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      03-10-2020, 01:31 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by nearwater4me View Post
You are correct and that’s why most HAS kits come with a shorter bump stop.
OK, but surely that would need to be a height adjustable bump-stop... It's only going to be correct for one height isn't it?

I guess if the spring is linear, then the spring rate isn't going to be different at the time the bump-stop comes into play, it's just going to be earlier. The bump-stop then becomes part of tuning?

Longer bump-stop means flatter cornering because the spring rate increases once the bump-stop is used. If it's too long, you might get a rough ride, if it's too short, you might get too much roll in corners?

All this begs the question... what does this mean for the MSS setup? Does it include a shorter bump stop, or is the kit intended for stock ride height?
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      03-11-2020, 01:08 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
All this begs the question... what does this mean for the MSS setup? Does it include a shorter bump stop, or is the kit intended for stock ride height?
So I had a call with MSS this morning, and I think I spoke with William Blankson. I asked him about the MSS kit and bump stops, and he told me that the kit does include shorter bump stops, and these are expected to be used with the kit.

I'm really tempted to go with this kit now... the only thing holding me back is deciding whether I should spend the ~$900 on the CFRP strut section, or these springs...
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      03-11-2020, 01:27 AM   #69
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
All this begs the question... what does this mean for the MSS setup? Does it include a shorter bump stop, or is the kit intended for stock ride height?
So I had a call with MSS this morning, and I think I spoke with William Blankson. I asked him about the MSS kit and bump stops, and he told me that the kit does include shorter bump stops, and these are expected to be used with the kit.

I'm really tempted to go with this kit now... the only thing holding me back is deciding whether I should spend the ~$900 on the CFRP strut section, or these springs...
*whispers* springsssss


So that we have more first hand experience from detailed forum contributors such as yourself
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      03-11-2020, 06:20 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by nezil View Post
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Originally Posted by nezil View Post
all this begs the question... What does this mean for the mss setup? Does it include a shorter bump stop, or is the kit intended for stock ride height?
so i had a call with mss this morning, and i think i spoke with william blankson. I asked him about the mss kit and bump stops, and he told me that the kit does include shorter bump stops, and these are expected to be used with the kit.

I'm really tempted to go with this kit now... The only thing holding me back is deciding whether i should spend the ~$900 on the cfrp strut section, or these springs...
*whispers* springsssss


so that we have more first hand experience from detailed forum contributors such as yourself :d :d :d
+1 😂👍
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      03-11-2020, 02:58 PM   #71
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Well the strut has made a difference to my car and not just in corners. I'd be looking to get it done regardless. It's that good with it installed.

So why not do that first see how you like the car then look at springs after?
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      03-11-2020, 09:07 PM   #72
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I am kind of considering between this and the Dinan HAS
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      03-11-2020, 10:09 PM   #73
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My kit has arrived. Getting fitted on Wednesday and going for a 15mm drop all round.
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      03-11-2020, 10:46 PM   #74
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I reached out to MSS this morning again to get a copy of their installation guide. The guide they sent is somewhat generic, which isn't a problem necessarily, but a few things concern me about their kit.

The front setup looks great. They provide a replacement bump stop, a shock bump cap for the bump-stop to contact with, a new rubber pad for the flat bottom of the adjuster, obviously the spring and adjuster, and a pair of protective sleeves that go over the adjusters.

The rear is where I have questions... The instructions say to remove the OEM spring seats both upper and lower, and to replace these with flat rubber slip mats on the upper only. The lower end of the spring just sits directly on the lower control arm without any rubber at all. No rear bump stops or shock bump caps are supplied either.

My understanding, is that as you lower the car, the clearance between the bump stop clearance is reduced. More bump stop clearance improves comfort, but also has a negative effect on handling. Less bump stop clearance results in a harsh ride. The whole USP of the MSS kit is their trick stacked spring setup in the rear. If a customer installs and goes for 30mm maximum drop, the M2 could very well be riding on the bump stops at that point.

I emailed MSS and asked them this question, and was told:
The front can be lowered to 30mm +/-3mm so the rears should be adjusted to be 5mm higher than the fronts thus will sit 25mm, so the rear stock bump stop therefore dose not need changing hence why we only provide the fronts.

May I just also add that we do extensive development on all products before we release to the public so want we release is the most effective set for that model.
They did ask me not to share the install guide in case it gets updated, and I've agreed; they'll happily share it if you email them.

Please understand that I'm not intending to be critical of the MSS kit at all. I just like to do a very thorough investigation before I purchase.

The concept of the MSS kit is exactly what I'm looking for - more controlled and compliant ride, with improved handling, and the option to lower between stock and -30mm.

The lack of a rear bump-stop modification leaves me feeling that if the MSS kit is used at stock height, you'll get everything they claim, but if lowered, particularly to maximum, you'll get a pretty rough ride.

I was considering being a guinea pig, but I'm now super excited to hear about OzWoz' experience. Please do let us know!
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      03-11-2020, 11:30 PM   #75
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No worries Nezil, I'll post back. It will only be fast-road opinion, but from the limited feedback from Joe Achilles, and the trackwork video that Evolve shared, I'm quietly confident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
I reached out to MSS this morning again to get a copy of their installation guide. The guide they sent is somewhat generic, which isn't a problem necessarily, but a few things concern me about their kit.

The front setup looks great. They provide a replacement bump stop, a shock bump cap for the bump-stop to contact with, a new rubber pad for the flat bottom of the adjuster, obviously the spring and adjuster, and a pair of protective sleeves that go over the adjusters.

The rear is where I have questions... The instructions say to remove the OEM spring seats both upper and lower, and to replace these with flat rubber slip mats on the upper only. The lower end of the spring just sits directly on the lower control arm without any rubber at all. No rear bump stops or shock bump caps are supplied either.

My understanding, is that as you lower the car, the clearance between the bump stop clearance is reduced. More bump stop clearance improves comfort, but also has a negative effect on handling. Less bump stop clearance results in a harsh ride. The whole USP of the MSS kit is their trick stacked spring setup in the rear. If a customer installs and goes for 30mm maximum drop, the M2 could very well be riding on the bump stops at that point.

I emailed MSS and asked them this question, and was told:
The front can be lowered to 30mm +/-3mm so the rears should be adjusted to be 5mm higher than the fronts thus will sit 25mm, so the rear stock bump stop therefore dose not need changing hence why we only provide the fronts.

May I just also add that we do extensive development on all products before we release to the public so want we release is the most effective set for that model.
They did ask me not to share the install guide in case it gets updated, and I've agreed; they'll happily share it if you email them.

Please understand that I'm not intending to be critical of the MSS kit at all. I just like to do a very thorough investigation before I purchase.

The concept of the MSS kit is exactly what I'm looking for - more controlled and compliant ride, with improved handling, and the option to lower between stock and -30mm.

The lack of a rear bump-stop modification leaves me feeling that if the MSS kit is used at stock height, you'll get everything they claim, but if lowered, particularly to maximum, you'll get a pretty rough ride.

I was considering being a guinea pig, but I'm now super excited to hear about OzWoz' experience. Please do let us know!
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      03-11-2020, 11:31 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by OzWoz View Post
No worries Nezil, I'll post back. It will only be fast-road opinion, but from the limited feedback from Joe Achilles, and the trackwork video that Evolve shared, I'm quietly confident.
Fast road is my main concern as well @OzWoz, thanks for being the guiniea pig!
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      03-12-2020, 12:13 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
I am kind of considering between this and the Dinan HAS
This is quite interesting as an option as well. There are more parts because the spring perch needs to be replaced, but it too uses the stock shocks.

One thing I really like about the Dinan kit is the detail they go into bump-stop clearance. They supply the F10 M5 front bump-stop with their kit, and a different bump stop that I can't identify for the rear. These are presumably not as long as the stock M2 / M3 / M4 part to allow for their suggested lowering amount, as well as packers to make the bump-stop longer for a lower drop if desired. The installation instructions go into quite some detail about setting ride hide and bump-stop clearance, which is reassuring and what I'd expect from a well thought out solution.
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      03-20-2020, 04:56 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Fast road is my main concern as well @OzWoz, thanks for being the guiniea pig!
As promised, here is a very preliminary review. I'm not overly technical and didn't oversee the install, just asked questions of my tech'.

Before you get too judgy on the ride height (it probably looks stock to those outside Australia!), I found out we have a "bad road" package on our cars which adds 10mm to the height.https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...ral/1VnYgjyGlB I went for a 15mm drop because of driveway clearence concerns, but in hindsight should have gone for 20mm which I may do in the near future.

The kit came with bump stops, 2 rubber slip mats that are supposed to replace rubber spring seats in the rear and "eliminate resonant road noise" ..my tech scratched his head on that one as he couldn't see what the mats did or why they were included as the standard seats were fine.

My specialists are a BMW performance shop here in Sydney, with ex-BMW techs working for them. The kit got a general thumbs up from them for its quality, as they had not seen one here before. They did make one observation which I will pass back to Evolve (Imran...if you're reading this please chime in). Either end of the standard springs are slightly curved to sit in their spring perches. The MSS ones apparently are not. They seat well with no issues and certainly aren't going to move anywhere, but the installer pointed it out.

On to the road test. I have minimal mileage-time (maybe 100?) so take this as preliminary, but I could feel no difference in comfort to the stock springs. That is a major compliment to MSS and Evolve as I've ridden in Eibach and KW equipped cars, which felt OK to me comfort-wise, but tended to bounce over rougher roads. We have MANY rough raods here in Sydney, as does the UK, and this kit handles them like a pro. It's clear to me that developing the kit in these crappy road conditions has paid dividends.

My early morning circuit / coffee run has a variety of off-camber turns, dips, variable tarmac and potholes. I've learned to drive with these conditions, and depending what mode I'm in (generally Sport), I know exactly when to expect the traction light to start blinking at me. Here's the thing...it's no longer blinking at me. The rear is finding traction where on stock (and I'd imagine on stiffer rate springs) the tyres where leaving the road just enough to trigger the traction control. Now, they just grip and go. Very impressive and it's repeatable on roads you know well.

Spacers are the last part of the puzzle. Even with such a mild drop, the tyres (especially the fronts) are visibly recessed. I'm toying with 10mm all round. Like most things fun, Australia considers these illegal, but hey ho.

I've just found out I no longer have a Flickr account for some reason, so can't upload photos. If you have any recommendations of hosts, I'll try and add some pics later.

Cheers and beers
Woz
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      03-20-2020, 06:41 PM   #79
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Thanks woz.

What's low I.e 30mph handling and ride like?

Do you have more confidence in the car? Does it flow over the road better?

Is it boring not micro managing the chassis or do you enjoy it?

Thanks
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      03-21-2020, 06:53 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzWoz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Fast road is my main concern as well @OzWoz, thanks for being the guiniea pig!
As promised, here is a very preliminary review. I'm not overly technical and didn't oversee the install, just asked questions of my tech'.

Before you get too judgy on the ride height (it probably looks stock to those outside Australia!), I found out we have a "bad road" package on our cars which adds 10mm to the height.https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f87-m2-competition-cou/repair-manuals/31-front-axle-front-suspension/31-00-front-axle-in-general/1VnYgjyGlB I went for a 15mm drop because of driveway clearence concerns, but in hindsight should have gone for 20mm which I may do in the near future.

The kit came with bump stops, 2 rubber slip mats that are supposed to replace rubber spring seats in the rear and "eliminate resonant road noise" ..my tech scratched his head on that one as he couldn't see what the mats did or why they were included as the standard seats were fine.

My specialists are a BMW performance shop here in Sydney, with ex-BMW techs working for them. The kit got a general thumbs up from them for its quality, as they had not seen one here before. They did make one observation which I will pass back to Evolve (Imran...if you're reading this please chime in). Either end of the standard springs are slightly curved to sit in their spring perches. The MSS ones apparently are not. They seat well with no issues and certainly aren't going to move anywhere, but the installer pointed it out.

On to the road test. I have minimal mileage-time (maybe 100?) so take this as preliminary, but I could feel no difference in comfort to the stock springs. That is a major compliment to MSS and Evolve as I've ridden in Eibach and KW equipped cars, which felt OK to me comfort-wise, but tended to bounce over rougher roads. We have MANY rough raods here in Sydney, as does the UK, and this kit handles them like a pro. It's clear to me that developing the kit in these crappy road conditions has paid dividends.

My early morning circuit / coffee run has a variety of off-camber turns, dips, variable tarmac and potholes. I've learned to drive with these conditions, and depending what mode I'm in (generally Sport), I know exactly when to expect the traction light to start blinking at me. Here's the thing...it's no longer blinking at me. The rear is finding traction where on stock (and I'd imagine on stiffer rate springs) the tyres where leaving the road just enough to trigger the traction control. Now, they just grip and go. Very impressive and it's repeatable on roads you know well.

Spacers are the last part of the puzzle. Even with such a mild drop, the tyres (especially the fronts) are visibly recessed. I'm toying with 10mm all round. Like most things fun, Australia considers these illegal, but hey ho.

I've just found out I no longer have a Flickr account for some reason, so can't upload photos. If you have any recommendations of hosts, I'll try and add some pics later.

Cheers and beers
Woz
Thanks for your review! Imgur.com is an easy image host
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      03-21-2020, 04:11 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3t3p View Post
Thanks woz.

What's low I.e 30mph handling and ride like?

Do you have more confidence in the car? Does it flow over the road better?

Is it boring not micro managing the chassis or do you enjoy it?

Thanks
No problem 3t3p. Low speed handling at those speeds is (to me) indistiguishable from stock. Certainly no float or other weirdness.

This could be a placebo (due to spending cash!) but some of the potholes that I can't avoid on regular routes are not transmitting into the cabin as much. Like I say...that could be placebo, but its certainly as good as stock.

The traction the car can now put down out of corners is markedly better, and along with the stock-feeling comfort, that was was my expectation of the kit, so job done!






Last edited by OzWoz; 03-21-2020 at 04:19 PM..
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      03-22-2020, 06:30 PM   #82
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So feels quite OEM+ from your description?

Certainly no wallowing.

Is it silent in operation?
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      03-22-2020, 06:53 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzWoz View Post
I found out we have a "bad road" package on our cars which adds 10mm to the height. https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...ral/1VnYgjyGlB
This is really interesting. Does a VIN decode show this up for your car as well?

I'm wondering how the 'bad road package' actually achieves this lift. The stock suspension has no adjustment, so what exactly has been changed? Do you have different parts in your suspension from the rest of the world?
Quote:
The kit came with bump stops...
The fact that there are no replacement rear bump stops is what worries me the most about this kit. If you're going to lower, you loose travel in the shock before the bump stop hits, so you either end up with less travel, or you replace the bump stops to regain that travel. It is totally possible that you might increase the spring rate to avoid hitting the bump stops I suppose, and a higher spring rate spring would lead to a lower overall spring rate if the stock suspension was engaging the bump stops all the time. I guess I'm thinking aloud, but that could work, even with less travel due to lowering.

Stiffer springs usually results in less grip, but if the car is engaging the bump stops frequently, a stiffer spring may result in an overall lower spring rate, if that makes sense.
Quote:
...2 rubber slip mats that are supposed to replace rubber spring seats in the rear and "eliminate resonant road noise" ..my tech scratched his head on that one as he couldn't see what the mats did or why they were included as the standard seats were fine.

My specialists are a BMW performance shop here in Sydney, with ex-BMW techs working for them. The kit got a general thumbs up from them for its quality, as they had not seen one here before. They did make one observation which I will pass back to Evolve (Imran...if you're reading this please chime in). Either end of the standard springs are slightly curved to sit in their spring perches. The MSS ones apparently are not. They seat well with no issues and certainly aren't going to move anywhere, but the installer pointed it out.
I think you've answered your question in your tech's comment. The rear MSS springs are made with a flat top and bottom. I don't think the stock ones are, so the mounts wouldn't fit correctly perhaps? Mounting the black spring for the rear directly to the lower control arm without any rubber doesn't seem right to me, but that's what the installation instructions call for.
Quote:
On to the road test. I have minimal mileage-time (maybe 100?) so take this as preliminary, but I could feel no difference in comfort to the stock springs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzWoz View Post
Low speed handling at those speeds is (to me) indistiguishable from stock. Certainly no float or other weirdness.

This could be a placebo (due to spending cash!) but some of the potholes that I can't avoid on regular routes are not transmitting into the cabin as much. Like I say...that could be placebo, but its certainly as good as stock.
I think these last few comments are a good summary of what I was expecting re. comfort. Watching the EVOLVE video again, the chart they show has large excursions of movement for big bumps, but the smaller bumps look identical to me. The video from Joe A. has him driving down some really bad roads that would certainly be testing the long excursion behaviour rather than the typical small <30 mph comfort.
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Last edited by Nezil; 03-22-2020 at 07:07 PM..
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      03-22-2020, 07:06 PM   #84
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So I'm no suspension expert, but I'm starting to see a trend...

When the OG M2 first came out, one of the first suspension upgrades available was the Dinan kit which re-uses the stock struts just like MSS, and replaces the springs with a stiffer spring rate. Dinan replaces both the front and rear bump stops with shorter BMW OEM parts from other vehicles

MSS doesn't tell us their spring rates, but we do know that they replace the fronts bump-stops with their own, and keeps the stock rears.

Those that drove the Dinan kit commented on improved comfort, despite the fact that the springs were actually stiffer. MSS now claims that lowering is possible with increased comfort and grip, and that's what OzWoz is finding. The comfort is not in the low suspension travel region, but more for bigger bumps where the bump stop would be engaged in the stock setup.

The trend I think we might be seeing is that it's possible to improve comfort by using more of the spring rather than the bump stop. If a system can be designed to allow more travel with the spring before the bump stop comes in to play, or a bump stop with a more progressive travel, comfort will improve.

The only thing I'm struggling with is the added grip. Softer suspension would achieve that, and that might be possible if the rear bump stop were changed to allow for more travel than stock before engagement, even with a higher spring rate, but without changing the bump stop, lowering reduces travel, a stiffer spring could slow bump stop engagement but in order to achieve that, the result would need to be stiffer than stock and therefore reduce grip.

One possibility is that MSS' trick multi-spring setup is creating a progressive system where a soft initial spring provides more grip with low excursion, and then the second spring is really very stiff preventing bump-stop engagement. If the weight transfer on acceleration of the M2 is relatively small, this small amount of soft spring rate travel might be enough to improve grip?!?

I'd love to see a Go-Pro in the rear wheel well during a drive!
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      03-22-2020, 07:30 PM   #85
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The other curious thing about the MSS kit is that the installation instructions state:
Quote:
Set the ride height to sit 5mm higher than the fronts when measured from fender edge to wheel hub centre.
Please be aware that this is a MUST DO.
and
Quote:
The rear axel ride height should be set to at least 5mm higher than the front axel ride height when measured as per page 3 of the latest version of the 'MSS INFO for Installer' guide. This is a KEY step.
I measured the ride height (as described above; fender edge to wheel hub centre) of my stock car, and got the following:
  • Front: 365mm
  • Rear: 360mm
So my car in stock configuration is 5mm lower at the rear... Does making the rear 5mm higher than the front shift the load so that the rear is less likely to hit the bump stop?

Is your car 5mm higher at the rear OzWoz?
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Thevesh30.50
      03-23-2020, 10:41 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
I'm wondering how the 'bad road package' actually achieves this lift. The stock suspension has no adjustment, so what exactly has been changed? Do you have different parts in your suspension from the rest of the world?
The "bad road package" offered in some markets (and standard in some of those) has a 10mm longer front spring, but the rear spring is the same. The spring rate is the same as the normal height springs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
Those that drove the Dinan kit commented on improved comfort, despite the fact that the springs were actually stiffer. MSS now claims that lowering is possible with increased comfort and grip, and that's what OzWoz is finding. The comfort is not in the low suspension travel region, but more for bigger bumps where the bump stop would be engaged in the stock setup.

The trend I think we might be seeing is that it's possible to improve comfort by using more of the spring rather than the bump stop. If a system can be designed to allow more travel with the spring before the bump stop comes in to play, or a bump stop with a more progressive travel, comfort will improve.

The only thing I'm struggling with is the added grip. Softer suspension would achieve that, and that might be possible if the rear bump stop were changed to allow for more travel than stock before engagement, even with a higher spring rate, but without changing the bump stop, lowering reduces travel, a stiffer spring could slow bump stop engagement but in order to achieve that, the result would need to be stiffer than stock and therefore reduce grip.

One possibility is that MSS' trick multi-spring setup is creating a progressive system where a soft initial spring provides more grip with low excursion, and then the second spring is really very stiff preventing bump-stop engagement. If the weight transfer on acceleration of the M2 is relatively small, this small amount of soft spring rate travel might be enough to improve grip?!?
One thing to remember is that springs in series (like MSS does) have an effective spring rate less than that of the individual springs themselves, k = (k1*k2)/(k1+k2). So even though they're using "stiffer" springs, we really don't know what the effective rate is.

Additionally, comfort can be achieved with a stiffer overall spring by reducing the damping factor. If you have a damper with a fixed damping curve, going to a higher spring rate will automatically reduce your damping factor. This is likely part of the reason why Dinan's kit feels more comfortable, because they've lowered the damping. Dampers are what transmit harshness.
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      03-26-2020, 09:31 PM   #87
nearwater4me
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Thanks for the initial feedback, OzWoz.
I’m still contemplating which HAS kit to go with and this review was helpful in gathering user reviews for different kits.
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      03-26-2020, 09:34 PM   #88
nearwater4me
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
So I'm no suspension expert, but I'm starting to see a trend...

When the OG M2 first came out, one of the first suspension upgrades available was the Dinan kit which re-uses the stock struts just like MSS, and replaces the springs with a stiffer spring rate. Dinan replaces both the front and rear bump stops with shorter BMW OEM parts from other vehicles

MSS doesn't tell us their spring rates, but we do know that they replace the fronts bump-stops with their own, and keeps the stock rears.

Those that drove the Dinan kit commented on improved comfort, despite the fact that the springs were actually stiffer. MSS now claims that lowering is possible with increased comfort and grip, and that's what OzWoz is finding. The comfort is not in the low suspension travel region, but more for bigger bumps where the bump stop would be engaged in the stock setup.

The trend I think we might be seeing is that it's possible to improve comfort by using more of the spring rather than the bump stop. If a system can be designed to allow more travel with the spring before the bump stop comes in to play, or a bump stop with a more progressive travel, comfort will improve.

The only thing I'm struggling with is the added grip. Softer suspension would achieve that, and that might be possible if the rear bump stop were changed to allow for more travel than stock before engagement, even with a higher spring rate, but without changing the bump stop, lowering reduces travel, a stiffer spring could slow bump stop engagement but in order to achieve that, the result would need to be stiffer than stock and therefore reduce grip.

One possibility is that MSS' trick multi-spring setup is creating a progressive system where a soft initial spring provides more grip with low excursion, and then the second spring is really very stiff preventing bump-stop engagement. If the weight transfer on acceleration of the M2 is relatively small, this small amount of soft spring rate travel might be enough to improve grip?!?

I'd love to see a Go-Pro in the rear wheel well during a drive!
You say as if the suspension rides on the bump stop all the time...
The top hat does not hit the bump stop unless the travel is most extreme (like hitting a huge bump or pot hole).
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