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      01-18-2017, 08:36 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Tengocity View Post
Most of the work on those would have been signed off before he joined. The design work on these cars is finished some time before launch.
He went back to BMW in 2011, so fair enough for the 5 series GT, maybe not the 3 series GT, definitely not for the 2 series Active Tourer... Did I mention the i3??
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      01-18-2017, 08:40 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW View Post
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Originally Posted by Tengocity View Post
Most of the work on those would have been signed off before he joined. The design work on these cars is finished some time before launch.
He went back to BMW in 2011, so fair enough for the 5 series GT, maybe not the 3 series GT, definitely not for the 2 series Active Tourer... Did I mention the i3??
Ha! Well I actually like the i3, and not sure anyone could make the 2AT look good!

I think the blandness of the new 7 is unavoidably his fault though.
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      01-18-2017, 08:41 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Tengocity View Post
Sure, if they're not cost constrained by accountants, or realities of cost effective production.

Most of the details we all criticise design wise are compromises to allow for production simplicity and cost effectiveness. No designer wants a clunky bonnet shutline, but it's not always his call.

The head of design though is about a vision and design language, the identity of the cars moving with the times, and in BMWs case leading the way. I don't see that happening and that's my issue.
The head of design, if he's such a man should have enough influence to the engineering team to find solutions for his vision. Of course there are cost compromises involved, but for the inelegant hood line on the 3 series, you can see that it was solved by magic in the subsequent 7 and 5 and probably in the next 3 series. Design to Production involves a lot of negotiation between design/engineering/accounting/management etc and sometimes the head of design has to stand his ground, especially at such a visible part of the car.

By the way, great designers can also bring ideas to engineering, for example Paul Bracq with his 1972 Turbo design brought the idea of a plastic crumple zone for the nose and rear of the car. Idea that has become reality in all new current cars...

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      01-18-2017, 08:46 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW
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Originally Posted by Tengocity View Post
Most of the work on those would have been signed off before he joined. The design work on these cars is finished some time before launch.
He went back to BMW in 2011, so fair enough for the 5 series GT, maybe not the 3 series GT, definitely not for the 2 series Active Tourer... Did I mention the i3??
I always thought those cars were born from focus group feedback and ultimately management.
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      01-18-2017, 08:46 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengocity View Post
Sure, if they're not cost constrained by accountants, or realities of cost effective production.

Most of the details we all criticise design wise are compromises to allow for production simplicity and cost effectiveness. No designer wants a clunky bonnet shutline, but it's not always his call.

The head of design though is about a vision and design language, the identity of the cars moving with the times, and in BMWs case leading the way. I don't see that happening and that's my issue.
The head of design, if he's such a man should have enough influence to the engineering team to find solutions for his vision. Of course there are cost compromises involved, but for the inelegant hood line on the 3 series, you can see that it was solved by magic in the subsequent 7 and 5 and probably in the next 3 series. Design to Production involves a lot of negotiation between design/engineering/accounting/management etc and sometimes the head of design has to stand his ground, especially at such a visible part of the car.
Always easier on larger margin cars higher up the range. Funny that we are both happy to see him go, but for quite different reasons!

But what the hell do we know.... could just be any number of reasons why he left that are nothing to do with designing cars.

I know lots of people fired from jobs they were good at because of other reasons- fiddling expenses, lack of cultural fit, inappropriate relationships and behaviour, being a crap boss... the list is endless.
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      01-18-2017, 08:50 PM   #138
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I always thought those cars were born from focus group feedback and ultimately management.
The general concept yes, but the design team has to come up with the reality ie shape ;-)
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      01-18-2017, 08:54 PM   #139
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Always easier on larger margin cars higher up the range. Funny that we are both happy to see him go, but for quite different reasons!

But what the hell do we know.... could just be any number of reasons why he left that are nothing to do with designing cars.

I know lots of people fired from jobs they were good at because of other reasons- fiddling expenses, lack of cultural fit, inappropriate relationships and behaviour, being a crap boss... the list is endless.
True. We don't know why he left. He could have been fired (MB performing better, his vision did not convince upper management etc.) or he could have left for personal reasons or taken a better job somewhere...

What I am missing at BMW are cars that capture the imagination. Some models are good looking and sometimes elegant, but I haven't seen a production car for a long time that can be referred as an instant classic. The M2 maybe, but not because of its look...
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      01-18-2017, 09:03 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW View Post
Quote:
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Always easier on larger margin cars higher up the range. Funny that we are both happy to see him go, but for quite different reasons!

But what the hell do we know.... could just be any number of reasons why he left that are nothing to do with designing cars.

I know lots of people fired from jobs they were good at because of other reasons- fiddling expenses, lack of cultural fit, inappropriate relationships and behaviour, being a crap boss... the list is endless.
True. We don't know why he left. He could have been fired (MB performing better, his vision did not convince upper management etc.) or he could have left for personal reasons or taken a better job somewhere...

What I am missing at BMW are cars that capture the imagination. Some models are good looking and sometimes elegant, but I haven't seen a production car for a long time that can be referred as an instant classic. The M2 maybe, but not because of its look...
I agree. There's few, if any, recent BMWs that I want to buy just because they look fantastic. The i8 perhaps, but that was done before he got here.

Thankfully there are plenty that I'd buy because they're great in other respects that are more important.

Whereas the Mercedes-AMG GT is one car that I'd almost want to buy on looks alone.

Does any car really look like an instant classic? Z4M coupe perhaps.

Not sure I'd agree on E46... it took a facelift before it looked great, though it still does look great now.
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      01-18-2017, 09:03 PM   #141
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Quote:
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Sad, but hopefully the new head of design will have BMW move away from their conservatism and create more exciting looking models...
I NOMINATE PAUL! Submit your renders as your application...
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      01-18-2017, 09:13 PM   #142
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My favorite BMW designer, Albrecht Graf von Schlitz genannt von Goertz von Wrisberg (aka Albrecht von Goertz), only designed two cars for the company. One was nice. The other is the most beautiful car ever made.

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      01-18-2017, 09:18 PM   #143
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My favorite BMW designer, Albrecht Graf von Schlitz genannt von Goertz von Wrisberg (aka Albrecht von Goertz), only designed two cars for the company. One was nice. The other is the most beautiful car ever made.

Perhaps it was/is. But that's an opinion now held by many with much passed time. At the time it was launched it wasn't seen that way.

Really difficult to say which of the more modern cars will stand the test of time design wise.
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      01-18-2017, 09:24 PM   #144
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My favorite BMW designer, Albrecht Graf von Schlitz genannt von Goertz von Wrisberg (aka Albrecht von Goertz), only designed two cars for the company. One was nice. The other is the most beautiful car ever made.

Unfortunately his other design for BMW was the 503... An utter failure which almost bankrupted BMW ;-). And he did not do much afterwards...

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      01-18-2017, 09:26 PM   #145
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BMWs are handsome vehicles but they have become somewhat stale, especially their interiors. Audi has the same issue but it's worse from an exterior standpoint. At least Audi interiors look "new" with every redesign.

I'm interested to see where BMW goes from here.
Yes- Audi interiors are much better than BMW and their interface of the MMI is now better.
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      01-18-2017, 09:27 PM   #146
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Perhaps it was/is. But that's an opinion now held by many with much passed time. At the time it was launched it wasn't seen that way.

Really difficult to say which of the more modern cars will stand the test of time design wise.
I can say the Z8 is one such cars. Just by seeing how the classic car market dictates prices. Also not forgotten is the original Z1, probably one of BMW's most innovative designs that unfortunately never was followed up...
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      01-18-2017, 09:28 PM   #147
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I agree. There's few, if any, recent BMWs that I want to buy just because they look fantastic. The i8 perhaps, but that was done before he got here.

Thankfully there are plenty that I'd buy because they're great in other respects that are more important.

Whereas the Mercedes-AMG GT is one car that I'd almost want to buy on looks alone.

Does any car really look like an instant classic? Z4M coupe perhaps.

Not sure I'd agree on E46... it took a facelift before it looked great, though it still does look great now.
For me the E39, especially 540i and M5 is my pinnacle of modern BMW's.
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      01-18-2017, 09:30 PM   #148
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Yes- Audi interiors are much better than BMW and their interface of the MMI is now better.
Not better than the latest 5 series and touch screen + idrive...
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      01-18-2017, 09:39 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengocity View Post
I agree. There's few, if any, recent BMWs that I want to buy just because they look fantastic. The i8 perhaps, but that was done before he got here.

Thankfully there are plenty that I'd buy because they're great in other respects that are more important.

Whereas the Mercedes-AMG GT is one car that I'd almost want to buy on looks alone.

Does any car really look like an instant classic? Z4M coupe perhaps.

Not sure I'd agree on E46... it took a facelift before it looked great, though it still does look great now.
For me the E39, especially 540i and M5 is my pinnacle of modern BMW's.
Agreed. Or for me Maybee the e46m3. One of the cars between those two.
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      01-18-2017, 09:43 PM   #150
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For me the most important designs by BMW's, apart from the 507, M1 and E9 series are the works of Paul Bracq:

- The Turbo, precursor to the M1
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- The E24 6 series (sharknose)
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- The E12 5 series,
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- The E21 3 series
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All of these have a direct link to the BMW's of today...
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      01-18-2017, 09:46 PM   #151
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I NOMINATE PAUL! Submit your renders as your application...
Hahaha, my renders are a bit too realistic and close to production and I'm not a professional designer, albeit I know a bit about car design and its history. Cheers! They need a visionary person!
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      01-18-2017, 09:53 PM   #152
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Yes- Audi interiors are much better than BMW and their interface of the MMI is now better.
Ick, BMW seats as a whole are far better than their Audi counterparts
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      01-18-2017, 09:57 PM   #153
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One interesting fact to note that 2 Canadians are (were) the head of design for major car companies: Ralph Giles for FCA and Karim Habib. Great feat for a country of only 35 million people ;-)
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      01-18-2017, 09:57 PM   #154
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I, too, nominate Paul.

As for von Goertz, the 503 was the predecessor to the E9 (2800 CS and 3.0 CS). That was one beautiful car. My Father bought a 1970 2800 CSA and I liked it so much that two years later I bought a 3.0CS. Which I kept for 29 years. In perfect condition (for a driver).

As for the 507, I've told this sad story before. In 1974 the mechanics who ran Porsche-BMW Specialists, Inc. in Santa Monica (I was their lawyer) got a line on a 507 barn find. If I acted quickly enough I could snatch it up for $5,000. I wanted to do so but my girl friend wanted a new horse.

I was told that the 507 was bought by John M. Stiegler (owner of Auto Stiegler in Encino, CA), who got it running and then sold it for a big profit. I lost track of the car well before the damn horse died.
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