[Davil]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

c) I'm going onto a fish enthusiast forum and telling everyone: "The new koi varieties suck. For that kind of money, you could get a cat instead."

Okay... rant over.

This made me laugh out loud. I think this is your finest work to date. And you do have a great back catalogue.

[AUSf22]

How did this become BMW vs Porsche

I thought it was the M2CS and CS Racing in the video

[Pol]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

I love you guys, Turbomeister & SYT_Shadow!!!

Yeah, it has always been truly baffling to me that on a BMW enthusiast forum there's so much hate for BMW. If I were to go by some of the posts, I would have thought that I'd accidentally landed on Ihatebimmerspost. So weird.

What's truly bizarre is the whole, "Well, for that price, I could just get a GT4!" WTF???

1. No, you couldn't. Last I checked, GT4's, spec'ed anywhere close to what you'd want, are something like $30k more than an M2CS here in the U.S.

2. If you want a GT4, go buy yourself a GT4! Why are you on this forum pissing and moaning about how you want a GT4?

3. Why are you constantly on this forum saying either "This is how the M2 should have come in the first place" and "For this money, I could get a tune and have higher performance"? Dude, if you want to mod your car, go mod your car! Why are you on this forum constantly pissing and moaning about how "I wouldn't spend that kind of money on X"?

So weird! I mean, who wakes up in the morning and thinks to themselves, "You know what I gotta do today? I gotta get onto an Internet forum, and tell everyone what they should do with their money"???

Jeez Louise! You know what? Here's what I'm going to do as an homage to these weirdos.

a) I'm going onto a Rolex forum and telling everyone: "I wouldn't pay $10k for a Submariner. For that kind of money, you could buy a Timex and have enough left over for 900 Costco lasagnas."

b) I'm going onto a gardening forum and telling everyone: "I wouldn't pay $10 for a green bell pepper plant. For that kind of money, you could get a red bell pepper plant instead."

c) I'm going onto a fish enthusiast forum and telling everyone: "The new koi varieties suck. For that kind of money, you could get a cat instead."

Okay... rant over.

[mfurse]

Interesting to see what a great track car BMW have turned out with the M2 CS: https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...ckenheim/42611

Same tyres, same track - 0.2 sec separates them.

[Murf993]

I'd still rather have the Porsche, given that every car they make is a weapon and BMW has managed to put out one serious competitor for Porsche in how many years now?

[Windy5000]

I look forward to out-doing both with my 135i one day, although i have actually never tracked before.

[243Racing]

Originally Posted by mfurse

Interesting to see what a great track car BMW have turned out with the M2 CS: https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...ckenheim/42611

Same tyres, same track - 0.2 sec separates them.

This is fake news.

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-gp

With a real driver, the GT4 was 0.9s faster than the CS at hockenheim


EDIT:

did some threads get merged?

[aparedes]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You do not need all that crap to be faster on track than a GT4. Who has the impression the GT4 is a particularly fast track car? It is most certainly not. I run across a ton of them at the track and have yet to find a single one that is interesting. And yes, I've tracked them and instructed in them.

The 991 GT3 is pretty fast, an advantage it eeks out in the straights if you've ever tracked with one.

Somewhere on this board there was a Ring video of a M2c with a few mods being faster than a GT3 RS.
As usual on this forum, it was full on people saying the GT3 RS was actually much faster and blahblahblah. Well, if you read the comments on the Youtube video, the owner of the car had come FROM a 991 GT3 RS and was saying the M2c with a few mods was faster than his RS, and the GT3 RS driver from the video admitted his friend's M2c was faster.
EDIT: here it is https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=72

That's how you can tell who spends a lot of time at the track and is fast vs the ones who spend their time doing power to weight calculations in Excel and watching Youtube videos.

I completely agreed with you on all of your points. I think the point in my post was that the M2C is a great value proposition over all and if your desire to be as fast as possible assuming you are skill enough the M2C lets it self probably as a better platform than those cars.

That been said I do agree with you regarding skills vs equipment. I have never raced cars, but spend a several years racing motorcycles (road racing). I am quite aware that skills is more important than the equipment, but once you start getting quick enough the proper suspension, brakes and tires do make a difference as well as a proper setup which allows you to be faster and most importantly safer.

I did watch the GT3RS videos vs the M2C and it exactly what got me really interested into the M2 platform. As I can see how capable the car is stock, the potential with aftermarket parts (which they are plenty). Something else to consider running cost.

[SeanWRT]

The BMW "patriots" need to calm down. The inevitable discussion here on BMW vs. Porsche is due to the lack of comparable data at Hockenheim GP from within the BMW. The closest things to the F87 CS on the list, other than G generation M8/850i/M5, are F87 M2C (3 secs off), G29 Z4 M40i (5 secs off) and E90 M3 (8 secs off). There're no F generation M competitors. I bet should Auto Sport throw the F82 CS in it, the war kin against kin would be much more brutal and last forever...

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-gp

We could've looked at C63s' and RS5s' laptimes all day and be happy about the little M. But apparently, the expectation and ambition built for the M2 CS is beyond its class already.

Such discussion has been going on since E46. The BMW M kept up well until E9X but was down a bit with the F8X, because power overwhelms chassis, while Porsches are much better at putting more power down. The M2 CS, considered by many as the pinnale of the F8X, restores BMW M's position a bit as a 911/718 competitor, which I'd rather take as a huge compliment. Porsche two doors have no chance competing with us in the practicality category. Isn't BMW M all about a good blend of track performance and street usability?

I do acknowledge some of the posts by BMW "patriot" are bit overheated (which is echoed), but in the end understandable. Step back a little, there is really nothing nerve striking. At least, try find the next most meaningful comparison on the list and keep the discussion going.

[F87EVO]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

The BMW "patriots" need to calm down. The inevitable discussion here on BMW vs. Porsche is due to the lack of comparable data at Hockenheim GP from within the BMW. The closest things to the F87 CS on the list, other than G generation M8/850i/M5, are F87 M2C (3 secs off), G29 Z4 M40i (5 secs off) and E90 M3 (8 secs off). There're no F generation M competitors. I bet should Auto Sport throw the F82 CS in it, the war kin against kin would be much more brutal and last forever...

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-gp

We could've looked at C63s' and RS5s' laptimes all day and be happy about the little M. But apparently, the expectation and ambition built for the M2 CS is beyond its class already.

Such discussion has been going on since E46. The BMW M kept up well until E9X but was down a bit with the F8X, because power overwhelms chassis, while Porsches are much better at putting more power down. The M2 CS, considered by many as the pinnale of the F8X, restores BMW M's position a bit as a 911/718 competitor, which I'd rather take as a huge compliment. Porsche two doors have no chance competing with us in the practicality category. Isn't BMW M all about a good blend of track performance and street usability?

I do acknowledge some of the posts by BMW "patriot" are bit overheated (which is echoed), but in the end understandable. Step back a little, there is really nothing nerve striking. At least, try find the next most meaningful comparison on the list and keep the discussion going.

I agree with you in some points , the thing is that we are not in the Bimmerennlist .. we are in the BMW forums for a reason , i haven't said is bad to say opinions , but in here they are discussing way more about Porsche than BMW ! How does it feel when you are interested on a new car or even if you bought one and people scrapped it before even its delivered !?

Because we have not any review yet , people just complain about prices/lap times/other cars etc .

Honestly , how many of the CS owners are buying that car for laptimes!? I couldnt care less personally , as i may track the car 5 times a year !

An E46 CSL which has a 7:50 on the nurburgring should be a crap car right ? Even a civic is faster ! Who cares about laptimes , and competitors .. if i needed a GT4 i would just buy a GT4 , simple as that . I can't understand why people complain about which is faster or is it .2 slower or the opposite lol !?

There are people out there that they are buying the CS for :
1)limited edition
2)best F87 variant
3)cool looking car
4)hmm i like it , lets buy one
5)manual CS car , cool !
6)faster F87

And i can keep going ...

What i want to say is that , people most of the times , complain about things , that really , are not important as they fanatically discussing !

Who is the main competitor to the M2 CS ?
No one ! There isnt a car with that recipe , a coupe , 4 seater , compact Car , manual/dct , rear wheel drive , 3.0 STRAIGHT SIX , limited edition !

This topic , has beaten to death , let the car show what it is , let the reviews speak ! There are always people complaining for everything , everywhere , but i dont think we are BMW "patriots" because we love what we have , we are here because this is our passion ! In the end , if the topic is more about Porsche , i think they should move it in rennlist , who knows , maybe there will be less "hate" ! :

[sdhotwn]

I'll have to do some digging but I wonder what the full list of rear wheel drive, manual transmission four seat compact cars for sale actually is. 3 series, 2 series, Evora,
G70,...? Mustang and camaro are not small.

[243Racing]

Id rather the M2 be a 2-seater. The latest Z4 is a barge

[troysico]

The most important thing is that the CS Racing car could repeat those times for many dozens of laps whereas the street car would have issues and fade

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by troysico

The most important thing is that the CS Racing car could repeat those times for many dozens of laps whereas the street car would have issues and fade

Because?

[Davil]

Originally Posted by troysico

The most important thing is that the CS Racing car could repeat those times for many dozens of laps whereas the street car would have issues and fade

That's because it is a racing car. Racing involves many laps. The CS is a road car that can do track days. I have never been to a track day where you do "dozens of laps" in a stint. Have you?

[Davil]

Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing

Id rather the M2 be a 2-seater. The latest Z4 is a barge

Then I and many others would not be a customer.

[F87EVO]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

I'll have to do some digging but I wonder what the full list of rear wheel drive, manual transmission four seat compact cars for sale actually is. 3 series, 2 series, Evora,
G70,...? Mustang and camaro are not small.

There is simply , not a single car that compares to the M2 , please let me know of a car which is
1)Coupe (with the real mean) ,
2)4 seats
3)Straight Six
4)Manual/DCT
5)rear wheel drive
6)compact
7)limited edition
8)analoque enought
9)the same size & wheelbase.
10) easy to drive in every day life.

When the production ends , everyone will appreciate those things . You can look back in time , and appreciate other things that are no longer available..

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by Davil

That's because it is a racing car. Racing involves many laps. The CS is a road car that can do track days. I have never been to a track day where you do "dozens of laps" in a stint. Have you?

Yes, most of the stuff I have done is sessions over twenty minutes at a time, some up to an hour - so in some cases matching or exceeding the length of a DTM series race. Again, from a technical standpoint. Because why? This argument doesn't hold water from an engineering and practicality standpoint. People forget that race cars are built so that many parts are considered consumable, including the engine and suspension linkages etc, in fact because they get less consistency and faster wear. A street car may in fact see more laps before component replacement than a race car before noticeable degradation. The performance of a racing car comes from lightweight, aero, and component selection. It's not a surprise the racing car is faster with dedicated components. Additional brake cooling or other cooling may be present as well. That's where I was looking for an actual answer to come from. Brakes on these cars on any street tire compound can be pad selected to be fade resistant and fluid resistant against just about any track and duration that a racing car would be going through before it similarly would get a brake change - which is where racing vehicles will commonly differ with brake arrangements that facilitate faster component swaps. So the only thing left then is engine cooling and that is vehicle and condition dependent. So maybe the CS will have an issue holding power for duration in some conditions that the race car won't, maybe not. Just speculation either way right now.

Lastly, you as a driver have to be consistent enough and good enough to extract enough performance from the vehicle to get to where the performance degradation from inadequate components or cooling becomes the factor in lap times. Even after 18 years in various types of vehicles and racing formats I can tell you that is almost never me or my amateur competitors. The gap between us and the pros that run in even lower race series is larger than most people's egos can handle.

[officialspike]

M2CS 450hp, cup2s tires, DCT which claim to be faster than Manuel and lighter than the M2 Competition with 410hp, Pilot super sports tires and Manuel, am more impress with the M2 Competition around that track, my opinion

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by Turbomeister

There is simply , not a single car that compares to the M2 , please let me know of a car which is
1)Coupe (with the real mean) ,
2)4 seats
3)Straight Six
4)Manual/DCT
5)rear wheel drive
6)compact
7)limited edition
8)analoque enought
9)the same size & wheelbase.
10) easy to drive in every day life.

When the production ends , everyone will appreciate those things . You can look back in time , and appreciate other things that are no longer available..

I don't disagree, I was just trying to think of things that were even close without requiring limited edition and straight six, and daily livability, and that list is still crazy short. Essentially reinforcing your point.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by officialspike

M2CS 450hp, cup2s tires, DCT which claim to be faster than Manuel and lighter than the M2 Competition with 410hp, Pilot super sports tires and Manuel, am more impress with the M2 Competition around that track, my opinion

Manuel was always getting hit on the forehead by Basil with a spoon. So he's done well.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Turbomeister

There is simply , not a single car that compares to the M2 , please let me know of a car which is
1)Coupe (with the real mean) ,
2)4 seats
3)Straight Six
4)Manual/DCT
5)rear wheel drive
6)compact
7)limited edition
8)analoque enought
9)the same size & wheelbase.
10) easy to drive in every day life.
When the production ends , everyone will appreciate those things . You can look back in time , and appreciate other things that are no longer available..

As #7 has apparently tumbled: your list counts for the whole F87 M2 line-up: original M2, M2 LCI, M2 Competition and M2 CS. There are more things that you can add to your list, such as for example "decent boot space" and "decent maintenance costs".

Originally Posted by MR.

13. Production numbers of the CS are unknown at this stage. It could be 2200, but also a whole bunch more. They will make as many as they can. Cars are in production now and the EOL (end-of-life) is October. European cars are build first so that they have a CoC before end of August since the S55 engine is not compliant anymore from September onwards.

(CoC = Certificate of Conformity)