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      10-10-2018, 02:56 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
M4 CS testing vs M2 CS testing...(not a CSL).
M2 just has blank white vinyl wrap covering parts, instead of the standard camo vinyl.
[PICTURES]
Couple more of rear, with CS spoiler.


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      10-10-2018, 02:57 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
M240i has B58.
That’s what I meant .
S58 is based on the B58
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      10-10-2018, 03:06 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Aboen View Post
That’s what I meant .
S58 is based on the B58
X3M/X4M then G80 M3 then G82 M4...then only then will S58 see other cars. Most likely next in line, will be the next gen G87 M2.
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      10-10-2018, 03:13 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
X3M/X4M then G80 M3 then G82 M4...then only then will S58 see other cars. Most likely next in line, will be the next gen G87 M2.
Yeah - that makes sense
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      10-10-2018, 03:20 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by bobloblaw View Post
I never understood these kind of "weight saving" things in cars like the CS. If you're going all the way with it, then cool. It just doesn't make sense to reduce comfort and practicality to save like 10 pounds in a car like that. A thinner armrest without a cubby and door handle loops don't even make the car feel more "special" IMO.
Door pull straps: because race car !

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      10-10-2018, 03:52 AM   #138
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BMW M2 CSL, All M performance Carbon body parts by default. Optional CCB, i wonder about the interior though. Back Seat delete. Recaro' s in the front. Etc...
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      10-10-2018, 05:45 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Ehhhh.....that wing is way too much for my tastes - I don't even like it on a GT3, much less the entry level M car.

Also, I don't equate big wing with aggressiveness....

The E46 CSL didn't have anything like that, so no reason to believe we would expect to see a huge eyesore on this car, be it a CS or CSL.
In Paul's defense, while the E46 CSL didn't have an outlandish wing, the original E9 CSL was known as the "Batmobile" for no reason other than its radical aerodynamic wings, quite the opposite of what we would call humble.

[IMG]https://img.favcars.com/bmw/e9/bmw_e...papers_1_b.jpg[/IMG]


[IMG]https://img.favcars.com/bmw/e9/bmw_e...ctures_1_b.jpg[/IMG]

That being said, I agree that the M2 in its current form would not look pretty or aggressive with a wing of that stature.
But of course, if aerodynamics does necessitate a big wing, then so-be-it.

"Form follows function" are good words to live by when it comes to developing something as serious as a car bearing the coveted CSL moniker and I trust that BMW M (and M Design) have the ability to integrate it into a brilliant, aggressive design, provided they don't cut corners!
that's the actual race car you're posting. The road going 3.0 CSL was far humbler in appearance. Totally different appearance. There were options to make the road going CSL a bit more "accessorized" which brought it closer to the race car but still less outlandish than the racing version...

Also remember we are in the 70s then; so chrome fender flares didn't seem as crazy particularly after the dramatically overstyled 50s. The race car you posted had much wider fenders...

See below for the 2 varying aesthetics of the road going E9 CSL
Attached Images
  
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      10-10-2018, 06:38 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
that's the actual race car you're posting. The road going 3.0 CSL was far humbler in appearance. Totally different appearance. There were options to make the road going CSL a bit more "accessorized" which brought it closer to the race car but still less outlandish than the racing version although much more chromed! Lol
I'm well-aware of what I posted, and it doesn't change what I said one bit as the road going versions of the 3.0 CSL (3.2L models) from JUL 1973 onwards were delivered with the bodywork to comply with homologation rules (just not physically installed from the factory due to road regulations).

It's pretty well-documented from all the witnesses and commentary from that era that the E9 CSL became known in popular automotive culture as the "Batmobile" due to its aero.

Ostentatious aero on a CSL would only be considered sacrilege if you confine the definition of "CSL" to the E46 only, but that perspective is sacrilege in itself because the CSL badge has much deeper origins, as a race car and BMW Motorsport GmbH's first model.

So while you could say overall that most E9 CSLs were not sold with the aerodynamic wings, my point here is that big wings are neither foreign nor contradictory to the CSL moniker.
Should the [future] M2 CSL necessitate more aerodynamic bodywork, it would be a welcome feature and I wouldn't find it to be disrespectful or not in-line with CSL lineage (in terms of appearance).
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      10-10-2018, 07:04 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
that's the actual race car you're posting. The road going 3.0 CSL was far humbler in appearance. Totally different appearance. There were options to make the road going CSL a bit more "accessorized" which brought it closer to the race car but still less outlandish than the racing version although much more chromed! Lol
I'm well-aware of what I posted, and it doesn't change what I said one bit as the road going versions of the 3.0 CSL (3.2L models) from JUL 1973 onwards were delivered with the bodywork to comply with homologation rules (just not physically installed from the factory due to road regulations).

It's pretty well-documented from all the witnesses and commentary from that era that the E9 CSL became known in popular automotive culture as the "Batmobile" due to its aero.

Ostentatious aero on a CSL would only be considered sacrilege if you confine the definition of "CSL" to the E46 only, but that perspective is sacrilege in itself because the CSL badge has much deeper origins, as a race car and BMW Motorsport GmbH's first model.

So while you could say overall that most E9 CSLs were not sold with the aerodynamic wings, my point here is that big wings are neither foreign nor contradictory to the CSL moniker.
Should the [future] M2 CSL necessitate more aerodynamic bodywork, it would be a welcome feature and I wouldn't find it to be disrespectful or not in-line with CSL lineage (in terms of appearance).
Oh I agree but your photos are misrepresentative.

The street cars (barring a few racing clones) looked very different. They even had a "city pack" option to make them more luxurious. The homologation cars used the same engine and overall technology but didn't match the race cars exactly (cosmetically) in terms of aero and body styling accessories.

The M2 situation is different anyways because there's no direct M2 race car the street car is being based on...
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      10-10-2018, 07:39 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Tornado1M View Post
I think if these potential M2C or M2cs buyers would just test drive a 1M first......they would reconsider their position.

I did and I couldn't be happier

I would say at least 70% would end up purchasing a pre-owned 1M over an M2 if they could just drive them back to back.

I understand tho that some want a new car with a warranty ect ect......but, they are missing out in my opinion!
The 1M felt pretty dated to me when I got my 981 in 2015 - definitely a fun car, but not in the same league from many points of view compared to the OG M2 or M2C.

More of an analog experience, which can be good or bad, depending on your point of view. Would have been cool in 2011 when i originally wanted one, but no lust from me to get one now. If you want a true analog experience, you have to go back further than that.
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      10-10-2018, 07:42 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
For one, no version of F8x will see a S58.

As far as the muffler goes for S58 powered models. Here is the G80 M3 testing.

+1

I said the same thing in a different thread - there's no way the M2 is getting the S58 before the M3/4.
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      10-10-2018, 07:46 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado1M View Post
I think if these potential M2C or M2cs buyers would just test drive a 1M first......they would reconsider their position.

I did and I couldn't be happier

I would say at least 70% would end up purchasing a pre-owned 1M over an M2 if they could just drive them back to back.

I understand tho that some want a new car with a warranty ect ect......but, they are missing out in my opinion!
The 1M felt pretty dated to me when I got my 981 in 2015 - definitely a fun car, but not in the same league from many points of view compared to the OG M2 or M2C.

More of an analog experience, which can be good or bad, depending on your point of view. Would have been cool in 2011 when i originally wanted one, but no lust from me to get one now. If you want a true analog experience, you have to go back further than that.
I still have yet to drive anything remotely from the last 10 years as fun as the 1M. Before or after getting it. The M2 didn't even come close! The 981 GTS didn't either.

Even internally within BMW; the opinion is that the 1M is still unmatched....
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      10-10-2018, 07:53 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado1M View Post
I think if these potential M2C or M2cs buyers would just test drive a 1M first......they would reconsider their position.

I did and I couldn't be happier

I would say at least 70% would end up purchasing a pre-owned 1M over an M2 if they could just drive them back to back.

I understand tho that some want a new car with a warranty ect ect......but, they are missing out in my opinion!
The 1M felt pretty dated to me when I got my 981 in 2015 - definitely a fun car, but not in the same league from many points of view compared to the OG M2 or M2C.

More of an analog experience, which can be good or bad, depending on your point of view. Would have been cool in 2011 when i originally wanted one, but no lust from me to get one now. If you want a true analog experience, you have to go back further than that.
That analog experience or what I like to call rawness and direct driving experience is the whole point. It's not watered down and controlled like the M2.

Let's agree the M2 is a wonderful sports coupe....however, from a raw engagement driving experience, where you want to be connected to your car.....it doesn't even come close when compared to the 1M.

The 1M has soul
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      10-10-2018, 08:22 AM   #146
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Yeah I called the two turbo units on the N54 in my ex 1M Sam & Dave for a reason

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      10-10-2018, 09:34 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado1M View Post
That analog experience or what I like to call rawness and direct driving experience is the whole point. It's not watered down and controlled like the M2.

Let's agree the M2 is a wonderful sports coupe....however, from a raw engagement driving experience, where you want to be connected to your car.....it doesn't even come close when compared to the 1M.

The 1M has soul
Is this the beauty on the inside argument?

The 1M has a face only a mother could love...which is fine, beauty is in the eye of the beholder for sure. But the styling was definitely part of me passing on the 1M, and contributed to my comment in regard to "dated". I also had two 135s in my past, so the interior wasn't that exciting either.

From the driving perspective, I had an extended test drive before I purchased my 981 CS, and I found the 1M to be twitchy (jumpy maybe?) and unforgiving in the throttle application department, at least compared to the Porsche. I had a tuned N54 in my first 135 and was surprised at how the 1M that I drove felt. Overall, the 981 just went around the corner in a predictable manner, while you sort of had to wrestle the 1M around the corner (which is obviously good fun).

I was also coming out of a 235 that I was very disappointed with, and it had a MT - so the MT only 1M wasn't appealing to me from that perspective either. I found the PDK to be the best gearbox I have ever had the pleasure of owning - it was great.

Along those lines, the 981 remains the best car I've ever driven, and by a long way. it's just not ideally suited to be someone's only car - hence why M cars are so attractive. They have more utility and "bang for the buck", which is why I am interested in the M2/C/CS.
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      10-10-2018, 09:40 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
I still have yet to drive anything remotely from the last 10 years as fun as the 1M. Before or after getting it. The M2 didn't even come close! The 981 GTS didn't either.

Even internally within BMW; the opinion is that the 1M is still unmatched....
Totally respect this point of view - I just didn't get that same sort of feeling from the 1M that I test drove.

I'm glad BMW made it, or we wouldn't have the M2 or M2C.
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      10-10-2018, 10:03 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
Oh I agree but your photos are misrepresentative.

The street cars (barring a few racing clones) looked very different. They even had a "city pack" option to make them more luxurious. The homologation cars used the same engine and overall technology but didn't match the race cars exactly (cosmetically) in terms of aero and body styling accessories.

The M2 situation is different anyways because there's no direct M2 race car the street car is being based on...
The racing and street versions don't match 100%, but really, the silhouettes are quite similar.
It's not misrepresentative as I'm speaking purely about aero (specifically rear spoilers) in relation to the CSL's history.

Racing:


Street:
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      10-10-2018, 10:33 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
I'm well-aware of what I posted, and it doesn't change what I said one bit as the road going versions of the 3.0 CSL (3.2L models) from JUL 1973 onwards were delivered with the bodywork to comply with homologation rules (just not physically installed from the factory due to road regulations).
It's pretty well-documented from all the witnesses and commentary from that era that the E9 CSL became known in popular automotive culture as the "Batmobile" due to its aero.
Yup.
"Why is the later 3.0 CSL sometimes referred to as the "Batmobile"?
In addition to the standard front airdam and rear spoiler, 3.2-liter CSL models could be fitted with a removable "racing kit" consisting of an air guide mounted above the rear window and an enlarged rear spoiler, both designed to increase downforce on the competition machines. The addition of these rather striking appendages resulted in the nickname "Batmobile". Because these items were required on the road version for homologation purpose but could not be installed at the factory due to a conflict with various European laws, they were supplied as the removable kit."
(source: here)

"The BMW 3.0 was powered by a 3.0 liter six-cylinder engine that produced 180 horsepower. Displacement size was increased to 3.2-liters beginning in 1973, though it still retained the '3.0 CSL' name. Neerpasch and Braqungart improved the vehicles downforce by adding a deep front air dam, increased the fenders, and added a trunk-lip spoiler. A very large rear wing earned it the nickname, the 'Batmobile' The cars did not leave the factory with the wing since they were illegal for road use. The company sold the vehicles with these accessories enclosed in the trunk of the car. They were not installed on the vehicle as they left the factory, but left up to the customer to assemble. In this fashion, the company was able to side-step the homologation process."
(source: here)
The removable "racing kit":
Name:  3_0_CSL_Spoiler_Kit.jpg
Views: 625
Size:  21.1 KB

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      10-10-2018, 10:40 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado1M View Post
That analog experience or what I like to call rawness and direct driving experience is the whole point. It's not watered down and controlled like the M2.

Let's agree the M2 is a wonderful sports coupe....however, from a raw engagement driving experience, where you want to be connected to your car.....it doesn't even come close when compared to the 1M.

The 1M has soul
Is this the beauty on the inside argument?

The 1M has a face only a mother could love...which is fine, beauty is in the eye of the beholder for sure. But the styling was definitely part of me passing on the 1M, and contributed to my comment in regard to "dated". I also had two 135s in my past, so the interior wasn't that exciting either.

From the driving perspective, I had an extended test drive before I purchased my 981 CS, and I found the 1M to be twitchy (jumpy maybe?) and unforgiving in the throttle application department, at least compared to the Porsche. I had a tuned N54 in my first 135 and was surprised at how the 1M that I drove felt. Overall, the 981 just went around the corner in a predictable manner, while you sort of had to wrestle the 1M around the corner (which is obviously good fun).

I was also coming out of a 235 that I was very disappointed with, and it had a MT - so the MT only 1M wasn't appealing to me from that perspective either. I found the PDK to be the best gearbox I have ever had the pleasure of owning - it was great.

Along those lines, the 981 remains the best car I've ever driven, and by a long way. it's just not ideally suited to be someone's only car - hence why M cars are so attractive. They have more utility and "bang for the buck", which is why I am interested in the M2/C/CS.
981 is bad ass! Agree 100%

Yeah, I don't worry to much about the 1M vs M2 look....they are both cool in there own way.

I tend to like the older BMW's and so I feel the 1M captures the history and character without so many hard lines and angles that the M2 has.

Personal preference I guess

With respect to twitchy and jumpy....well, yeah....you need to know how to drive and reign her in....she's kinda a wild child in that respect. That is the rawness and truth of the car! Its what makes it special and engaging in my opinion.

Less is more in my opinion and that's the sweet spot the 1M sits in. Look at reviews and you will find that is the common element.

There is a reason why they are selling for more now then when they were new....mileage, condition into consideration please.
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      10-10-2018, 10:49 AM   #152
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      10-10-2018, 11:34 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado1M View Post

There is a reason why they are selling for more now then when they were new....mileage, condition into consideration please.
All due respect to the 1M, the reason they are selling for more now then when they were new has much less to do with how awesome they may be and much more to do with the current financial system. Asset prices have become inflated, from cars to real estate to equities, beyond all historical norms and have disconnected from any reasonable expectation for future earnings. Too much cash is chasing too few avenues for return and it's all blown out. Enjoy it while it lasts...it won't.
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      10-10-2018, 11:45 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
This car will have the tune we need for the M2C.

Get ready to break your piggy bank!
The tune I want for the M2C will come from the M4CS BMW will position this car between M2C (410HP) and M4CS (460HP) so my guess is 430HP.
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