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      06-17-2020, 09:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep View Post
Just for (you know what) and giggles, i decided to option out a Cayman GT4. Now, these were some light options that I think the car should have, being a GT Porsche and all. No Ceramic brakes or anything insane. $124K. That's a solid $40K more than the M2CS.
I have done the same exercise as I am looking to buy a track car that I can occasionally drive in the street. It is possible to get an M2C 2020 brand new for around 57K with DTC. Add another 40K, that will include AP Racing Brakes, 3 Way Adjustable Racing Suspension, Carbon Fiber Hood, Roof, Trunk, 18inch forge wheels, roll cage and few other goodies, a engine tune and I am pretty confident you end up with a car that is superior in the track than a stock GT4...

Out of the box it is clear the GT4 it is a far superior car but I do not think you can compare them really... there is a 30-35% price different at least, one is a 2 seat mid engine with barely any trunk space and the other is a 4 passenger coupe.

Now resale value is a complete different story and the GT4 will win that all day.
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      06-17-2020, 11:55 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Flashstar View Post
It is necessary to test with a Cayman. He will humiliate their both.

Cayman GT4 level is better in dynamics. We tested at the Nürburgring and compared. The new BMW CS is not much better than the stock version.

But the BMW test against BMW was a success, you can "sell". Many say that M2 after a Cayman is like moving from a go-kart to a tractor.
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      06-18-2020, 12:19 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by omasou View Post
Seems they forgot to give credit the the CCBs.
And what credit should they get?
The article talked about how well the CS took the corners and how it could brake later but attributed the improvement in performance to the cups and not the CCB.
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      06-18-2020, 03:30 AM   #48
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You know, if you want a Cayman you can buy one. I think some people are in the wrong forum? This thread was about two BMWs on a track. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a small 2 seater from another manufacturer. I really do not get this weird obsession. It's getting really boring.
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      06-18-2020, 05:46 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by omasou View Post
The article talked about how well the CS took the corners and how it could brake later but attributed the improvement in performance to the cups and not the CCB.
That’s because they know what they are talking about. The advantage does come from the tires and not the brakes. This has been debated ad nauseam, the CCB do not offer any meaningful advantage in braking performance.
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      06-18-2020, 05:58 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
You know, if you want a Cayman you can buy one. I think some people are in the wrong forum? This thread was about two BMWs on a track. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a small 2 seater from another manufacturer. I really do not get this weird obsession. It's getting really boring.
Second track where a (manual this time!) M2 CS is faster than the Porsche rival ?!
Oh no, what a tragedy!
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      06-18-2020, 05:59 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing View Post
Heat. Cayman is NA.
I don’t believe the Cayman has advantage in that regard. The S55 heat management is quite impressive, I’ve never had heat issues even in back-to-back sessions running on hot days.

As a tidbit, I have fun asking folks to put their hand on my intercooler right after a track session. It’s funny to see them look in awe as the intercooler is cool to the touch within the scorching hot engine compartment. It’s quite impressive.
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      06-18-2020, 07:10 AM   #52
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Anyone having experience turning 718/911 would know saying M is faster around track is a joke.

Center gravity and thus the speed difference carried into corner is massive. The Ms feel like normal street cars with more power, stiffer and more balanced chassis, and more grip. While 718/911 is the glued-to-ground sports car that's engineered from a whole different base.

BTW, Christian Gebhardt seems to be constantly 0.6~0.7s faster than Uwe Sener at Hockenheim GP...
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      06-18-2020, 08:15 AM   #53
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Thank you.
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      06-18-2020, 08:47 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by brunodudo View Post
the M2 CS is 0,2 seconds faster than the 718 GT4 at the same track. very interesting results.
It is very interesting, but that won't sway all the BMW haters and Porsche apologists on this forum

M2 CS is 20k less than the GT4, but faster. But it doesn't matter, nothing is enough to sway the M haters

The M2 CS could weigh 1000lb, have 600hp, cost 30k and still, the world would be full of morons saying it's inferior to the porsche.

You must understand that Porsche fanboyism is like a religion.

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      06-18-2020, 08:49 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Anyone having experience turning 718/911 would know saying M is faster around track is a joke.

Center gravity and thus the speed difference carried into corner is massive. The Ms feel like normal street cars with more power, stiffer and more balanced chassis, and more grip. While 718/911 is the glued-to-ground sports car that's engineered from a whole different base.

BTW, Christian Gebhardt seems to be constantly 0.6~0.7s faster than Uwe Sener at Hockenheim GP...
Actually there are plenty of people here who are PCA instructors and race at AER, for example.

The joke is on feeble minded people who think Porsche builds magical cars that cannot be beat. It is evident these feeble minded people spend precious little time on the track which explains their absolute cluelessness
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      06-18-2020, 08:55 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
You know, if you want a Cayman you can buy one. I think some people are in the wrong forum? This thread was about two BMWs on a track. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a small 2 seater from another manufacturer. I really do not get this weird obsession. It's getting really boring.
It's pretty surprising. If we used more stringent moderating standards, the people who spend their time on the M forum disparaging M products in every post would simply be banned, as they are not helping the community in any way.

If I were in Rennlist, spending my time laughing at how my street driven E90 M3 and F80 CS crush the tender little manginas of all the 991 GT3s at PCA's fastest run group, well, I'd expect to be banned. That wouldn't change that it's the truth.

It's always the same story. BMW cannot win. Whatever they do will be criticized by people who should put their money where their loud mouths are and buy their POS Porsches.
First BMW makes a special edition M2 and everyones hates on it before the price is even announced, saying it's going to be too expensive and that 'for that price' they would buy a Porsche.
Second, BMW announced the price, 20k less than the GT4. It doesn't matter, people continue to hate on it because even though 83k is cheaper than most Cayman S configurations, it's still 'too expensive' and 'not fast enough'
Third, a 3rd party organization tests the CS and it's faster than the GT4. Still doesn't matter, more hate


Don't worry too much though, eventually some of these Porsche lovers save up their banana peels by eating ramen noodles and finally afford a used GT3 and think it's God's gift to mankind. And I crush them at Watkins Glen.
For reference, this is the red (fastest) run group at PCA in a club which is so snobby that if you try to attend their track day with a BMW they tell you 'we are sorry but due to the high driving level of XXX club we are concerned you cannot keep up'. The only meaningful reason for the video posting is it's the fastest 991 GT3 we've run into. The rest get blown away like flies hitting a windshield.


Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 06-18-2020 at 10:18 AM..
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      06-18-2020, 09:11 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aparedes View Post
I have done the same exercise as I am looking to buy a track car that I can occasionally drive in the street. It is possible to get an M2C 2020 brand new for around 57K with DTC. Add another 40K, that will include AP Racing Brakes, 3 Way Adjustable Racing Suspension, Carbon Fiber Hood, Roof, Trunk, 18inch forge wheels, roll cage and few other goodies, a engine tune and I am pretty confident you end up with a car that is superior in the track than a stock GT4...

Out of the box it is clear the GT4 it is a far superior car but I do not think you can compare them really... there is a 30-35% price different at least, one is a 2 seat mid engine with barely any trunk space and the other is a 4 passenger coupe.

Now resale value is a complete different story and the GT4 will win that all day.
You do not need all that crap to be faster on track than a GT4. Who has the impression the GT4 is a particularly fast track car? It is most certainly not. I run across a ton of them at the track and have yet to find a single one that is interesting. And yes, I've tracked them and instructed in them.

The 991 GT3 is pretty fast, an advantage it eeks out in the straights if you've ever tracked with one.

Somewhere on this board there was a Ring video of a M2c with a few mods being faster than a GT3 RS.
As usual on this forum, it was full on people saying the GT3 RS was actually much faster and blahblahblah. Well, if you read the comments on the Youtube video, the owner of the car had come FROM a 991 GT3 RS and was saying the M2c with a few mods was faster than his RS, and the GT3 RS driver from the video admitted his friend's M2c was faster.
EDIT: here it is https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=72

That's how you can tell who spends a lot of time at the track and is fast vs the ones who spend their time doing power to weight calculations in Excel and watching Youtube videos.

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 06-18-2020 at 10:02 AM..
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      06-18-2020, 10:35 AM   #58
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This forum is literally crawling with Porsche apologists. I'm waiting for the crew to show up bleating about how awesome $100k 4 cylinder Cayman's are, manuals are slower, an EPAS is somehow and upgrade not a downgrade compared to hydraulic steering.
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      06-18-2020, 10:51 AM   #59
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Thank you SWT_Shadow for restoring sanity to this thread that would be more appropriately named "P car fan boy circle jerk"
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      06-18-2020, 11:05 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Acetech View Post
Thank you SWT_Shadow for restoring sanity to this thread that would be more appropriately named "P car fan boy circle jerk"
Glad to help

I don't understand why someone likes car X but spends time in the forum of car Y complaining about car Y. Rennlist is waiting for them with open arms!
Get your 4 cylinder 100k crap and go to Rennlist! It seems so simple

The best part is when you do actual racing at AER and every single one of the HPDE Porsche fanboys shows up in an M3... shouldn't they be driving a 986 Cayman or something? One of those magical dedicated sports cars?
You certainly don't see me doing AER with a Mustang or something.
After all the talk about 'Porsche would hold up better than M', then you go to a 8h endurance race and the Porsche guys are all running BMWs! How does that make sense exactly?

The real world is so hilariously different than all these Porsche apologist comments. In the real world, a 997 911 is a Class 4 car at AER, the same class as 1997 E36 M3s US-spec which were neutered by BMW.

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 06-18-2020 at 11:15 AM..
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      06-18-2020, 11:43 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
It's pretty surprising. If we used more stringent moderating standards, the people who spend their time on the M forum disparaging M products in every post would simply be banned, as they are not helping the community in any way.

If I were in Rennlist, spending my time laughing at how my street driven E90 M3 and F80 CS crush the tender little manginas of all the 991 GT3s at PCA's fastest run group, well, I'd expect to be banned. That wouldn't change that it's the truth.

It's always the same story. BMW cannot win. Whatever they do will be criticized by people who should put their money where their loud mouths are and buy their POS Porsches.
First BMW makes a special edition M2 and everyones hates on it before the price is even announced, saying it's going to be too expensive and that 'for that price' they would buy a Porsche.
Second, BMW announced the price, 20k less than the GT4. It doesn't matter, people continue to hate on it because even though 83k is cheaper than most Cayman S configurations, it's still 'too expensive' and 'not fast enough'
Third, a 3rd party organization tests the CS and it's faster than the GT4. Still doesn't matter, more hate


Don't worry too much though, eventually some of these Porsche lovers save up their banana peels by eating ramen noodles and finally afford a used GT3 and think it's God's gift to mankind. And I crush them at Watkins Glen.
For reference, this is the red (fastest) run group at PCA in a club which is so snobby that if you try to attend their track day with a BMW they tell you 'we are sorry but due to the high driving level of XXX club we are concerned you cannot keep up'. The only meaningful reason for the video posting is it's the fastest 991 GT3 we've run into. The rest get blown away like flies hitting a windshield.

A truism...
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      06-18-2020, 01:04 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
You know, if you want a Cayman you can buy one. I think some people are in the wrong forum? This thread was about two BMWs on a track. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a small 2 seater from another manufacturer. I really do not get this weird obsession. It's getting really boring.
It's pretty surprising. If we used more stringent moderating standards, the people who spend their time on the M forum disparaging M products in every post would simply be banned, as they are not helping the community in any way.

If I were in Rennlist, spending my time laughing at how my street driven E90 M3 and F80 CS crush the tender little manginas of all the 991 GT3s at PCA's fastest run group, well, I'd expect to be banned. That wouldn't change that it's the truth.

It's always the same story. BMW cannot win. Whatever they do will be criticized by people who should put their money where their loud mouths are and buy their POS Porsches.
First BMW makes a special edition M2 and everyones hates on it before the price is even announced, saying it's going to be too expensive and that 'for that price' they would buy a Porsche.
Second, BMW announced the price, 20k less than the GT4. It doesn't matter, people continue to hate on it because even though 83k is cheaper than most Cayman S configurations, it's still 'too expensive' and 'not fast enough'
Third, a 3rd party organization tests the CS and it's faster than the GT4. Still doesn't matter, more hate


Don't worry too much though, eventually some of these Porsche lovers save up their banana peels by eating ramen noodles and finally afford a used GT3 and think it's God's gift to mankind. And I crush them at Watkins Glen.
For reference, this is the red (fastest) run group at PCA in a club which is so snobby that if you try to attend their track day with a BMW they tell you 'we are sorry but due to the high driving level of XXX club we are concerned you cannot keep up'. The only meaningful reason for the video posting is it's the fastest 991 GT3 we've run into. The rest get blown away like flies hitting a windshield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
You know, if you want a Cayman you can buy one. I think some people are in the wrong forum? This thread was about two BMWs on a track. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a small 2 seater from another manufacturer. I really do not get this weird obsession. It's getting really boring.
It's pretty surprising. If we used more stringent moderating standards, the people who spend their time on the M forum disparaging M products in every post would simply be banned, as they are not helping the community in any way.

If I were in Rennlist, spending my time laughing at how my street driven E90 M3 and F80 CS crush the tender little manginas of all the 991 GT3s at PCA's fastest run group, well, I'd expect to be banned. That wouldn't change that it's the truth.

It's always the same story. BMW cannot win. Whatever they do will be criticized by people who should put their money where their loud mouths are and buy their POS Porsches.
First BMW makes a special edition M2 and everyones hates on it before the price is even announced, saying it's going to be too expensive and that 'for that price' they would buy a Porsche.
Second, BMW announced the price, 20k less than the GT4. It doesn't matter, people continue to hate on it because even though 83k is cheaper than most Cayman S configurations, it's still 'too expensive' and 'not fast enough'
Third, a 3rd party organization tests the CS and it's faster than the GT4. Still doesn't matter, more hate


Don't worry too much though, eventually some of these Porsche lovers save up their banana peels by eating ramen noodles and finally afford a used GT3 and think it's God's gift to mankind. And I crush them at Watkins Glen.
For reference, this is the red (fastest) run group at PCA in a club which is so snobby that if you try to attend their track day with a BMW they tell you 'we are sorry but due to the high driving level of XXX club we are concerned you cannot keep up'. The only meaningful reason for the video posting is it's the fastest 991 GT3 we've run into. The rest get blown away like flies hitting a windshield.

Well said my friend , there have been a while now that we see bmw haters on the forums , and haters for the M2 CS for some reason !
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      06-18-2020, 01:54 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbomeister View Post
Well said my friend , there have been a while now that we see bmw haters on the forums , and haters for the M2 CS for some reason !
Imagine the inferiority complex they have about their 4 cylinder 100k cars... they spend their days on the M forum talking smack about BMWs.

If they were so secure in their superiority they wouldn't be here.

If we were in the Miata forum and it was full of people with serious mental health problems talking about how wonderful M cars are, I would conclude that the cause of their mental health deterioration is that they've been to the track and a Miata has introduced its front bumper into the rear bumper of their M car without any lubricant at all, and it hurts them, so they spend the day talking to Miata people about how much better their M cars are

Mental health is no joke, people suffering from it should seek professional help
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      06-18-2020, 02:00 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbomeister View Post
Well said my friend , there have been a while now that we see bmw haters on the forums , and haters for the M2 CS for some reason !
Imagine the inferiority complex they have about their 4 cylinder 100k cars... they spend their days on the M forum talking smack about BMWs.

If they were so secure in their superiority they wouldn't be here.

If we were in the Miata forum and it was full of people with serious mental health problems talking about how wonderful M cars are, I would conclude that the cause of their mental health issue is that they've been to the track and a Miata has introduced its front bumper into the rear bumper of their M car without any lubricant at all, and it hurts them, so they spend the day talking to Miata people about how much better their M cars are
Imagine how bad it feels , being on a forum in order to justify your purchase or just to tell bad things about cars that you have no idea
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      06-18-2020, 03:40 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbomeister View Post
Imagine how bad it feels , being on a forum in order to justify your purchase or just to tell bad things about cars that you have no idea


I love you guys, Turbomeister & SYT_Shadow!!!

Yeah, it has always been truly baffling to me that on a BMW enthusiast forum there's so much hate for BMW. If I were to go by some of the posts, I would have thought that I'd accidentally landed on Ihatebimmerspost. So weird.

What's truly bizarre is the whole, "Well, for that price, I could just get a GT4!" WTF???

1. No, you couldn't. Last I checked, GT4's, spec'ed anywhere close to what you'd want, are something like $30k more than an M2CS here in the U.S.

2. If you want a GT4, go buy yourself a GT4! Why are you on this forum pissing and moaning about how you want a GT4?

3. Why are you constantly on this forum saying either "This is how the M2 should have come in the first place" and "For this money, I could get a tune and have higher performance"? Dude, if you want to mod your car, go mod your car! Why are you on this forum constantly pissing and moaning about how "I wouldn't spend that kind of money on X"?

So weird! I mean, who wakes up in the morning and thinks to themselves, "You know what I gotta do today? I gotta get onto an Internet forum, and tell everyone what they should do with their money"???

Jeez Louise! You know what? Here's what I'm going to do as an homage to these weirdos.

a) I'm going onto a Rolex forum and telling everyone: "I wouldn't pay $10k for a Submariner. For that kind of money, you could buy a Timex and have enough left over for 900 Costco lasagnas."

b) I'm going onto a gardening forum and telling everyone: "I wouldn't pay $10 for a green bell pepper plant. For that kind of money, you could get a red bell pepper plant instead."

c) I'm going onto a fish enthusiast forum and telling everyone: "The new koi varieties suck. For that kind of money, you could get a cat instead."

Okay... rant over.
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      06-18-2020, 04:00 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post


I love you guys, Turbomeister & SYT_Shadow!!!

Yeah, it has always been truly baffling to me that on a BMW enthusiast forum there's so much hate for BMW. If I were to go by some of the posts, I would have thought that I'd accidentally landed on Ihatebimmerspost. So weird.
I'm going to nominate you for post of the year 2020!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptobvious View Post
What's truly bizarre is the whole, "Well, for that price, I could just get a GT4!" WTF???
1. No, you couldn't. Last I checked, GT4's, spec'ed anywhere close to what you'd want, are something like $30k more than an M2CS here in the U.S.

2. If you want a GT4, go buy yourself a GT4! Why are you on this forum pissing and moaning about how you want a GT4?
The exact same thing happened when the GTS was announced. Before anyone has driven it, so many people saying 'for 130k I'd buy a GT3'. Really? In which planet? Because a new GT3 is 148k base price and in reality 200k all day every day, that's assuming Porsche gives you the honor and privilege of selling one to you.
Meanwhile, Car and Driver tests a sparsely optioned base 992 4(no S) that doesn't even have a LSD, price as tested, 129k.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
A friend bought a 991.1 GTS, 147k without ceramics or anything cool. Welcome to the real world.
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