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      02-26-2019, 09:01 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
You're right, when members in the M4 forum suggest getting an M2C, they perceive it as taking a step down.. Sort of like how M2 owners look down on 240i drivers. The arrogance is quite an amusing observation on human nature.

Since they already announced the S58 and the new G series M4 mule was just seen being winter tested, I assume they're going to release it to coincide with the M2 CS, so it doesn't overlap in competition.
The big difference there is that the ...35/40i, in whatever trim, is some limp wristed, half-assed sales gimmick. Just like the Audi S line...BMW even made marketing literature to show the parallel.

On the other hand...an M is an M, and it's different. If someone thinks their ...35/40i is the same, they just don't get it.
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      02-26-2019, 09:20 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
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Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
MY2020 M4 Comp Pack pricing starts at $74K. If this car starts in the $70s, it'll absolutely kill the M4 sales. M2 CS will be lighter, have more power, and be more capable on the track. Honestly, even if the pricing starts in the $80s I would still choose this over an M4 any day. Really curious how BMW is gonna price it.
I don't know, I actually don't think there's a ton of cross shopping from M4 buyers. From my time at the other forum, there seems to be a huge portion of M4 buyers that are really image conscious and wouldn't be seen dead in a "2 series" even if it was faster and cheaper.
You're right, when members in the M4 forum suggest getting an M2C, they perceive it as taking a step down.. Sort of like how M2 owners look down on 240i drivers. The arrogance is quite an amusing observation on human nature.

Since they already announced the S58 and the new G series M4 mule was just seen being winter tested, I assume they're going to release it to coincide with the M2 CS, so it doesn't overlap in competition.
I agree with this unfortunately. I came from an M4 Comp and the interior of my M2C is almost identical to my M4. Probably because I don't care one bit about HUD or what leather my seats have. On the other hand, as you mentioned, the way quite a few M3/M4 owners describe their cars' interior compared to the M2 almost sounds like they are downgrading from an S-class.
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      02-26-2019, 09:27 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
You're right, when members in the M4 forum suggest getting an M2C, they perceive it as taking a step down.. Sort of like how M2 owners look down on 240i drivers. The arrogance is quite an amusing observation on human nature.

Since they already announced the S58 and the new G series M4 mule was just seen being winter tested, I assume they're going to release it to coincide with the M2 CS, so it doesn't overlap in competition.
The big difference there is that the ...35/40i, in whatever trim, is some limp wristed, half-assed sales gimmick. Just like the Audi S line...BMW even made marketing literature to show the parallel.

On the other hand...an M is an M, and it's different. If someone thinks their ...35/40i is the same, they just don't get it.
I wasn't arguing the difference between vehicles, I was merely contrasting how it's perceived in comparison from M4 to M2 owners.

They're both BMWs and is not some exotic, 1/2 million dollar super car, so it's tone-deaf to believe that one owner is superior to other because of what level of series they choose to drive.
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      02-26-2019, 09:32 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
MY2020 M4 Comp Pack pricing starts at $74K. If this car starts in the $70s, it'll absolutely kill the M4 sales. M2 CS will be lighter, have more power, and be more capable on the track. Honestly, even if the pricing starts in the $80s I would still choose this over an M4 any day. Really curious how BMW is gonna price it.
I don't know, I actually don't think there's a ton of cross shopping from M4 buyers. From my time at the other forum, there seems to be a huge portion of M4 buyers that are really image conscious and wouldn't be seen dead in a "2 series" even if it was faster and cheaper. The interior is a pretty big difference as well. Plus, the M4 is getting a little old and they were being discounted last I checked.

On the flip side, there are a number of people on the M2 forums here that wouldn't consider an M4 because of size alone.

You still might be right, though.
Coming from an M4 owner, they're very different cars. Also, I spend way more time in the M2/M2C forums than the M3/4 forums.

I don't think of my M4 as a hard core sports car. I think of it as a sporty GT car. It's fast, comfortable, and quite luxurious. I've tracked it a handful of times, but it's just too big to really enjoy on my local track.

I was offered the first OG M2 back in December 2015 (before they hit dealers), but ultimately got my M4 due to the luxury features, all of the leather, heads up display, nicer seats, etc. Now that the M2C has caught up with everything except HUD, it's an interesting comparison. Who knows if we'll ever have another M2 after the F87?

Last summer I had the opportunity to drive an OG M2 M-Performance edition at that same track (full works from Cup 2s, 763M wheels, coil-overs). It was hands down the best car I've ever driven on track. I've had minimal seat time in the M2C, but from my initial impressions, it is a better driver's car than the OG M2 and the M4. Its just tighter, better steering, better chassis, etc. That's why I'm so interested in adding the CS.
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      02-26-2019, 09:55 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
Feel free to check BMW ETK. This has been discussed before. CCB save about 18lbs over the blue M3/M4 brakes, which are already ~35lbs lighter than silver M2C brakes. So 50+lbs savings in total. Bigger brakes is one of the biggest contributors to the weight increase on M2C (other one is the dual pipe exhaust sustem) and it's the reason why I immediately sold my stock M2C brakes and went with much lighter aftermarket BBK.
This pretty surprising, on the Porsche side the switch to CCB is about 35lbs, so I was assuming it was similar.

I would MUCH rather do what you did though if I tracked the car a lot and didn't drive in the winter. On the street it just doesn't matter.
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      02-27-2019, 01:19 AM   #248
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Added to the first post of this thread:
---------------
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
M2 CS will have adaptive suspension like M3/M4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
± 445 hp (mechanical) = ± 450 hp (metric).
---------------

The dummy/blank button on the center console of the M2 Competition = Adaptive M Suspension button on the M2 CS center console.

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      02-27-2019, 02:00 AM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92_m3 View Post
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the price for this car will end up over $70k with dealer markup. That's GS vette, Camaro ZL1 territory pricing. You could also save $10K by getting a gt350, with 526 HP.

Specs look good on paper nonetheless! Manual option makes it even better.

Just really curious on the final MSRP for the M2 CS...
I think it'll start over 70k BEFORE sealer markups. I highly doubt BMW would make the M3/4 CS 30k more than the base model but the M2CS only 10k more than the M2C unless they're either starting a new trend or sacrificing some stuff from the M2CS.

I hope I'm wrong though because I might want to get into an M2CS in a few years and would prefer to pay less.

As far as your comparisons, it depends on your needs. If you're looking for a track car, then there are definitely better options. If you're looking for a daily, with the occasional track sessions, then I'd stick with the M2C/S, personally. The interior quality between a BMW and a Chevy/Ford is VERY noticeable. Speaking from personal experience.
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      02-27-2019, 02:10 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
I think it'll start over 70k BEFORE sealer markups. I highly doubt BMW would make the M3/4 CS 30k more than the base model but the M2CS only 10k more than the M2C unless they're either starting a new trend or sacrificing some stuff from the M2CS.

I hope I'm wrong though because I might want to get into an M2CS in a few years and would prefer to pay less.
M3/M4 CS wasn't exactly flying off the dealerships and into people's home like they had anticipated...lots have to be heavily discounted before they will move

Perhaps now they realise there is more money on the table by cutting down the CS tax and sell more volumes
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      02-27-2019, 02:38 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by M2taz View Post
The CCB's are actually a big part of why I'm wanting to get a CS. I have a 2017 M2 with Dinan stage 4 and the brakes are a limiting factor on the street and track. I do run track pads but the whole braking system just gets worked over during track days. Power will be similar though but with more potential. If you've ever priced upgrading your brakes, $8k is about the norm in most cases so it's not actually unreasonable. This is all speculation so who knows what the finial pricing will be.
Yeah, like cntzl said, if you are tracking CCBs a lot you will go broke. An additional problem with them is that you cannot even easily tell that they are worn to the point of needing replacement. The wear indicators are hard to interpret and technically the most accurate way is to weigh the discs and compare to when new. It's a bit much for me...

If you are tracking then just get AP Racing brakes. They will take a beating vs stock and you won't cry when you have to replace the rotors.

I think the only way I'd get a car with CCBs is if I was leasing it and driving it on the street only. Let the next guy deal with replacement, lol.

Also, if you are really fading the brakes on the street then you might be tempting fate... upgrade the OEM pads first to something that can take a little bit of heat but are still safe cold like DS2500.
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      02-27-2019, 02:46 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Agreed - except, most M4 buyers really want a 911 and can't afford that lease, much less, purchase payment. wonder how they will all react when they see the different economics associated with the G82.

The M2, in any guise, is the modern M3. Leave it to people who "get it"
Hey, I can't blame them, if I could afford a 911 without feeling dumb about spending that much on a car I'd be at Rennlist already .

But yeah, there are a ton of "bros" attracted to the M4 who are posting asking if they can afford the lease payment...
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      02-27-2019, 02:51 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lapoune View Post
This pretty surprising, on the Porsche side the switch to CCB is about 35lbs, so I was assuming it was similar.

I would MUCH rather do what you did though if I tracked the car a lot and didn't drive in the winter. On the street it just doesn't matter.
BMW is taking a cheaper route on the calipers vs Porsche I think. If you look at the BMW calipers they are HUGE but I don't think they are Brembo's most weight optimized design and the 2NH silver calipers are using steel pistons not titanium pistons.

They compensate with overkill thermal mass. Of course, it does help that the 911 and 718 Porsches can make better use of the rear brakes.
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      02-27-2019, 05:14 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Nantucket View Post
I think they will definitely be the M3 Competition seats with the holes.It looks like they will have a mixture of Alcantara and Leather on the seats based on what ynguldyn said in his initial post.
More likely to be M4cs / M4GTS seats IMO, with the alcantara side bolsters and ///M stripes on the headrests.

Further, M3 seats are a no go in a 2-door since they don't tilt forward.
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      02-27-2019, 05:18 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Interesting.

± 445 hp (mechanical) = ± 450 hp (metric).

So the M2 CS will have a power output of at least 450hp.
Same tune as the M3/4 competition package I assume...
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      02-27-2019, 05:27 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
CS wheels, CF hood, and CF roof are all part of the M performance parts for M2. You can even buy them today except for the roof, which will be available this summer. Steering, diff etc. enhancements can all be coded. Tuners already are able to export oem maps from from ZCP, CS, GTS cars and make them available to public. Would this risk your warranty? Of course it would. Don't get me wrong, CS is a great package and depending on the pricing, this might attract a lot of buyers (even current M2C owners). However, for example, there is not a single thing that is available on the M3/M4 CS and cannot be added to the other M3/M4 models. I believe this will be the case for the M2CS and M2C as well. If you are after the CS badge and willing to pay the premium then it's the way to go but saying "Much more than a warranty voiding tune and carbon fiber bits go into a CS" is not very accurate because that's pretty much it. Many people, like myself, are only interested in the tune, CF bits, and other enhancements that can be easily coded (steering, diff etc). Not interested in any of those fancy interior trim pieces or the CS badge. The biggest appeal of CS IMO is being able to retain the factory warranty while having a nice tune and I'm totally ok with risking my warranty if M2CS will be priced similar to how M3/M4 CS is priced. And finally, I don't think anybody is claiming a modded M2C is an M2CS but it sure can perform like one after the adding the changes I mentioned above.
MSRP is not a good indication, what they go for in the market is.

For my part, it would not have been possible to upgrade a new M4 to make it a CS for less money than the premium I paid for my M4cs.

That being said, if one already owns an M2, it could indeed be less expensive for that owner to upgrade some elements of his car to make it almost a CS for less money (and if willing to sacrifice warranty).
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      02-27-2019, 07:29 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntzl View Post
I agree with this unfortunately. I came from an M4 Comp and the interior of my M2C is almost identical to my M4. Probably because I don't care one bit about HUD or what leather my seats have. On the other hand, as you mentioned, the way quite a few M3/M4 owners describe their cars' interior compared to the M2 almost sounds like they are downgrading from an S-class.
I have an F80 and my dad has an OG M2 LCI...I think there are small differences between the interiors, but I don't think the 3er's is miles ahead or anything like that. I don't have extended leather in the M3, so maybe that's where the difference starts to become more noticeable? Not sure...

I have gotten pretty used to the HUD - I thought it was a little gimmicky in the beginning...but I use it every single day and hardly ever look all the way down at my gauge cluster. It's the main difference I notice (from an interior perspective) when I drive my dad's car. Not a deal breaker by any means, but I think that's the one thing I would miss from the F80.
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      02-27-2019, 09:22 AM   #258
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Definitely interested in upgrading to the CS now that it's offered in a manual.
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      02-27-2019, 09:37 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Actually yes. I totally forgot that the existing M2 models have fixed suspension. M2 CS will have adaptive suspension like M3/M4.
......
You omitted what for me what the single most important missing factor for me in my old 1M and now my M2!

Providing there is a setting for just how it is now and a firmer once for more progressive driving, I'd buy the M2 CS for this option alone.

Cheers for the info.
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      02-27-2019, 09:41 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by as7920 View Post
You omitted what for me what the single most important missing factor for me in my old 1M and now my M2!

Providing there is a setting for just how it is now and a firmer once for more progressive driving, I'd buy the M2 CS for this option alone.

Cheers for the info.
Honestly, I am completely underwhelmed by the adaptive suspension on the F80 - I really can't tell when I switch between the different modes. It's always in Sport + for me, and I would assume I would do the same in the M2CS, should I decide to try and get one.
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      02-27-2019, 10:12 AM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2taz View Post
The CCB's are actually a big part of why I'm wanting to get a CS. I have a 2017 M2 with Dinan stage 4 and the brakes are a limiting factor on the street and track. I do run track pads but the whole braking system just gets worked over during track days. Power will be similar though but with more potential. If you've ever priced upgrading your brakes, $8k is about the norm in most cases so it's not actually unreasonable. This is all speculation so who knows what the finial pricing will be.
You could just get an aftermarket steel BBK if the blue brakes are insufficient. You'd have to be loaded to run the factory CCB for track work, replacing 8K rotors a few times a year. If you have that much coin step up to a GT3 or dedicated track car (Radical, Stohr etc).
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      02-27-2019, 10:25 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I wasn't arguing the difference between vehicles, I was merely contrasting how it's perceived in comparison from M4 to M2 owners.

They're both BMWs and is not some exotic, 1/2 million dollar super car, so it's tone-deaf to believe that one owner is superior to other because of what level of series they choose to drive.
Got it.

And good point, I agree.
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      02-27-2019, 10:27 AM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Honestly, I am completely underwhelmed by the adaptive suspension on the F80 - I really can't tell when I switch between the different modes. It's always in Sport + for me, and I would assume I would do the same in the M2CS, should I decide to try and get one.
Plus, doesn't it add additional weight?
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      02-27-2019, 10:59 AM   #264
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Never understood the clamoring for adaptive suspension. I have passive on my F80 and love it, less buttons, less weight, less complexity.......
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