[heavyD^2]

Cars are not investments.

[Picoschu]

Originally Posted by chris719

I will admit I've never driven a 1M. Have driven N54 135i, at the time I was not impressed compared to Z4M. I'm sure the 1M is much closer than that, but I can't help but think it's possibly overrated. The E8x 1er chassis was really bouncy / snappy and not that progressive. The E85/86 Z4M was not exactly BMW's finest hour either, but you hit understeer earlier and S54 was less likely to get you in trouble with torque.

I also think the E8x 1er is pretty ugly in general. The 1M elevates that status to an acquired taste, as you note .

The 1M's wider fenders, and front/rear bumpers definitely make it easier on the eyes, but the face still has a dorky look to me. I've driven one a handful of times and every time I think to myself "I want one", but at this point their asking price is out of my budget and I like the looks of the M2 more.

I believe the 1M hold their values because it was a very small production run and it was basically a "Frankenstein" model from BMW. It has E9x M3 suspension bits and brakes, and the engine was from the Z4, not the 135i, which I believe is tuned with more power or has different internals.

[No Boost]

740 1M units but the US shores for the 2011 model year. Even less exist now due to a handful being totalled or exported. This is the reason for the appreciation curve, not the "last of the old school M cars" theory.

I'm lucky enough to see an Alpine white one that's semi local to me every few months on the road. Both of us give equal admiration to each other with the thumbs up.

[Poochie]

The 1M was a great vehicle but the technology and performance have progressed, since then.

We now have better performing and more efficient vehicles available, surpassing the 1M in every field, even subjectively in steering feel..

Even in 2013, BMW own testing found that the 235i was able to beat the 1M around the Nürburgring. That's saying a lot about the model generation advancement.

Some are just nostalgic and caught up in the "grass is always greener" mentality but the factually, the current offerings are just as good or even better than what the 1M could deliver.

Supply and demand is the reason for this yearning and high residual, obviously.

I bet you if the 1M was massed produced, it would be revered as just another M car, in passing. Same as the E92 M3, which in itself IMO was the last great natural aspirated M car but now can be had for as low as 20k.

[JCZ5]

So there are over 6000 1M produced worldwide. That is quite a lot, compared to how many CS versions of the M3/M4 were produced. But I believe the reason 1M is holding better value, as others have mentioned is because it was only made in 1 year only and the "last of"...

Now comparing to the CS, there has been a lot of speculation that it's a North American only model. At 2,200, it's a lot just for NA. I'm obviously hoping it won't depreciate too much as it's the first "special" limited M2. But we shall wait and see.

I also doubt the 718 cayman will hold too much value. Remember it's non-limited and if you read Rennlist, people are sticking to their 918 cayman, which is arguably much cheaper for practically the same novice street and track performance. The 718 will be produced for at least 3 years and with a Carrera engine that is built alongside the new 992 engine. If Porsche as learned anything, it will use this as a controlled cash cow and satisfy anyone who wants one...as long as they have patience. They will reserve the GT3 as the "special" allocation controlled vehicle.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by kepler

GT3 Touring is the one. GT4 production will be much higher this time around...and with only the Carrera engine, it’s not a real GT car.

It doesn’t get the “real” GT engine because then it would be appreciably better than the 911.

[Dav3]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Same as the E92 M3, which in itself IMO was the last great natural aspirated M car but now can be had for as low as 20k.

For 20k you get what you pay for though. Easy 5 digit repair bills more often than not

low mileage (<10,000) e92 m3 go for around 50k here in Europe and those are the ones you wanna get

[akkando]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

So there are over 6000 1M produced worldwide. That is quite a lot, compared to how many CS versions of the M3/M4 were produced. But I believe the reason 1M is holding better value, as others have mentioned is because it was only made in 1 year only and the "last of"...

Now comparing to the CS, there has been a lot of speculation that it's a North American only model. At 2,200, it's a lot just for NA. I'm obviously hoping it won't depreciate too much as it's the first "special" limited M2. But we shall wait and see.

I also doubt the 718 cayman will hold too much value. Remember it's non-limited and if you read Rennlist, people are sticking to their 918 cayman, which is arguably much cheaper for practically the same novice street and track performance. The 718 will be produced for at least 3 years and with a Carrera engine that is built alongside the new 992 engine. If Porsche as learned anything, it will use this as a controlled cash cow and satisfy anyone who wants one...as long as they have patience. They will reserve the GT3 as the "special" allocation controlled vehicle.

The CS doesn't hold value well because the base and competition models are so similar.

If they never made a single base m3/4 and m3/m4 comp pack then the limited CS would hold value much better. But they do make the base models. Same with the M2.

The 1M was very limited, very unique, unique story, "last of", and there was no mass produced similar car.

[Jagudelo12]

Yea this is the best answer ^ and it hit nail on head .

[Rupes]

I've tried playing the "guess what car will hold its value" game long enough to know I have a very bad track record. Now I just buy cars I enjoy and don't worry as much about the probability of the car holding its value (honestly, you're very likely to lose there).

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Jagudelo12

Basically wondering if M2CS has any chance to hold its value and not depreciate like others? Any chance it's special like that?

I don't believe so. It's too similar to all the current offerings BMW has today. It's just another snazzy version of everything else that BMW is putting out. More power, nice but that's like adding a bigger turbo to a P-51 in the Jet age. Yes it will go faster, but we are in the electric age now.

The pursuit of just more power is foolish. Gucci gloved Java programmers in their Teslas can roast just about everything out there so it is a silly pursuit. Even the M3 can now be roasted by a Tesla on the track.

So it will be a nice internal combustion car but for many petrol heads just does nothing to excite.

While you don't get the 1M, no offense taken, and even despite a basic motor it was radical departure from the previous M cars. So to help you understand it, let's go back to 2011.

Every M car before that had come up to the 1M was bigger and heavier and more tech laden with automatics, dynamic suspensions, etc etc.

All of sudden the 1M comes out and it smaller and lighter.
It uses two turbos, a BMW M first.
Unlike the 3 previous M cars was only offered in a MANual gearbox.
No sunroof...every single one was a slicktop
They incorporated air curtains, the first production car to do that and now every single car just about made today has them.
It was the last M car with hydraulic steering
It was the last M car without fake cabin sound
It came with an oil temp gauge right on the dash
It was offered with lighter manual seats with lower seating position at no charge
It was offered without idrive and screen on top of dash

So the 1M is chock full of "firsts" and "lasts"

As far as personality goes, yes the M2 probably drive's better and definitely easier to drive at the limit than the 1M. it has more turbo lag but you could make the same case that the Cayman is a better handling car, yet there is something more enjoyable about the M2 being less refined than the cayman which is appealing and that extrapolates further to the 1M where it is even more pure and crude than both...and more fun to drive around town. Not just me saying that. Chris Harris has a whole video on it and paid M2 money for a used 1M himself.

So the best car in the world is the one YOU like and the one YOU "get" but there are really no new firsts or lasts that I can see from the M2CS. Perhaps if you buy a manual one and in 6 years when no one sells a manual, then perhaps it will have a better value than others cars. Sorry, you don't get the 1M, the M2 is there because of the 1M and amazed people don't even see that.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

Now comparing to the CS, there has been a lot of speculation that it's a North American only model. At 2,200, it's a lot just for NA. I'm obviously hoping it won't depreciate too much as it's the first "special" limited M2. But we shall wait and see.

The quoted 2,200 figure = worldwide (not USA only). Alike the base M2 & M2C: EUR lefthand drive, EUR righthand drive and USA lefthand drive.

Another important aspect about the 1M: price-point / great value for money. Financially, the 1M was/is more 'attainable' for most budgets. Prior to writing a check for an M2 CS, you will normally also look into other options and compare (cross-shopping, even within the brand: as we all know, the G80 M3 is also on its way).

And a, say, 20% depreciation hit on a 100K car is twice the amount in money of the same 20% depreciation hit on a 50K car. So instead of talking in %, better talk in cash. Your bank account features money, rather than percentages.

Everyone is curious about the M2 CS price-point. E46 M3 CSL, M3 CS and M4 CS: 40-50% increase compared to the M base model price. BMW itself didn't encounter issues in selling those cars to BMW M dealers. The problem was further down the line: selling those pricey cars to customers (apart from the coin-flippers). Possibly, this time around, BMW M dealers may try to secure an M2 CS customer order in advance, in order to avoid the car taking dust inside their showroom longer than usual.

Repost (March 2019):

Originally Posted by Artemis

Keep in mind the EOP (end of production) timing of the F80 M3 / F82 M4 + the S55 engine also moving towards the end of its life-cycle. As we know, the S55 engine was detuned to 410hp for the M2 Competition, but that was still a 40hp power bump compared to the N55 engine of the original M2 (370hp). And successful sales and reception of the M2 and M2 Competition + M Performance Parts prove that an interesting niche market exists for BMW M.
As the stars are (favorably) lined up this way in 2019/2020, the M2 CS can be allowed more freedom privileges than usual in the BMW M pecking order (the "don't step over its bigger brother's toes" philosophy perfected by car manufacturers): 450hp S55 = a 40hp power bump compared to the 410hp S55 M2 Competition and an 80hp power bump compared to the 370hp N55 M2. And M2 CS production will inevitably be limited in time as the F87 gets closer to EOP (production of as many as the production facility and production time allows, so no preset "1 of x" limited production figure).
The M3 CS and M4 CS price setting was steep, though the power bump was limited. The power bump for the M2 CS is more significant. And some goodies are thrown into the mix that were previously (made) unavailable from factory (CF roof, Adaptive M Suspension, CCBs, CF splitter, CF spoiler, 763M wheels, etc.), bringing 'aftermarket' to 'the market' (stock from factory). So we may expect BMW to also charge a considerable CS premium for the CS badge on the M2 CS. I expect the M2 CS to sell better than the M3 CS and M4 CS. BMW can allow itself to charge M3/M4 money for it.
That's my take on it.

[RocketTR]

Originally Posted by Rupes

I've tried playing the "guess what car will hold its value" game long enough to know I have a very bad track record. Now I just buy cars I enjoy and don't worry as much about the probability of the car holding its value (honestly, you're very likely to lose there).

I think anything with a manual transmission will hold value to some degree. Too many enthusiasts out there who want to own/drive manual transmission vehicles and the pool to choose from is getting smaller and smaller every year. And imagine when ICE cars are no longer produced in our future electric world. At that point, a manual transmission car should hold a lot of value for the enthusiast crowd.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by RocketTR

I think anything with a manual transmission will hold value to some degree. Too many enthusiasts out there who want to own/drive manual transmission vehicles and the pool to choose from is getting smaller and smaller every year. And imagine when ICE cars are no longer produced in our future electric world. At that point, a manual transmission car should hold a lot of value for the enthusiast crowd.

The reality is unless the car in question is a pristine, low mileage example that's been garaged it's entire life you aren't going to see any sort of ICE vehicle regardless of transmission hold considerable value. By the time all vehicles are electric most cars we are discussing today will exist only as recycled metal except the ones that were stored and never driven. Cars are the worst investment consumers make and there's really no getting around the fact that you are losing money the moment you drive your new car off the lot and you can't enjoy a car knowing that then don't buy it.

[Karmic Man]

ICE going in the next 10-20 years? No, not in our lifetime according to Toyota

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels.../#33f95fc73a3d

BMW also thinks there is plenty of lifeline left for our beloved gasoline dinosaurs

https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/06/27/b...ouple-decades/

[Rupes]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

The reality is unless the car in question is a pristine, low mileage example that's been garaged it's entire life you aren't going to see any sort of ICE vehicle regardless of transmission hold considerable value. By the time all vehicles are electric most cars we are discussing today will exist only as recycled metal except the ones that were stored and never driven. Cars are the worst investment consumers make and there's really no getting around the fact that you are losing money the moment you drive your new car off the lot and you can't enjoy a car knowing that then don't buy it.

Totally agree, plus people forget it still takes work (money) to keep and maintain a garage queen. All the while, it's still depreciating, albeit at a lower rate than other cars.

I'll take my chances with the stock market for a better/more predictable return and keep my cars strictly for enjoyment.

[RPM33]

I don't think it will hold much value because eventually there will be a G87 M2 in late 2022. Eventually the G87 M2 will get a CS version and maybe a CSL version. This may not be until late 2024 at the earliest so a long way away. Me personally I'm interested in F87 M2 CS for driving thrills not any investment appreciation.

[JCZ5]

Valid points, but I would bring up examples of vintage Porsche, like 964. Many high mileage and dilapidated versions have gone up considerably.

Let's just see if anyone can resto mod modern M cars in the future with their abundance of tech

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

ICE going in the next 10-20 years? No, not in our lifetime according to Toyota

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels.../#33f95fc73a3d

BMW also thinks there is plenty of lifeline left for our beloved gasoline dinosaurs

https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/06/27/b...ouple-decades/

yeah, meanwhile BMW CEO steps down getting its ass kicked by Tesla

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by akkando

yeah, meanwhile BMW CEO steps down getting its ass kicked by Tesla

Tesla lost $702 million in their 2019 1st quarter. Trust me no manufacturer is trying to emulate their model or is envious of their situation.

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by RPM33

I don't think it will hold much value because eventually there will be a G87 M2 in late 2022. Eventually the G87 M2 will get a CS version and maybe a CSL version. This may not be until late 2024 at the earliest so a long way away. Me personally I'm interested in F87 M2 CS for driving thrills not any investment appreciation.

. I think this car is going to be a lot of fun.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

ICE going in the next 10-20 years? No, not in our lifetime according to Toyota
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels.../#33f95fc73a3d
BMW also thinks there is plenty of lifeline left for our beloved gasoline dinosaurs
https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/06/27/b...ouple-decades/

Beware of being overly optimistic about ICE (internal combustion engine) cars: the list of countries and towns planning to ban fossil fuel vehicles (road driving or even sale) is growing: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phas..._fuel_vehicles

The car industry wants you to still buy today their ICE cars. Hence, unsurprisingly they got a commercial interest in pretending that ICE cars still got a future of decades ahead. All it takes is some legislation changes. Look at tightened EU emissions regulations that forced BMW in unexpectedly abandoning the N55 and offering the S55 version (which was initally scheduled to be called "M2 CS") as "M2 Competition" back in 2018.

For example in my country the government of the Brussels region announced yesterday the ambition to ban all diesel cars by 2030 and all gasoline cars by 2035. So whether still on sale or not: you can no longer access public roads anymore (or at least not without paying some deterring toll - new source of income for towns, alike in the Middle Ages). In my country, the majority of sold cars are no longer diesel cars. Resale value of diesel cars is decreasing.

Hopefully legislators will implement so-called 'grandfather clauses': exempting certain pre-existing classes of cars from the new legislative requirements. But don't take that for granted. Worldwide there could also be financial incentives: taxing the (already high) fuel prices prohibitively high, 'encouraging' most people to abandon buying/using ICE cars.

Things can change quickly: check how much paper post you received a decade ago at your office or at home and compare with today. Or how the telephone market changed in the last decade because of evolving smartphones with touch screens gaining popularity.

So, though plans could remain plans or be delayed, I think that we all got to realize that ICE cars are on their way out, or will at least not be easy to hold on to. Car manufacturers gotta adapt or go extinct. Sales figures will show them the way.