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      08-16-2018, 09:26 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
How one can be socially liberal, and fiscally conservative
I responded to you in specific regard to that in another thread with no response, so perhaps this time you'll see it.

"I disagree with your premise but in Trump we have fiscal irresponsibility with the same result of "social liberalism" as you define it (increased spending). If you are into fiscal conservatism Trump is categorically NOT your guy.

Edit: This is the problem with broad definitions. To me, as a social liberal, I think of abortion rights, gay marriage, limited federal overreach into the personal lives of citizens, legal weed, and a variety of other items....not socialized healthcare, or open borders."


To add to that, I also see fiscal conservatism as fiscal responsibility. Deficit spending is OK in rough times, but when the economy is doing well (as it is now, and has been) we should see the deficit shrink....as we did in the latter Obama years. Seeing it explode now, along with slashed receipts = near the height of fiscal irresponsibility.
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      08-16-2018, 09:57 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
I responded to you in specific regard to that in another thread with no response, so perhaps this time you'll see it.

"I disagree with your premise but in Trump we have fiscal irresponsibility with the same result of "social liberalism" as you define it (increased spending). If you are into fiscal conservatism Trump is categorically NOT your guy.

Edit: This is the problem with broad definitions. To me, as a social liberal, I think of abortion rights, gay marriage, limited federal overreach into the personal lives of citizens, legal weed, and a variety of other items....not socialized healthcare, or open borders."


To add to that, I also see fiscal conservatism as fiscal responsibility. Deficit spending is OK in rough times, but when the economy is doing well (as it is now, and has been) we should see the deficit shrink....as we did in the latter Obama years. Seeing it explode now, along with slashed receipts = near the height of fiscal irresponsibility.
Well put as I was struggling with what kind of answer he was looking for as well.
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      08-16-2018, 11:11 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
How one can be socially liberal, and fiscally conservative
I responded to you in specific regard to that in another thread with no response, so perhaps this time you'll see it.

"I disagree with your premise but in Trump we have fiscal irresponsibility with the same result of "social liberalism" as you define it (increased spending). If you are into fiscal conservatism Trump is categorically NOT your guy.

Edit: This is the problem with broad definitions. To me, as a social liberal, I think of abortion rights, gay marriage, limited federal overreach into the personal lives of citizens, legal weed, and a variety of other items....not socialized healthcare, or open borders."


To add to that, I also see fiscal conservatism as fiscal responsibility. Deficit spending is OK in rough times, but when the economy is doing well (as it is now, and has been) we should see the deficit shrink....as we did in the latter Obama years. Seeing it explode now, along with slashed receipts = near the height of fiscal irresponsibility.
I agree - and said at the time he shouldn't have signed off on that spending.

But forget all that - if a new party was created, what sort of policies would be "fiscally conservative and socially liberal?"
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      08-16-2018, 11:58 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
I responded to you in specific regard to that in another thread with no response, so perhaps this time you'll see it.

"I disagree with your premise but in Trump we have fiscal irresponsibility with the same result of "social liberalism" as you define it (increased spending). If you are into fiscal conservatism Trump is categorically NOT your guy.

Edit: This is the problem with broad definitions. To me, as a social liberal, I think of abortion rights, gay marriage, limited federal overreach into the personal lives of citizens, legal weed, and a variety of other items....not socialized healthcare, or open borders."


To add to that, I also see fiscal conservatism as fiscal responsibility. Deficit spending is OK in rough times, but when the economy is doing well (as it is now, and has been) we should see the deficit shrink....as we did in the latter Obama years. Seeing it explode now, along with slashed receipts = near the height of fiscal irresponsibility.
I definitely get under the premise of this. Not everyone follows the whole package of what any party or person offers. There is always differing opinion on individual things.

I feel like it'd be too hard to have a ton of parties representing the spectrum of interests in the US so we end up picking one of two - usually the one we think is least worst.

I do think being liberal and being fiscally responsible is not mutually exclusive. Same as conservatives that do not believe in God and liberals who are against illegal immigration etc. Everyone likes to stereotype but the spectrum of people is quite diverse.
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      08-16-2018, 12:03 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I agree - and said at the time he shouldn't have signed off on that spending.

But forget all that - if a new party was created, what sort of policies would be "fiscally conservative and socially liberal?"
Oh wow, there's a ton of things that fall under that. Basically any socially liberal policy that doesn't cost any money would fall under that.

Things like gay marriage, weed legalization, abortion immediately come to mind. Many more things if you spend time to think of it.
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      08-16-2018, 02:14 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I agree - and said at the time he shouldn't have signed off on that spending.

But forget all that - if a new party was created, what sort of policies would be "fiscally conservative and socially liberal?"
Oh wow, there's a ton of things that fall under that. Basically any socially liberal policy that doesn't cost any money would fall under that.

Things like gay marriage, weed legalization, abortion immediately come to mind. Many more things if you spend time to think of it.
Legalized weed is enormously expensive to taxpayers. As is abortion. Gay marriage also.
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      08-16-2018, 02:18 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Legalized weed is enormously expensive to taxpayers. As is abortion. Gay marriage also.
Citation, please. On all 3.
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      08-16-2018, 03:40 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
I responded to you in specific regard to that in another thread with no response, so perhaps this time you'll see it.

"I disagree with your premise but in Trump we have fiscal irresponsibility with the same result of "social liberalism" as you define it (increased spending). If you are into fiscal conservatism Trump is categorically NOT your guy.

Edit: This is the problem with broad definitions. To me, as a social liberal, I think of abortion rights, gay marriage, limited federal overreach into the personal lives of citizens, legal weed, and a variety of other items....not socialized healthcare, or open borders."


To add to that, I also see fiscal conservatism as fiscal responsibility. Deficit spending is OK in rough times, but when the economy is doing well (as it is now, and has been) we should see the deficit shrink....as we did in the latter Obama years. Seeing it explode now, along with slashed receipts = near the height of fiscal irresponsibility.
Couldn't agree with you more.

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      12-06-2018, 07:01 PM   #229
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I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I don't think we are as far apart as you might think.

The name calling thing was a misunderstanding on my behalf. I thought you suggested I called people within our debate names, which I don't do. Yes, I called the politician in question a name, and then justified it, guilty as charged. FWIW, I feel he is well deserving of it, but that is besides the point. Moving on.

I don't see things only left or right, but it usually boils down to left or right, because that is how our system is set up. It's not like we have any other choice than to vote left or right, unless you want to waste your vote.
I grew up in Switzerland and like many other countries in Europe, they have many political parties, which we desperately need here also. So I understand what you mean, but again, with the given choices, what good would it do me to vote libertarian?

I do run a business, and have ran in to issues exporting stuff, which I brought up early on in this thread. It is one of the reasons I am supporting what Trump is doing. It seems pretty obvious to me, that the tariffs are just a way to get other countries to the negotiating table, and not a permanent solution. Short term it might hurt, yes, but long term it should benefit the US. Again, he's not the one that set up the current (bad) deals we have and he certainly does not get a lot of support from anyone, so he goes about things the way he did in the business world. Many seem to fault him for that and call it undiplomatic, but it isn't like politicians have a great track record running our country, so why not try something new? Maybe if the politicians in DC, the media and all those trying to frame him for something that isn't there, would get behind him, we'd have a fitting chance?

The way I see it, the US is the biggest consumer nation in the world, and we also have more resources than most other nations. In other words, we could be self sufficient if we needed to be, AND most other nations need us more than we need them, because we buy more of their stuff then they buy ours. Not that I think we should take advantage of that and stick it to them, but we certainly should not let them do it to us, when we hold a lot of the cards. So, I am willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt and take a chance on a trade war. My feeling is we'll come out ahead......eventually, and that is what matters in the end. If it meas a bit of short term pain, then so be it.

As far as the media goes. I feel that you are painting a pretty picture, and think that because there are some alternative news is available, it is a fair deal. The reality is that 6 corporations own 90% of all media outlets, and control the narrative. Let that sink in. Do you really think that the majority of this country seeks alternative news, or just listens to the daily dribble coming from 90% of the stations? Most of them believe it, because if 90% of the news says the same thing, then it must be true. So they believe the propaganda. Just look at what happened on election night. That was America waking up and the news outlets not understanding the world anymore. And they've been having a hissy fit ever since.

Anyway, like I said, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but not on the media.
a quick update on the " short term" pain.


The U.S. trade deficit in October soared to $55.5 billion, one of the highest levels in a decade, including the largest-ever deficits with China and Europe, according to a Commerce Department report released today.

President Donald Trump's tariffs on steel and aluminum imports and a wide range of Chinese goods have not narrowed the gap between imports and exports this year. The trade deficit in goods and services since January is $51 billion higher than over the same period in 2017, an 11 percent increase, the report showed.

The monthly deficits with China ($43.1 billion) and the EU ($17.6 billion) are the highest on record. And the October deficit specifically in goods (not including services) was $77 billion, also the largest ever recorded.

Trump has long vowed to close the gap between how much the U.S. buys from and sells to other countries. Narrowing the trade deficit with China is one of the administration's objectives for trade talks with Beijing over the next three months

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...europe-1047317
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      12-06-2018, 09:34 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
The U.S. trade deficit in October soared to $55.5 billion, one of the highest levels in a decade...
"One of" the highest levels in a decade? :

Sounds like someone really, really wants to say it is the highest level in a decade but the facts just aren't there so we'll just make it sound that way.
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      12-06-2018, 09:39 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
The U.S. trade deficit in October soared to $55.5 billion, one of the highest levels in a decade...
"One of" the highest levels in a decade? :
Sounds like someone really, really wants to say it is the highest level in a decade but the facts just aren't there so we'll just make it sound that way.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/06/inte...orts-rise.html


The U.S. trade deficit jumped to a 10-year high in October as soybean exports continued to fall and imports of consumer goods rose to a record high, suggesting the Trump administration's tariff-related measures to shrink the trade gap likely have been ineffective.

•The Commerce Department said on Thursday the trade deficit increased 1.7 percent to $55.5 billion, the highest level since October 2008.
•The trade gap has now widened for a five straight months. Data for September was revised to show the deficit rising to $54.6 billion instead of the previously reported $54.0 billion.


Trade subtracted 1.91 percentage points from GDP growth in the July-September quarter

" Trump administration's tariff-related measures to shrink the trade gap likely have been ineffective "

I agree.. on both counts.. a very generous way of putting it don't ya think? It's been a disaster so far.
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      12-06-2018, 09:49 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
The U.S. trade deficit in October soared to $55.5 billion, one of the highest levels in a decade...
"One of" the highest levels in a decade? :
Sounds like someone really, really wants to say it is the highest level in a decade but the facts just aren't there so we'll just make it sound that way.
Bet you won't find the commerce report to find out.


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/06/inte...orts-rise.html

•The Commerce Department said on Thursday the trade deficit increased 1.7 percent to $55.5 billion, the highest level since October 2008.
•The trade gap has now widened for a five straight months. Data for September was revised to show the deficit rising to $54.6 billion instead of the previously reported $54.0 billion.
Hey- if the deficit is indeed the highest in a decade, then please consider my post a critique of your choice of words. 😘
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      12-06-2018, 09:51 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Hey- if the deficit is indeed the highest in a decade, then please consider my post a critique of your choice of words. ��
I consider it a critique of the article's words... as they are not mine.
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      12-06-2018, 10:05 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Hey- if the deficit is indeed the highest in a decade, then please consider my post a critique of your choice of words. ��
I consider it a critique of the article's words... as they are not mine.
Fair enough.
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      12-26-2018, 12:06 PM   #235
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Quote:
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a quick update on the " short term" pain.


The U.S. trade deficit in October soared to $55.5 billion, one of the highest levels in a decade, including the largest-ever deficits with China and Europe, according to a Commerce Department report released today.

President Donald Trump's tariffs on steel and aluminum imports and a wide range of Chinese goods have not narrowed the gap between imports and exports this year. The trade deficit in goods and services since January is $51 billion higher than over the same period in 2017, an 11 percent increase, the report showed.

The monthly deficits with China ($43.1 billion) and the EU ($17.6 billion) are the highest on record. And the October deficit specifically in goods (not including services) was $77 billion, also the largest ever recorded.

Trump has long vowed to close the gap between how much the U.S. buys from and sells to other countries. Narrowing the trade deficit with China is one of the administration's objectives for trade talks with Beijing over the next three months

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...europe-1047317

Thanks for the update.

Yes, short term it does not apear to give the desired results, but to be fair, it took decades to get us here. Cleary Trump has brought a lot of manufacturing back and it made a huge comeback in 2018. It will take a while for it to all shake out and the dust to settle. Right now China and the EU are digging their heels in. Reagan did not crush the Soviet Union in a couple of years either, it took two terms and then some.

Not to throw a red herring here, but just look at the what the Fed is doing right now. For pretty much all of Obamas two terms they kept the interest rates low (many years at zero) and printed money like there was no tomorrow (QE1, 2 and on and on), yet the economy sputtered. Everyone said there will be hell to pay someday for all of that. So then Trump comes in, slashes regulations, tax cuts, renegotiates trade deals, gets the economy going (while congress, the media and half the country is fighting him tooht and nail), only to have the Fed come in now and kill it by raising interest rates over and over.
.
Don't get me wrong, I believe we do need to bring interest rates up agian, it isn't healty to have them at zero and to keep printing money, but the point is that all this stuff is complex and decades in the making, and to just show short term data to prove it isn't woriking means NOTHING. Because by that token it is all of Trumps fault the market is colapsing at the moment, when in reality we are now paying the price for infaltion created by Bush and Obama.

Last edited by norMcal; 12-26-2018 at 12:12 PM.
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      12-26-2018, 12:14 PM   #236
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^LOL to all of that. Trump is a failure and disaster. The data and trends supports it. You don't need to make excuses for the guy. He's trying to run the US like a business. It doesn't work that way and we and the world are paying a huge price now.
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      12-26-2018, 12:36 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norMcal View Post
Don't get me wrong, I believe we do need to bring interest rates up agian, it isn't healty to have them at zero and to keep printing money, but the point is that all this stuff is complex and decades in the making, and to just show short term data to prove it isn't woriking means NOTHING. .
The reason interest rates were almost zero and we did QE was because we were in the worst recession since the Great Depression. Those are tools the Fed can use to boost the economy. And like you said, the economy sputtered for a bit because, again like you point out, it takes some time for those actions to have an effect. Which they did. The economy was recovering just fine under Obama and it continued under Trump (until the unnecessary trade wars).

The Fed has to raise rates. When the economy is booming, that's smart fiscal policy. If another recession happens, and it will, the rates need to be up so you have somewhere to go down to. The market is partly freaking out because you can't threaten the Fed chairman because he's invoking fiscal policy that is necessary. Notice earlier this year when the Fed raised rates, the market spooked and recovered. Throw in some trade wars and trying to undermine our Fed, that's why the bottom is falling out currently. And both of those are on Trump.
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      12-26-2018, 01:01 PM   #238
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The reason interest rates were almost zero and we did QE was because we were in the worst recession since the Great Depression. Those are tools the Fed can use to boost the economy. And like you said, the economy sputtered for a bit because, again like you point out, it takes some time for those actions to have an effect. Which they did. The economy was recovering just fine under Obama and it continued under Trump (until the unnecessary trade wars).

The Fed has to raise rates. When the economy is booming, that's smart fiscal policy. If another recession happens, and it will, the rates need to be up so you have somewhere to go down to. The market is partly freaking out because you can't threaten the Fed chairman because he's invoking fiscal policy that is necessary. Notice earlier this year when the Fed raised rates, the market spooked and recovered. Throw in some trade wars and trying to undermine our Fed, that's why the bottom is falling out currently. And both of those are on Trump.
BINGO, but Trumpsters will never see it that way. It's Obama's fault for having the biggest market rebound ever and the Democrats fault for not giving Trump his wall.
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      12-26-2018, 04:14 PM   #239
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^LOL to all of that. Trump is a failure and disaster. The data and trends supports it. You don't need to make excuses for the guy. He's trying to run the US like a business. It doesn't work that way and we and the world are paying a huge price now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
The reason interest rates were almost zero and we did QE was because we were in the worst recession since the Great Depression. Those are tools the Fed can use to boost the economy. And like you said, the economy sputtered for a bit because, again like you point out, it takes some time for those actions to have an effect. Which they did. The economy was recovering just fine under Obama and it continued under Trump (until the unnecessary trade wars).

The Fed has to raise rates. When the economy is booming, that's smart fiscal policy. If another recession happens, and it will, the rates need to be up so you have somewhere to go down to. The market is partly freaking out because you can't threaten the Fed chairman because he's invoking fiscal policy that is necessary. Notice earlier this year when the Fed raised rates, the market spooked and recovered. Throw in some trade wars and trying to undermine our Fed, that's why the bottom is falling out currently. And both of those are on Trump.

Keep watching CNN, or whatever anti Trump propaganda. Kool aid alert.

The economy sucked under Obama. Slowest recover EVER!!!!! But don't take my word for it, here is quote from Forbes magazine:
The Obama recovery of the last seven years remains the worst in postwar American history. Average gross domestic product (GDP) growth since the bottom of the recession in 2009 was barely above 2.1% per year. The average since 1949 is well above 4% per year during the previous 10 expansions. This result is not just bad, it is catastrophic.

Under Trump GPD in 2018 was 4.2%, or double that of Obamas.
Currently we are having record low unemployement, stock market was on fire from the day Trump got elected until the day the Dems got majority in the house back and the Feds raised interest rates numberous times.

And BTW, QE pretty much never stopped under Obama, it went on for his whole presidency. Fed pretty much printed $3.6 Trillion to help the economy, because everyting Obama did was a disaster. The Dems don't get it.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...9QEwAHoECAYQBg
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      12-26-2018, 08:49 PM   #240
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^LOL to all of that. Trump is a failure and disaster. The data and trends supports it. You don't need to make excuses for the guy. He's trying to run the US like a business. It doesn't work that way and we and the world are paying a huge price now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
The reason interest rates were almost zero and we did QE was because we were in the worst recession since the Great Depression. Those are tools the Fed can use to boost the economy. And like you said, the economy sputtered for a bit because, again like you point out, it takes some time for those actions to have an effect. Which they did. The economy was recovering just fine under Obama and it continued under Trump (until the unnecessary trade wars).

The Fed has to raise rates. When the economy is booming, that's smart fiscal policy. If another recession happens, and it will, the rates need to be up so you have somewhere to go down to. The market is partly freaking out because you can't threaten the Fed chairman because he's invoking fiscal policy that is necessary. Notice earlier this year when the Fed raised rates, the market spooked and recovered. Throw in some trade wars and trying to undermine our Fed, that's why the bottom is falling out currently. And both of those are on Trump.

Keep watching CNN, or whatever anti Trump propaganda. Kool aid alert.

The economy sucked under Obama. Slowest recover EVER!!!!! But don't take my word for it, here is quote from Forbes magazine:
The Obama recovery of the last seven years remains the worst in postwar American history. Average gross domestic product (GDP) growth since the bottom of the recession in 2009 was barely above 2.1% per year. The average since 1949 is well above 4% per year during the previous 10 expansions. This result is not just bad, it is catastrophic.

Under Trump GPD in 2018 was 4.2%, or double that of Obamas.
Currently we are having record low unemployement, stock market was on fire from the day Trump got elected until the day the Dems got majority in the house back and the Feds raised interest rates numberous times.

And BTW, QE pretty much never stopped under Obama, it went on for his whole presidency. Fed pretty much printed $3.6 Trillion to help the economy, because everyting Obama did was a disaster. The Dems don't get it.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2017/11/24/104861126-FED_Balance_Sheet_-_stil_UPDATEDl.720x405.jpg?v%3D1511526375&imgrefur l=https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/the-fed-launched-qe-nine-years-ago--these-four-charts-show-its-impact.html&h=405&w=720&tbnid=ULTTkBJdn88PtM:&q=ho w+much+quantitative+easing+since+2008&tbnh=119&tbn w=214&usg=AI4_-kRtLdhlYM8HjFsqXpBSg5Fo7XKA9w&vet=12ahUKEwih87uVtL 7fAhVOKa0KHSC_BpEQ9QEwAHoECAYQBg..i&docid=ZvqEJr_c teTp5M&client=firefox-b-1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwih87uVtL7fAhVOKa0KHSC_BpEQ9QEwAH oECAYQBg
Ok, which is it? So let me get this straight, somehow Trump's policies that didn't even exist yet resulted in instant fiscal prosperity. Fiscal policies, that even you admitted take time to effect the economy.

GDP growth exceeded 3% 8 times under Obama. Not bad considering the hole we had to dig ourselves out of.

Oh, and you still haven't refuted anything I said about how fiscal policy works.
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      12-27-2018, 09:54 AM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Ok, which is it? So let me get this straight, somehow Trump's policies that didn't even exist yet resulted in instant fiscal prosperity. Fiscal policies, that even you admitted take time to effect the economy.

GDP growth exceeded 3% 8 times under Obama. Not bad considering the hole we had to dig ourselves out of.

Oh, and you still haven't refuted anything I said about how fiscal policy works.
I said average yearly GDP, which still holds true what the Forbes article states, worst post war recovery EVER! So glad he managed a few quarters of 3%, after the fed injected Trillions of dolloars, a luxury Trump is not having.

The reason things got better the moment Trump got elected, is because of consumer confidence. If you know anything about investing, then you know that the stock market always looks about 6 months ahead. Consumers and business owners imidieatly felt more confidence once he got elected (for good reason), which is why the stock market imidietly took off. Then once in office, the cutting of red tape, slashing taxes, and renegotiating deals added to it, greating higher GDP and a booming economy, for which Obama now wants credit for. I'm a business owner and the economy sucked for us for 8 years.

As far as trade deals go, those take time to take effect. The revised NAFTA deal will bear fruit, but it takes time for many of the the agreements to kick in, so give it time.

Back to your original point, of the trade deficit being worse. We don't know how bad it would have gotten had we done nothing. The fact is that the trade deficit have continued to grow for many decades now, it's like a giant vessel changing directions. The economy on the other hand is somehting that can be improved rather quickly as Trump proved (without injecting Trillions printed money I might add).

One more thing regarding the tarifs. Ever care to check to see how China is doing since we implemented them? Shanghai Index was down 30% from March to October. Sooner or later they will have to oblige when they are huring that much.

I'm done here. I just responded because you quoted me. My manufacturing business was up 75% this year, so I see the benefits of the current adminstration first hand, as do many of other business I am dealing with.
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      12-27-2018, 12:22 PM   #242
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I happy things are working out for you.

You still seem to have no idea how fiscal policy works though.

Yep, the market sure didn't like Obama either
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