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      03-04-2020, 04:01 PM   #23
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What is the ground clearance between GTS and GT4?

I would like to have a car, which my wife also can drive without crashing the lower part of the bumper.



It is such a pity GT4 doesn't have the lift as GT3.
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      03-04-2020, 04:34 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by kart driver View Post
What is the ground clearance between GTS and GT4?

I would like to have a car, which my wife also can drive without crashing the lower part of the bumper.



It is such a pity GT4 doesn't have the lift as GT3.
Not sure of the exact numbers, but I can tell you it happens all the time on the front black plastic diffuser.

The 'rash' is on the underside - unless your wife pulls into a parking curb - so you have to really look to see it.

That said, the plastic part is relatively cheap (~$200 last I looked) and easy to replace. So, if it ever gets to point you cannot live with it, you just swap it out.

///AVM
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      03-05-2020, 03:05 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Not sure of the exact numbers, but I can tell you it happens all the time on the front black plastic diffuser.

The 'rash' is on the underside - unless your wife pulls into a parking curb - so you have to really look to see it.

That said, the plastic part is relatively cheap (~$200 last I looked) and easy to replace. So, if it ever gets to point you cannot live with it, you just swap it out.

///AVM
“it happens all the time”
Do you mean GT4 or GTS?
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      03-05-2020, 05:30 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by kart driver View Post
“it happens all the time”
Do you mean GT4 or GTS?
I have not driven a 2020 718 GT4, but I own a 718 CGTS and the minimum ground clearance is very similar (see below).

This is consistent with my having driven the 981 GT4 extensively, and my inability to differentiate the GT4/GTS ground height when driving, including tendency to rub the front splitter.

When I said it happens ‘all the time,’ the front splitter is quite vulnerable to curb elevations, e.g., at ramped driveway and parking lot entrances. If you have the time, room and patience you can attenuate occurrence via angled entry, as well as learned avoidance of known hazards locally.

As per my initial post, the ‘rash’ typically occurs on the underside of the front splitter, so not something anyone but you would notice unless getting down on knees and closely scrutinizing.

Personally, I do not care but, then again, I am admittedly not very attentive or concerned with road scars that accumulate over time, e.g., paint chips, windshield/front light nicks, etc.

If one has obsessive-compulsive tendencies, again, the front splitter can be replaced easily and relatively inexpensively when the rash 'just becomes too much to bear.'

2020 718 GT4 3.1 in
2019 718 GTS 3.9 in
2020 M2C 4.6 in
2018 M3 Competition Package 4.7 in

Of note, there is slight internet variance regarding numbers provided, but the numbers are relatively consistent and I believe useful for purposes of this discussion.

///AVM
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      03-06-2020, 06:38 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Going back and forth between my F80 and my ZHP, there's still a something about the ZHP's N/A powertrain that's much more satisfying than the F80. The 991.1S is the only other modern car I've driven that has the same engine linearity, precision, and response, and I'm expecting the 718 to be just as good. So what if I give up a few horsepower? That's not what I'm after, and that's not what the GTS 4.0 is about.
I am with you on strong preference for the NA experience. back in the day I chose the 128i over the 135i because of the NA characteristics of sound, connection, linearity, response. There is a reason porsche uses NA engines in most of its GT line up. I would give up outright speed any day for more connection.
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      03-06-2020, 08:16 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
I have not driven a 2020 718 GT4, but I own a 718 CGTS and the minimum ground clearance is very similar (see below).

This is consistent with my having driven the 981 GT4 extensively, and my inability to differentiate the GT4/GTS ground height when driving, including tendency to rub the front splitter.

When I said it happens ‘all the time,’ the front splitter is quite vulnerable to curb elevations, e.g., at ramped driveway and parking lot entrances. If you have the time, room and patience you can attenuate occurrence via angled entry, as well as learned avoidance of known hazards locally.

As per my initial post, the ‘rash’ typically occurs on the underside of the front splitter, so not something anyone but you would notice unless getting down on knees and closely scrutinizing.

Personally, I do not care but, then again, I am admittedly not very attentive or concerned with road scars that accumulate over time, e.g., paint chips, windshield/front light nicks, etc.

If one has obsessive-compulsive tendencies, again, the front splitter can be replaced easily and relatively inexpensively when the rash 'just becomes too much to bear.'

2020 718 GT4 3.1 in
2019 718 GTS 3.9 in
2020 M2C 4.6 in
2018 M3 Competition Package 4.7 in

Of note, there is slight internet variance regarding numbers provided, but the numbers are relatively consistent and I believe useful for purposes of this discussion.

///AVM

Thanks a lot for the feedback!

Are the above figures for 718 GTS with sports PASM or with normal PASM?

$200 or even more for the lip is nothing as per my understanding.
But it is just a matter of comfort while using a car being either relaxed or being under constant concentration when driving over uneven road pavement.


But to be honest the gt4 being 3.1 in against M2C 4.6 in is a huge difference.
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      03-06-2020, 09:16 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by kart driver View Post
Thanks a lot for the feedback!

Are the above figures for 718 GTS with sports PASM or with normal PASM?

$200 or even more for the lip is nothing as per my understanding.
But it is just a matter of comfort while using a car being either relaxed or being under constant concentration when driving over uneven road pavement.


But to be honest the gt4 being 3.1 in against M2C 4.6 in is a huge difference.
Kart

I am not certain if the above 718 GTS numbers are for PASM or PASM Sport? Nonetheless, PASM Sport (1) lowers another 0.4 in over PASM, (2) is only a $300 upgrade, and (3) I honestly have not seen any GTS without it . . . although I am certain a 718 without PASM Sports exists somewhere. Of course, the GT4 inherited the GT3 front suspension, which is different animal.

Regarding comfort, the suspension is both adaptive and driver adjustable. 'Comfort' is very subjective, and there is a spectrum of opinions regarding differences between the GT4 and GTS in terms of daily driving. In my own experience, the GTS is the perfect daily drive sport car.

The GT4 is a step-up in handling – which is hard to believe given the GTS handling – but I personally do not find the GT4 significantly more 'uncomfortable' than the GTS. What makes the GT4 more of a track-focused sport car is why some prefer the GTS, while others have converse needs and interests.

I find the GTS and GT4 both greatly daily drives, but this is a hugely driver-dependent opinion. They are very similar, yet very different.


///AVM
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      03-06-2020, 12:22 PM   #30
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If i didn't need back seats for my daily i'd ditch the M2C and get the GTS 4L any day, almost perfect daily driver. Unless the roads are terrible the GT4 should be fine as far as scraping, like someone else said you can just replace the lower plastic lip.
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      03-07-2020, 03:07 PM   #31
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I tried to daily drive my 981 GT4 and found it horrendous. Not because it was uncomfortable, but because the visibility was awful and the car has zero power lower in the rev range. I became quite bored of the car very quickly. Unless you are reserving it just for ripping up the backroads or track, I'd choose the ///M.
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      03-07-2020, 04:32 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by mrs.boost View Post
I tried to daily drive my 981 GT4 and found it horrendous. Not because it was uncomfortable, but because the visibility was awful and the car has zero power lower in the rev range. I became quite bored of the car very quickly. Unless you are reserving it just for ripping up the backroads or track, I'd choose the ///M.
Mrs. Boost

Your statement is well taken, and why I always say it is important to know your driving environment and personal comfort level for spirited driving within that environment. For many, if not most, access to low-end torque that comes with the turbo engines provides a great deal of satisfaction for daily driving and conditions.

However, the GT4 – nor any 718/911 - is about straight-line pulls. They are sport cars. They are about the chassis and associated handling as you pull Gs through the twisties. Makes no difference regarding my above comments as, again, the driver must have access to the proper driving environment and desire to push the performance.

So, I understand your saying the GT4 was boring according to what your daily driving environment allows, but the GT4 is anything but boring. I have a 718 CGTS with plenty of access to low-end torque, but I still live in the high-end of the rev band (heart of power band). My raodway environment allows for daily spirited driving . . . if it did not, well, I would daily a sporty coupe instead of a sport car.

///AVM
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      03-07-2020, 06:24 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Mrs. Boost

Your statement is well taken, and why I always say it is important to know your driving environment and personal comfort level for spirited driving within that environment. For many, if not most, access to low-end torque that comes with the turbo engines provides a great deal of satisfaction for daily driving and conditions.

However, the GT4 – nor any 718/911 - is about straight-line pulls. They are sport cars. They are about the chassis and associated handling as you pull Gs through the twisties. Makes no difference regarding my above comments as, again, the driver must have access to the proper driving environment and desire to push the performance.

So, I understand your saying the GT4 was boring according to what your daily driving environment allows, but the GT4 is anything but boring. I have a 718 CGTS with plenty of access to low-end torque, but I still live in the high-end of the rev band (heart of power band). My raodway environment allows for daily spirited driving . . . if it did not, well, I would daily a sporty coupe instead of a sport car.

///AVM

I didn't purchase the car for straight line speed by any means, but because it had sublime handling and I really enjoyed the N/A sound track. Unfortunately Porsche really neutered the car with its excessively long gearing. Even on twisties, I had to push the car very hard to get the feedback and thrill I was looking for. I did many weekends on B-roads, went on an exotic car rally focused around driving etc... I was still left wanting more, and overall felt unimpressed with the package.
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      03-07-2020, 06:36 PM   #34
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I know what you mean about the "thrill." There is something to be said for crazy torque felt by the butt dyno.
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      03-07-2020, 06:47 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrs.boost View Post
I didn't purchase the car for straight line speed by any means, but because it had sublime handling and I really enjoyed the N/A sound track. Unfortunately Porsche really neutered the car with its excessively long gearing. Even on twisties, I had to push the car very hard to get the feedback and thrill I was looking for. I did many weekends on B-roads, went on an exotic car rally focused around driving etc... I was still left wanting more, and overall felt unimpressed with the package.
Mrs. Boots

There is a reason I now own a 718 CGTS and not the 981 GT4 but, unlike you, I never felt remotely unimpressed driving the 981 GT4.

All the so-called critics on YouTube and internet really got in way too deep when it comes soundtrack of F6 over T4, and completely missed the boat on the T4 performance. Fortunately, I do not make decision based on others opinions, and the 718 CGTS is the best sport car I have ever owned.

Now, not to confuse things, I too have a place in my heart for the NA engines and am looking forward to seeing what the 718 GT4 and GTS 4.0 are all about compared to my current T4 and the 981 F6?

I honestly doubt the 718 GT4/GTS 4.0 will get me out of my T4 . . . but I believe the 911 GTS very possibly could in the near future.

At any rate, I am not trying to convince you of the GT4 merits. The GT4 was not a car for which you found favor in regard to your driving needs and interests . . . nothing more to it than that.

///AVM
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      03-07-2020, 10:19 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrs.boost View Post
Unfortunately Porsche really neutered the car with its excessively long gearing.
Agreed - while I'm sure the car will be otherwise fantastic, that one issue would likely be a fatal flaw for me. Since I don't do many track events (plus I'm turned off by the big wing of the GT4 and the lame top of the Spyder), I thought the GTS 4.0 might be very appealing to me until I got confirmation that it has the same absurdly tall gearing as the GT4 (not really a surprise considering it's pretty much the same drivetrain).

While I enjoy the low-end torque of my M2 - which I have no plans to part with - I'd be happy to rev another NA sports car besides my Miata. I'd seriously consider the GTS 4.0 but with that tall gearing, I'm holding out for the next 911 Carrera T (its redline is surprisingly only 300 rpm less!).
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      03-08-2020, 01:35 AM   #37
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I always hear about the long gearing on the gt4. How hard is it to change the final drive on those cars?
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      03-08-2020, 09:05 AM   #38
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I always hear about the long gearing on the gt4. How hard is it to change the final drive on those cars?
Mo

The long gearing is real, but only a 'problem' if expectation does not match application.

Gearing can be changed, but it is not cheap and I am uncertain of consensus regarding satisfactions and reliability of aftermarket offerings?

You really need to have track focus or daily driving environment that allows you to routinely wring engine out to maximize performance and driving pleasure in the GT4. Not many have interest and/or access to either the track or local roadway environments.

///AVM
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      03-08-2020, 10:00 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Mo

The long gearing is real, but only a 'problem' if expectation does not match application.

Gearing can be changed, but it is not cheap and I am uncertain of consensus regarding satisfactions and reliability of aftermarket offerings?

You really need to have track focus or daily driving environment that allows you to routinely wring engine out to maximize performance and driving pleasure in the GT4. Not many have interest and/or access to either the track or local roadway environments.

///AVM
Interesting. I’ve got neither the money nor the space to make the GT4 a reality in my life right now, but it’s definitely a car I’d love to own and something I could see myself picking up used someday. I’ve never really worked on a mid engined car, but I just don’t think I’d let something like gearing turn me off from what is otherwise just about perfect (according to reviewers.) Either the gearing wouldn’t bug me or I’d just swap it out for a shorter rear end. But my hypothetical also involves a used car out of warranty, so I can see why this hasn’t necessarily been a popular option for current owners.
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      03-08-2020, 12:23 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///AVM View Post
Mo

The long gearing is real, but only a 'problem' if expectation does not match application.

Gearing can be changed, but it is not cheap and I am uncertain of consensus regarding satisfactions and reliability of aftermarket offerings?

You really need to have track focus or daily driving environment that allows you to routinely wring engine out to maximize performance and driving pleasure in the GT4. Not many have interest and/or access to either the track or local roadway environments.

///AVM

Why spend 6 figures (CAD$) on a car that you need to spend several more thousand on to fix the gearing - at least that was my feeling. So I ditched the car.

Could barely get out of 2nd gear, even going quite quickly.

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      03-08-2020, 12:26 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobert View Post
Agreed - while I'm sure the car will be otherwise fantastic, that one issue would likely be a fatal flaw for me. Since I don't do many track events (plus I'm turned off by the big wing of the GT4 and the lame top of the Spyder), I thought the GTS 4.0 might be very appealing to me until I got confirmation that it has the same absurdly tall gearing as the GT4 (not really a surprise considering it's pretty much the same drivetrain).

While I enjoy the low-end torque of my M2 - which I have no plans to part with - I'd be happy to rev another NA sports car besides my Miata. I'd seriously consider the GTS 4.0 but with that tall gearing, I'm holding out for the next 911 Carrera T (its redline is surprisingly only 300 rpm less!).
Yes, the car ended up being a let down for me. My husband still loved it, and I really really tried to. But honestly I could not look past the awful gearing. I would get smoked by Camrys driving around the city. Utterly embarrassing!
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      03-08-2020, 01:08 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by mrs.boost View Post
Could barely get out of 2nd gear, even going quite quickly.
Yep, that is why I live in 2nd and 3rd gears . . . not for everyone.

///AVM
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      04-03-2020, 07:12 PM   #43
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///AVM - your 718 Cayman GTS looks wonderful!

I had the privilege of an extended test drive before the Corona lock down. I know keyboard warriors love beating on the 2.5l turbo, but it is a wonderful piece of engineering. With all the midrange torque, the effect of the long gearing is barely noticeable. I appreciate with the NA motor this will be more pronounced.

The chassis balance of the 718 is intrinsically better than the M2, and can be felt noticeably on my native British B road. And for my purposes it suits me better at this point in life.

I cannot imagine how BMW will improve on the chassis element of the M2 to justify the CS price delta over the competition. The power bump is negligible, and having driven the M4 ZCP for a while, I think most people will lose traction before running out of power - which can be a frustration in itself Mrs Boost.

What's worse than losing to a Camry.. for me.. having to chicken out in the Twisties chasing my Mrs in our Type R, knowing full well that she has a 130hp power deficit! (Maybe she's just a better driver than I am)
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      04-03-2020, 09:06 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Mosef81 View Post
///AVM - your 718 Cayman GTS looks wonderful!

I had the privilege of an extended test drive before the Corona lock down. I know keyboard warriors love beating on the 2.5l turbo, but it is a wonderful piece of engineering. With all the midrange torque, the effect of the long gearing is barely noticeable. I appreciate with the NA motor this will be more pronounced.

The chassis balance of the 718 is intrinsically better than the M2, and can be felt noticeably on my native British B road. And for my purposes it suits me better at this point in life.

I cannot imagine how BMW will improve on the chassis element of the M2 to justify the CS price delta over the competition. The power bump is negligible, and having driven the M4 ZCP for a while, I think most people will lose traction before running out of power - which can be a frustration in itself Mrs Boost.

What's worse than losing to a Camry.. for me.. having to chicken out in the Twisties chasing my Mrs in our Type R, knowing full well that she has a 130hp power deficit! (Maybe she's just a better driver than I am)
Thank you Mose!

The 718 CGTS is the best sport car I have ever owned. As you reference, the chassis is the secret ingredient. Porsche knows how to build a sport car.

Regarding F6 vs T4 debate. . . when it comes to performance, one stood out to me as superior. Got to be careful here because there are most definitely aspects of the NA engine I prefer, but not at the cost of the overall performance the T4 offers. Interested to see how the 718 GTS 4.0 performs when available in PDK?

I really like the M2C sport coupe. I only need one car and daily drive the piss out of my GTS. I do, however, have a growing urge to add an M2C or M4 to the mix . . . the M2CS offers zero appeal to me over the M2C.

Thank you again Mose and stay safe!

///AVM
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