[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Indistinguishable? I disagree IMHO. There is just no way a ZF8 (Slush Box / Torque Converter) can hit as hard between shifts as a DCT in Sport+. It's just not logical

I have driven a vehicle with a ZF8 and it is SMOOTH. However, not quite what I'm looking for in a sports vehicle. I guess we will find out.

I've also heard the ZF8 is much cheaper to repair should it break. I think that is behind the DCTs fall from grace.

KBD

I was not stating they are indistinguishable. . . I was inquiring if they were.

It seems the ZF8 can be 'tuned,' so maybe you get little more aggressive shifts with, say, M2C than BMW puts in the X5?

///AVM

[Acetech]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Indistinguishable? I disagree IMHO. There is just no way a ZF8 (Slush Box / Torque Converter) can hit as hard between shifts as a DCT in Sport+. It's just not logical

I have driven a vehicle with a ZF8 and it is SMOOTH. However, not quite what I'm looking for in a sports vehicle. I guess we will find out.

I've also heard the ZF8 is much cheaper to repair should it break. I think that is behind the DCTs fall from grace.

Modern automatic transmission feature torque converter clutches, when engaged they offer solid power flow through the converter, so they can hit as hard as they are programmed too.

As far as repairs go you are limited to external seals and the valve body with the automatic so repair cost could be higher, with DCT you can also replace the clutch assembly.
Good news is both transmissions have a good reliability record

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

KBD

I was not stating they are indistinguishable. . . I was inquiring if they were.

It seems the ZF8 can be 'tuned,' so maybe you get little more aggressive shifts with, say, M2C than BMW puts in the X5?

///AVM

I know, that's why I included your "?"
I know you were ask a question and not making a statement.
Apologies if it came off wrong

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

I know, that's why I included your "?"
I know you were ask a question and not making a statement.
Apologies if it came off wrong

No worries brother, I'm not that sensitive. . . incase it was not obvious, I have all questions and no answers at this point about ZF8.

///AVM

[nlpamg]

Weighing in on the ZF8, between the DCT on my F80 and the ZF8 on my Supra, the ZF8 is smooooth and most shifts are faster than DCT. The ZF8 is definitely no slouch.

[///AVM]

So, after all the excellent feedback provided, I am quite optimistic the ZF8 will function equally well, if not better than DCT in automatic Sport and Sport Plus modes.

Although the above is positive, my interest in DCT/PDK stems from ability to engage manual mode with shifter. Not a fan of paddle shifting at all. Manual mode with shifter completely pacifies and exceeds enthusiasm I held for MT. From what I have learned, seems ZF8 will continue to provide the enjoyment I have come to expect from DCT/PDK manual mode.

///AVM

[RPM33]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

So, after all the excellent feedback provided, I am quite optimistic the ZF8 will function equally well, if not better, than DCT in automatic Sport and Sport Plus modes.

Although the above is positive, my interest in DCT/PDK stems from ability to engage manual mode with shifter. Not a fan of paddle shifting at all. Manual mode with shifter completely pacifies and exceeds enthusiasm I held for MT. From what I have learned, seems ZF8 will continue to provide the enjoyment I have come to expect from DCT/PDK manual mode.

///AVM

I agree with you as I think the ZF8 automatic will be fine. A G87 M2 CSL sounds very interesting but it is many years away.

[RPM33]

The wait for the F87 M2 CS has been long and exhausting as I believe this will be the best M2 until the G87 M2 CS which is probably five years away or more.

[nlpamg]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

So, after all the excellent feedback provided, I am quite optimistic the ZF8 will function equally well, if not better than DCT in automatic Sport and Sport Plus modes.

Although the above is positive, my interest in DCT/PDK stems from ability to engage manual mode with shifter. Not a fan of paddle shifting at all. Manual mode with shifter completely pacifies and exceeds enthusiasm I held for MT. From what I have learned, seems ZF8 will continue to provide the enjoyment I have come to expect from DCT/PDK manual mode.

///AVM

Manual mode with the ZF8 is comparable or better than DCT/PDK (not better than PDK-S though).

The only think you'll miss in the ZF8 is being able to just drop from 7th to 3rd at an instant that DCT allows you to do.

[Davil]

Shift Speed

ZF-8 150ms // DCT 60ms // manual 500ms-1s // human blink 300ms

ZF8 will be "smoother" in day to day driving.

Between DCT and manual I'd go DCT
Between ZF8 and manual I'd go manual.

Eventually of course there will be no choice. But I'm looking forward to getting the last DCT from BMW and keeping it for some time.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Davil

Shift Speed

ZF-8 150ms // DCT 60ms // manual 500ms-1s // human blink 300ms

ZF8 will be "smoother" in day to day driving.

Between DCT and manual I'd go DCT
Between ZF8 and manual I'd go manual.

Eventually of course there will be no choice. But I'm looking forward to getting the last DCT from BMW and keeping it for some time.

Davil

I do not know the answer to this question, but question whether the difference between 60ms and 150ms represents a perceptible difference? My suspicion is the difference is not perceptible?

///AVM

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Davil

I do not know the answer to this question, but question whether the difference between 60ms and 150ms represents a perceptible difference? My suspicion is the difference is not perceptible?

///AVM

I would think it's perceptible. I think you would definitely notice a 150ms shift time, but 60ms would feel pretty instant. The pdk is considered quick, and GM claims the auto in the zl1 is quicker.

https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2016/may/0511-10speed-gm.html

Would be interesting to hit up the zl1 forum to see what they are saying about the auto trans.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

I would think it's perceptible. I think you would definitely notice a 150ms shift time, but 60ms would feel pretty instant. The pdk is considered quick, and GM claims the auto in the zl1 is quicker.

https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/...0speed-gm.html

Would be interesting to hit up the zl1 forum to see what they are saying about the auto trans.

Dave

I did do some looking into the topic. Superficially, the threshold of human sensory perception in time appears to be about 50ms. I say 'superficially' because most of the online reviews on the topic delve into conscious and subconscious processing of information. . . I do not wish to complicate a simple question.

One study that is commonly cited entails displaying and removing a disk at specific time intervals. The human threshold was 50ms. In other words, for times intervals of less than 50ms, the human perceives the disk as being constantly present. Of course, that is experiment involves time and visual perception, however, correlates to human sensory perception (processing) in general.

As per my prior post, I offer no claim of expertise on the topic. Nonetheless, if the information I have presented is taken to be relatively accurate, I would have to believe our ability to perceive the difference between a 60ms vs 100ms shift time is limited, at best.

For reference, I do not know the difference between PDK and DCT shift times as measured by engineers with whatever devices they have to make such determinations? In real life, driving both a PDK and DCT routinely, I cannot tell you I perceive any difference in shift speed. . . they are both really fast.

///AVM

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Dave

I did do some looking into the topic. Superficially, the threshold of human sensory perception in time appears to be about 50ms. I say 'superficially' because most of the online reviews on the topic delve into conscious and subconscious processing of information. . . I do not wish to complicate a simple question.

One study that is commonly cited entails displaying and removing a disk at specific time intervals. The human threshold was 50ms. In other words, for times intervals of less than 50ms, the human perceives the disk as being constantly present. Of course, that is experiment involves time and visual perception, however, correlates to human sensory perception (processing) in general.

As per my prior post, I offer no claim of expertise on the topic. Nonetheless, if the information I have presented is taken to be relatively accurate, I would have to believe our ability to perceive the difference between a 60ms vs 100ms shift time is limited, at best.

For reference, I do not know the difference between PDK and DCT shift times as measured by engineers with whatever devices they have to make such determinations? In real life, driving both a PDK and DCT routinely, I cannot tell you I perceive any difference in shift speed. . . they are both really fast.

///AVM

Expanding upon this... I wonder how much is system delay? A manufacturer could have the quickest shifting transmission, but a poorly designed circuit could add to the delay. Paddle travel before a shift is triggered, and time it takes for the signal to trigger a shift.

[devo]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Dave

I did do some looking into the topic. Superficially, the threshold of human sensory perception in time appears to be about 50ms. I say 'superficially' because most of the online reviews on the topic delve into conscious and subconscious processing of information. . . I do not wish to complicate a simple question.

One study that is commonly cited entails displaying and removing a disk at specific time intervals. The human threshold was 50ms. In other words, for times intervals of less than 50ms, the human perceives the disk as being constantly present. Of course, that is experiment involves time and visual perception, however, correlates to human sensory perception (processing) in general.

As per my prior post, I offer no claim of expertise on the topic. Nonetheless, if the information I have presented is taken to be relatively accurate, I would have to believe our ability to perceive the difference between a 60ms vs 100ms shift time is limited, at best.

For reference, I do not know the difference between PDK and DCT shift times as measured by engineers with whatever devices they have to make such determinations? In real life, driving both a PDK and DCT routinely, I cannot tell you I perceive any difference in shift speed. . . they are both really fast.

///AVM

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Expanding upon this... I wonder how much is system delay? A manufacturer could have the quickest shifting transmission, but a poorly designed circuit could add to the delay. Paddle travel before a shift is triggered, and time it takes for the signal to trigger a shift.

^ Great info... valid point on paddle travel delay as Porsche's GT Director, Preuninger, made a point of addressing a 50% (iircc) reduction in paddle travel time for the .1 GT3.

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Expanding upon this... I wonder how much is system delay? A manufacturer could have the quickest shifting transmission, but a poorly designed circuit could add to the delay. Paddle travel before a shift is triggered, and time it takes for the signal to trigger a shift.

There is also the question whether the activation is based on the pull or the release of the paddle. Some systems are the later and would feel slower. At their quickest setting, both the M2 M-DCT and the ZF8 are plenty quick enough with no lag in the paddle. And that's what I hate when test driving some other brands. Although of all the M2 shifts, 3-4 seems slower than others. But maybe that's because I've let off the gas pedal on the street.

[medphysdave]

Damn, this is good discussion worthy of its own thread. I really enjoy this type of conversation.

[Hulk Smash]

I ordered a US spec CS through the Military Sales program in Germany and this week was the production week. I have the VIN and it's scheduled to be delivered early next month. I would assume BMW is starting to produce US spec models so those in the states that are waiting... you may not be waiting much longer.

As for the transmission debate. I have a 2020 X4 M40i with the ZF8. The ZF8 is simply amazing! In comfort mode it's so good that it's easy to forget there is a transmission, it makes every shift buttery smooth. In Sport Plus it's programmed to give a little kick and the shifts are very fast.

I was a manual transmission only type guy before I experienced the ZF8, but I'll never look down on automatics again.

[AUSf22]

Originally Posted by M2CS

I ordered a US spec CS through the Military Sales program in Germany and this week was the production week. I have the VIN and it's scheduled to be delivered early next month. I would assume BMW is starting to produce US spec models so those in the states that are waiting... you may not be waiting much longer.

As for the transmission debate. I have a 2020 X4 M40 with the ZF8. The ZF8 is simply amazing! In comfort mode it's so good that it's easy to forget there is a transmission, it make every shift buttery smooth. In Sport Plus it's programmed to give a little kick and the shifts are very fast.

I was a manual transmission only type guy before I experienced the ZF8, but I'll never look down on automatics again.

Awesome and congrats! you may the first to get a US spec car if that's the case. BMW Military sales goes through BMW directly and has priority over dealers.

What colour did you go with?

[Hulk Smash]

Originally Posted by AUSf22

Awesome and congrats! you may the first to get a US spec car if that's the case. BMW Military sales goes through BMW directly and has priority over dealers.

What colour did you go with?

Thanks. A few months ago we weren't sure BMW was going to offer the CS for Military Sales (at least not with any sort of discount), but recently they allocated 5 of them.

I ordered Hockenheim Silver with Black wheels.

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by M2CS

Thanks. A few months ago we weren't sure BMW was going to offer the CS for Military Sales (at least not with any sort of discount), but recently they allocated 5 of them.

I ordered Hockenheim Silver with Black wheels.

That's great news. DCT or manual?

[Hulk Smash]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

That's great news. DCT or manual?

I went with the DCT. I also went with the steel brakes instead of CCB.