe I can make my own air scoop 3d model and share the stl files with you guys, but that depends on if I have the time to do usb a few other projects I have which include the ctek cable holder for my engine bay.
I’ve seen that, but was worried that it would rob too much air from the radiator since my IATs are under control now.
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