[dgm3]

145 M2 CS cars for sale on mobile.de: see here.

Looks like many people thought they would make money on the M2 CS due to the limited production ...but actually you start to see quite a number of new cars below the listed base price (which I believe was around 93,000 Euro in Germany)

EDIT by Artemis
MSRP was €95K in Germany and €96.5K in Belgium. Zero options equals Alpine White with 6MT. Opt for BSM, HS or MB with M-DCT and the MSRP bumped over €100K. Although the EURO-spec car can no longer be ordered right now, it ain't complicated to find one. 158 M2 CS cars for sale on Auto Scout24: see here.

[M3tallicar]

I wonder how many of these are valid, the various sites in the US like cars.com, autotrader, etc have their stock automatically populate into their respective accounts even if the car is pre-sold, it seems to be an automated process with dealer accounts. Sometimes they have pre-determined discounts that factor potential manufacturer rebates available but those too are YMMV based on your qualification to use them.

[Pol]

There are indeed many.

[dgm3]

Originally Posted by M3tallicar

I wonder how many of these are valid, the various sites in the US like cars.com, autotrader, etc have their stock automatically populate into their respective accounts even if the car is pre-sold, it seems to be an automated process with dealer accounts. Sometimes they have pre-determined discounts that factor potential manufacturer rebates available but those too are YMMV based on your qualification to use them.

Can't answer this ...may be some German folks can help.

Look at that specific one.
https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/d...1-6c907316f25e
Seems to be a BMW dealer selling 11,000 Euro below the listed price

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by M3tallicar

I wonder how many of these are valid, the various sites in the US like cars.com, autotrader, etc have their stock automatically populate into their respective accounts even if the car is pre-sold, it seems to be an automated process with dealer accounts. Sometimes they have pre-determined discounts that factor potential manufacturer rebates available but those too are YMMV based on your qualification to use them.

Yes, this was the case with a dealership in Georgia. Both cars sold, but still listed for sale.

[M3tallicar]

DCT discount.

Originally Posted by dgm3

Can't answer this ...may be some German folks can help.

Look at that specific one.
https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/d...1-6c907316f25e
Seems to be a BMW dealer selling 11,000 Euro below the listed price

[dgm3]

Originally Posted by M3tallicar

DCT discount.

Do not think so believe in Europe DCT will outsell 6 speed

[Artemis]

As commented earlier:

Originally Posted by Artemis

I could be mistaken, but it looks like the US got allocated more M2 CS than initially scheduled.

Sales of the 1M was a totally different story (2011-2012): initially 2700 were scheduled, but demand in 2011 turned out so high that BMW decided to make as many as possible, ramping up production in September 2011, all the way till June 2012: 6309 cars. The US got 740 cars (2011 only). And in the end not all demand could be met due to production capacity limitations. Demand for the 1M also remained strong afterwards, explaining the unusually high resale price for the 1M, even today.

In contrast, M2 CS demand is lukewarm over here. It's a hard seller. The reason has been discussed to death: people like the M2 CS (no doubt about that, it is a cool piece of kit), but dislike the immodest price-tag (compared to the 1M, OG M2 and M2C). Several 0 mile / low mile M2 CS start popping up on car sales websites in Europe, and most of the ads flaunt the "limited edition" tag-line (see for example here). The coin flippers breed is hoping for a frenzy, which is not gonna happen (just like it didn't happen for the M4 GTS, M4 CS and M3 CS).

For me the tell-tale sign was to notice how BMW 'struggled' to find buyers since September 2019 (preview) and November 2019 (launch) for the 131 cars allocated for Belgium and Luxembourg, despite being discounted and despite the genuine qualities of this Über M2. The expected quick sell-out did not materialize. In the end some BMW M dealers filled the gap and look(ed) for customers.

The USA is a different market.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Artemis

As commented earlier:

For me the tell-tale sign was to notice how BMW 'struggled' to find buyers since September 2019 (preview) and November 2019 (launch) for the 131 cars allocated for Belgium and Luxembourg, despite being discounted and despite the genuine qualities of this Über M2. The expected quick sell-out did not materialize. In the end some BMW M dealers filled the gap and look(ed) for customers.
The USA is a different market.

The M3 CS was dead in the water here too. There were massive lease incentives offered such that in late 2018 you could lease a $100k M3 CS cheaper than a $62k M2C for a while. I guess we'll soon see what the real demand level is here for the M2 CS.

[Hedoniste]

The « problem » is that the price of this car is clearly « G82 like » so I believe potential customers in this budget are waiting G82. This is perfectly understandable for the lot who want the new tech and the S58.
I skip the GTS/GT4 « competitor » because I think CS or M4 customers need 4 seats.
I have to say I had some hesitation with G8x since I like new tech too. But the (front) look, size and weight changed my mind plus I had a heartbeat when seeing the CS in real life.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

The M3 CS was dead in the water here too. There were massive lease incentives offered such that in late 2018 you could lease a $100k M3 CS cheaper than a $62k M2C for a while. I guess we'll soon see what the real demand level is here for the M2 CS.

Originally Posted by Hedoniste

The « problem » is that the price of this car is clearly « G82 like » so I believe potential customers in this budget are waiting G82. This is perfectly understandable for the lot who want the new tech and the S58.
I skip the GTS/GT4 « competitor » because I think CS or M4 customers need 4 seats.
I have to say I had some hesitation with G8x since I like new tech too. But the (front) look, size and weight changed my mind plus I had a heartbeat when seeing the CS in real life.

Part of the explanation and equation is also taxes.

In Europe (and also several other parts of the world) cars like the M2 CS, the Cayman GT4 and the new M3/M4 are heavily taxed (apart from VAT, several countries impose a purchase or emissions tax, annual road tax, etc.) + are more and more fiscally discouraged.

No such tight tax/fiscal policies exist (yet) in the US. At some point, those incentives have a tipping-point effect: part of the people who considered buying those cars, don't buy it in the end. Ask yourself as a US citizen who's into the market to buy a fully kitted-out M2 CS: are you willing to fork out $178K for the car as in The Netherlands (€150,595 - see the picture below of this M2 CS) ?

As noted before:

Originally Posted by Artemis

The 1M costs/cost almost half the M2 CS price: financially more attainable for most car enthusiasts. And that was 2011.

Now it's 2020 and the M2 CS operates in a different price-range. A price-range where enthusiasts usually look into several options (competing car brands) and where only (very) few cars encounter limited depreciation (think for example the 981 Cayman GT4, but still). OK, the M2 CS is The Über M2, the #1 in the F87 pecking order. But with its immodest price-tag for a BMW 2-series, it has some big shoes to fill.

If you're truly lusting for an M2 CS or M3 CS and money is no issue, consider getting it as investment in driving fun. You only live once, some even don't. As a financial investment it will get you IMHO a poor return, as most cars (except if you manage to get a huge discount). Don't gamble on limited car depreciation, except if the money can be missed.

And about halo cars from the past increasing in value or holding well value: wake up in the 2020-2030 decade: emission taxes on the rise, leasing high performance ICE cars getting fiscally discouraged, cities and towns gradually restricting high performance ICE cars, exhaust sounds further muzzled in Europe and COVID-19 shifting the paradigm of priorities for lots of people.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Ask yourself as a US citizen who's into the market to buy a fully kitted-out M2 CS: are you willing to fork out $178K for the car as in The Netherlands (€150,595) ?

Nope! Definitely not. Although, wages/taxes/price of goods may all make the comparison a little less apples to apples, but assuming things were close I would not.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

Nope! Definitely not. Although, wages/taxes/price of goods may all make the comparison a little less apples to apples, but assuming things were close I would not.

That's why IMHO M2 CS discussions on forums and on social media sometimes feature a 'lost in translation' hiccup: we're talking about exactly the same epic car, but its keys change hands for a different amount of dosh on each side of the Atlantic.

Despite being discussed ad nauseam as the proverbial elephant in the room: cost (purchase price, taxes and fiscal regimes) is inevitably a significant part of the equation for most people when buying a special car, apart from the emotions of (potential) ownership and driving fun. Sense and sensibility. No money, no honey.

[Hedoniste]

@Artemis

Yes taxes play a big factor. This is a shame because there aren't true alternatives yet regarding this type of cars. As these cars only concern « rich » people they don't really care.
I paid mine under 90'000€ (which still pricy). I wouldn't buy this car if it costs me above 100k euro for sure.

[AxM2CS]

Artemis, that price is breathtaking. Though I'm very fortunate to be in a position that I could buy it without duress, I can't imagine paying much more than $100K USD for this car (noting mine is without CCB and DCT). $150,000+ will fetch you a pretty nice 28-foot cabin cruiser (if you're into that sort of thing). Serious money.

[robertm]

So in Switzerland you pay 90,000 euro and in Netherlands you pay 150,000? I don't understand that at all. Swiss still need to pay taxes, how can it be that much more tax? That's like over 50% more.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by Artemis

That's why IMHO M2 CS discussions on forums and on social media sometimes feature a 'lost in translation' hiccup: we're talking about exactly the same epic car, but its keys change hands for a different amount of dosh on each side of the Atlantic.

Despite being discussed ad nauseam as the proverbial elephant in the room: cost (purchase price, taxes and fiscal regimes) is inevitably a significant part of the equation for most people when buying a special car, apart from the emotions of (potential) ownership and driving fun. Sense and sensibility. No money, no honey.

Yep, I agree. I also think the market prices like this lead to many of the things you've referenced in other posts with extra discounts etc because of demand differences. Always a complicated topic.

For me personally I had set a budget in the 80-100k range and said "what is best FOR ME" in that range and after doing the research and test drives was happiest with the CS. Value propositions be damned in some cases . Over 100K and it's a whole different market. Set a hard stop at 70k, also a totally different market. There's an AMAZING set of cars at the 40k mark too.

Sense and sensibility, no money no honey, indeed!

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by robertm

So in Switzerland you pay 90,000 euro and in Netherlands you pay 150,000? I don't understand that at all. Swiss still need to pay taxes, how can it be that much more tax? That's like over 50% more.

The Netherlands:

• BTW = "Belasting Toegevoegde Waarde" = Value Added Tax (VAT);
• BPM = "Belasting van Personenauto's en Motorrijtuigen" = Tax on Cars and Motor vehicles (environmental tax calculated on the basis of net catalogue value + CO2 value).

Now what the papers said (see this video @ 02:49):

• Price specified vehicle:
• Net price without BTW/BPM: €91,296.39
• BTW (21% on €91,245.29): €19,161.52
• BPM: €40,137.00
  Total: €150,595.00 (± $178K)

So, Dutch taxes on that full-option M2 CS (also featuring M-CCB): €59,298.52 (± $70K).



In France a €20K "grey card" tax (± $23.6K) is charged for an M2 CS, which will apparently be further raised to €40K ($47.2K) in 2021 when purchasing this type of car.

Originally Posted by dgm3

Let's see the positive side... In 2021 the tax will be 40,000 Euro so two months and a half actually saves 20,000 Euro

This cool French M2 CS owner was taken by surprise: see 12:49-13:09:
"What hurts is the 20.000 EUR for the 'carte grise'. And it was not particularly foreseen because the order was made before the [tax] change. On January 1st [2020] they [the French tax authorities] raised their tariff. And so it was a 'small surprise' at delivery."

[Hedoniste]

Originally Posted by robertm

So in Switzerland you pay 90,000 euro and in Netherlands you pay 150,000? I don't understand that at all. Swiss still need to pay taxes, how can it be that much more tax? That's like over 50% more.

We have taxes... (new G8x are significantly more expensive than F8x for example - like 15-20%).
The problem is that several countries are doing some sort of protectionism with their « ecological » taxes (like France). Taxes are fine if we have infrastructures and enough electrical cars alternatives. But for now the only true electric car that you can buy is Tesla...
Still, at the end of the day, nobody can argue that cars are ecological. This is a vast hypocrisy. I am not totally against electrification but I believe some EU countries are a bit too demagogic with their « ecological taxes ».

[dgm3]

Originally Posted by Artemis

In France a €20K "grey card" tax (± $23.6K) is charged for an M2 CS, which will apparently be further raised to €40K ($47.2K) in 2021 when purchasing this type of car.

What is crazy in France is the rate of change of the malus CO2 tax :
- 10.5K in 2019
- 20K in 2020
- 40K in 2021
- 50K in 2022
...They really want to kill this (small) market segment

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by dgm3

What is crazy in France is the rate of change of the malus CO2 tax :
- 10.5K in 2019
- 20K in 2020
- 40K in 2021
- 50K in 2022
...They really want to kill this (small) market segment

Well, that escalated quickly. Iceberg ahead for BMW M dealers in France.

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Well, that escalated quickly. Iceberg ahead for BMW M dealers in France.

Only a matter of time before it happens everywhere. California is already looking at trying to ban ice sales in a very not to distant future.