[bentom2]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

No ABS is the hard one to get used to. I haven't driven a non-ABS car since 2004. And then last year I spent a day in a Caterham 7, and killed a lot of cones.

I got used to driving with Stability Control and TCS off on the Mustang. The M2 is even easier to drive at the limit, becasue of the magical active diff, and pretty much perfect chassis balance. The only place I keep the driver aids on is at the 'Ring. That place is frightening at speed.

I spent my first year of track driving in the other car, so I know what I’m getting into, but that was at a low-novice driving level. It’s getting a substantial mechanical refresh and seats/harnesses/half cage to make it a bit safer. Will be interesting to get back into it after a few years in modern cars.

I’ve been behind some non-abs cars when they put on a smoke show locking up the brakes into corners. Looks expensive. I can see how that might be the bigger adjustment.

Agree M2 is a very friendly platform for DSC off. The track I do drive DSC off is modern with decent runoffs, a good track surface, and the place I drive most, so my comfort level is high there. Two of the other local tracks are pretty old school with walls and/or minimal runoff in places that could have bad consequences. The last one is just a complex, technical track that I don’t get to often enough, but it’s a safe, modern track.

Excuses out of the way, my biggest hurdle is being willing to back off a couple tenths and work back up to my current pace. I like to take full advantage of the track time I paid for.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by bentom2

Excuses out of the way, my biggest hurdle is being willing to back off a couple tenths and work back up to my current pace. I like to take full advantage of the track time I paid for.

Setting yourself up to improve your skill set & be faster long term is taking full advantage of the track time you paid for imo

But I definitely know what you are saying, it is hard to take a step back sometimes even when you know there is likely benefit in doing so. Track time is not cheap & it can feel like you're not getting your money's worth if you are not running at full pace.

[bentom2]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Setting yourself up to improve your skill set & be faster long term is taking full advantage of the track time you paid for imo

But I definitely know what you are saying, it is hard to take a step back sometimes even when you know there is likely benefit in doing so. Track time is not cheap & it can feel like you're not getting your money's worth if you are not running at full pace.

You’re absolutely correct and get where I’m coming from.

I do need to put away the lap timer for a while and focus on skills vs speed. Speed as a focus for the last year or so has this nice self-reinforcing and motivating tangible result, so it is hard to step back, but long term is certainly worth it.

[mr_lab_rat]

Since we are chatting about tires I would like to share my misery as Canadian.

Tires in Canada are more expensive than in the USA. I'm struggling to justify buying track wheels.

I can get PS4S set in OEM size for about 1750 CAD. The RE71 are actually more money, Indy 500 are a 1350 CAD.

I know I can be faster on stickier tire but I'm having tons of fun on the OEM tires and with approximately 3 track days per year it would take several years for dedicated track wheels to pay for themselves.

[tux2005]

As an intermediate student I destroyed the shoulders of my stock MPSS in 4 days so I definitely considered track wheels worth it. Mind you, that was also without camber plates.

I paid $1640 for 18" RE71s a month ago, I normally paid a little less for RS4s but the shop was sold out of them for the season (I prefer their life even if the performance isn't as good, as others have also commented). Getting track wheels lets you go down to 18"s (obviously only on OGs or M2C without the bigger brakes) which gives you more options and cheaper tires.

I don't think the Indy 500s are that great for use as a track tire on our cars, I can't say that I've know many people to use them at my track days but I think they're generally considered decent for more affordable street use but don't really hold up that well on track or perform that well. They're great value but most F80/82/87 people that I've tracked with are running the MPSS, PS4S, Cup 2s, RS4, RE71 or NT01s, the latter 4 being the more common track tires.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by bentom2

You’re absolutely correct and get where I’m coming from.

I do need to put away the lap timer for a while and focus on skills vs speed. Speed as a focus for the last year or so has this nice self-reinforcing and motivating tangible result, so it is hard to step back, but long term is certainly worth it.

If you haven't done one before - I would definitely look into some kind of car control class. They can be excellent for building up the instincts & reflexes. I did one where they put the plastic donuts on the tires of a 300k mile Accord & scooted around the track at 20mph for two hours trying to keep in on track. Two of the best hours of track time I have had. Certainly improved my skill set - but just as important was the confidence it gave me to go to DSC off on my next track day.

Originally Posted by mr_lab_rat

Since we are chatting about tires I would like to share my misery as Canadian.

Tires in Canada are more expensive than in the USA. I'm struggling to justify buying track wheels.

I can get PS4S set in OEM size for about 1750 CAD. The RE71 are actually more money, Indy 500 are a 1350 CAD.

I know I can be faster on stickier tire but I'm having tons of fun on the OEM tires and with approximately 3 track days per year it would take several years for dedicated track wheels to pay for themselves.

Ouch, don't ever get into slicks with that kind of pricing!!!

[bentom2]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

If you haven't done one before - I would definitely look into some kind of car control class. They can be excellent for building up the instincts & reflexes. I did one where they put the plastic donuts on the tires of a 300k mile Accord & scooted around the track at 20mph for two hours trying to keep in on track. Two of the best hours of track time I have had. Certainly improved my skill set - but just as important was the confidence it gave me to go to DSC off on my next track day.

I did several of the car club (BMWCCA, etc) car control classes early in my career and have s trucked at a few more recently. All involved some level of wet skid pad. It was useful in making the connection between inputs and what the car will do when you exceed traction limits. In fact, recently an acquaintance that hosts private track days also added a wet skid pad and I learned a lot more on it. They’re also pretty fun.

https://youtu.be/EJOnB9RHO44

But the speeds are much different, and you aren’t getting the same variables as you might on a track. Off camber corners, crests, surface changes, etc.

I also did a half day at Dirtfish Rally School on a February day, in a torrential downpour, so lots of sliding around. Also fun and good experience. I chose a BRZ rather than the WRX so it would be more applicable to the M2. Same as the skid pad though, much different speeds. It did provide more variety of traction levels and corner types though.

But I haven’t done anything like what you’re describing on a full size track. Sounds like a great experience.

I think the Porsche Experience Center and M Driving schools include some low friction training elements. I’d like to do one or both after COVID blows over. I had intended to sign up for one of them this year.

A lot of the clubs here discourage turning DSC off, so it wasn’t until I got the M2 and hated how much it intervenes, even in MDM, that I even gave it much thought. My previous car was much more cooperative in its track mode, allowing throttle steering and a few degrees of slip angle, and was much more subtle when it did intervene, so I never gave it much thought. Euro MDM and M4 GTS coding have mostly gotten DSC out of the way, but I definitely can feel power being restrained at corner exit with it on, so now it feels like the next logical step in my progression as a driver is to do away with it altogether.

[M2joey]

In the end, heat is the killer. The RE71Rs wear fast in the heat and when they get too hot. If you can maintain a hot pressure of 34-36 or so "hot", they last much longer! I can go through a set of fronts in 3 days during the summer - no problem. The hot temps crack 40 and there almost isn't anything you can do about it. You just cannot drop the cold temp low enough without triggering a low temp warning, and who wants to drive slow. It is a give an take, put a few hard laps in and back off a lap or two.

The RE71Rs also like to "mild" initial heat cycle. The first session on new RE71Rs should be only a "warm up" session - don't get them hot! Then, let the tires completely cool down before the next session, if you can. Really helps their longevity.

Just attended a 3-day HPDE this past weekend with new RE71Rs on. The temps were cold in the mornings and cool in the afternoon, 50/60 degrees avg. Could maintain a hot temp of 35 on the nose. After three hard days (approx 10 lead-follow instructing sessions with students and 12 or so Open/Time Trial sessions), the tires look great! Easily 65% remaining with great all-around wear.

[CrashFL]

Originally Posted by M2joey

In the end, heat is the killer. The RE71Rs wear fast in the heat and when they get too hot. If you can maintain a hot pressure of 34-36 or so "hot", they last much longer! I can go through a set of fronts in 3 days during the summer - no problem. The hot temps crack 40 and there almost isn't anything you can do about it. You just cannot drop the cold temp low enough without triggering a low temp warning, and who wants to drive slow. It is a give an take, put a few hard laps in and back off a lap or two.

The RE71Rs also like to "mild" initial heat cycle. The first session on new RE71Rs should be only a "warm up" session - don't get them hot! Then, let the tires completely cool down before the next session, if you can. Really helps their longevity.

Just attended a 3-day HPDE this past weekend with new RE71Rs on. The temps were cold in the mornings and cool in the afternoon, 50/60 degrees avg. Could maintain a hot temp of 35 on the nose. After three hard days (approx 10 lead-follow instructing sessions with students and 12 or so Open/Time Trial sessions), the tires look great! Easily 65% remaining with great all-around wear.

That's great to know. It was in the upper 90s a couple weeks ago here. I pulled the TPMS sensors from my track wheels, so I can start at lower cold temps. Will keep the first heat cycle in mind for the next set. Would driving to the track on them do the trick?

And the last set saw hot pressures over 40 psi one session (started at 27 cold). While later I was able to read 36 hot, maybe the damage was already done.

I'm still fairly new to the track, so backing off a couple laps is tough— fortunately there's usually a Vette or 911 holding me up for awhile and it gives my car a chance to cool down a bit.... 🤣

[pal]

Originally Posted by M2C AW

+1..except only marginally increased life. Best part of the GYs is that they don't get greasy like the Bridgestones, and just get faster as they wear....for me anyway. Big kudos to GY on the SC3s.

I have 5 days on Supercar3s now - 255/40 front & 275/40 rear on 513M rims. Overall, I found them to land somewhere between RE71Rs and PS4S for dry grip, wet grip, ability to take heat and sidewall stiffness. If wet track days are your thing, PS4S cannot be beat; if ultimate lap times are your thing then the RE71R is up there. If you're looking for a middle of the road setup between grip, wear, wet and dry ability then the Supercar3 is a contender along with tires like the Direzza Star Specs, RS4s, NT-05s etc

Here is a picture of mine after 5 days on my stock M2 (stock camber as well) with RS29 pads and SRF fluid. Most sessions were driven with DSC Off.

[IMG]https://media.fotki.com/2v2HGWTwzxu6LVA.jpg[/IMG]

[Karmic Man]

Successor to the ever popular AD08R should be coming out soon...going to be exciting