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      07-13-2021, 11:59 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
Motortrend noted the stiffness in the chassis provided by the carbon roof contributed to the directness of the steering response.
If you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you, lol. I’ve driven F80 with carbon roof and with moonroof and it’s the same steering feel.
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      07-14-2021, 12:00 AM   #46
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I just got this month's issue of C/D with the M2 CS vs 718 Cayman GTS 4.0 comparison - some good numbers in summary
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      07-14-2021, 03:20 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
Motortrend noted the stiffness in the chassis provided by the carbon roof contributed to the directness of the steering response.
If you believe that I've got a bridge to sell you, lol. I've driven F80 with carbon roof and with moonroof and it's the same steering feel.
I can compare to my F80 with a moonroof and the CS with the structural carbon roof and they are worlds apart in steering feel. I only drove a F80 with carbon roof a few times on track and was too busy to notice a difference. Differences are not certain to be related but a lower centre of gravity and stiffer chassis will contribute.
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      07-14-2021, 05:45 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
If you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you, lol. I’ve driven F80 with carbon roof and with moonroof and it’s the same steering feel.
F87 CS roof is structural and made of a different material. F80 is cosmetic. So yes, you wouldn't notice any difference on that model. I don't know how much difference each little bit makes but I'm sure it adds up in some way or another. The parts bin comments are amusing. Not sure which bin the one of a kind likely never to be repeated roof came from?
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      07-14-2021, 08:01 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
Motortrend noted the stiffness in the chassis provided by the carbon roof contributed to the directness of the steering response.
I am not a structural engineer, but the CF roof is stiffer than the metal roof? Either way, I've never heard of steering response being better by a stiffer roof. Perhaps, because the car is lighter higher up, yea that would make sense.
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      07-14-2021, 08:15 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
Motortrend noted the stiffness in the chassis provided by the carbon roof contributed to the directness of the steering response.
If you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you, lol. I’ve driven F80 with carbon roof and with moonroof and it’s the same steering feel.
The structural carbon roof on the CS is not like the carbon fiber roof skin applied over a metal frame in other M cars. It replaces the whole metal structure and is more rigid.

Having said that, I don't know how any driver from a magazine could directly attribute a driving characteristic to that specifically.
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      07-14-2021, 09:26 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
F87 CS roof is structural and made of a different material. F80 is cosmetic. So yes, you wouldn't notice any difference on that model. I don't know how much difference each little bit makes but I'm sure it adds up in some way or another. The parts bin comments are amusing. Not sure which bin the one of a kind likely never to be repeated roof came from?
There are no roof bows, but I don't think this is significant.

Seriously, EPS is a force feedback software controlled system. The roof has NOTHING to do with this. The steering feedback is artificially created by an electric motor. Or perhaps more accurately I should say that the assist is completely controlled by software, so your entire experience other than the behavior when assist is minimal (like when unwinding) is completely defined by software. Dramatic differences exist if you've tried flashing different EPS settings on an F8x from original software to ZCP or CS.

Last edited by chris719; 07-14-2021 at 09:56 AM..
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      07-14-2021, 09:28 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
The structural carbon roof on the CS is not like the carbon fiber roof skin applied over a metal frame in other M cars. It replaces the whole metal structure and is more rigid.

Having said that, I don't know how any driver from a magazine could directly attribute a driving characteristic to that specifically.
I suppose after doing further research that you meant this roof removes the roof bows etc. It may replace that and be more rigid, but if you look at how EPS actually works, I don't see any possible effect from this.

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      07-14-2021, 09:37 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
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Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
The structural carbon roof on the CS is not like the carbon fiber roof skin applied over a metal frame in other M cars. It replaces the whole metal structure and is more rigid.

Having said that, I don't know how any driver from a magazine could directly attribute a driving characteristic to that specifically.
Sorry, the E92 and F8x roofs are bonded structural elements and not a skin applied over a metal frame. When they fail they are safety issues. The production process for this particular roof is different, that's all.
Source?

I believe you are wrong.

There are metal support crossbars underneath the carbon fiber skin on a 92 and F series M3/4 that are not present on the M2cs. The carbon fiber for the CS provide all of the structure. The carbon fiber roof of earlier M cars does not.
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      07-14-2021, 09:42 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
I can compare to my F80 with a moonroof and the CS with the structural carbon roof and they are worlds apart in steering feel. I only drove a F80 with carbon roof a few times on track and was too busy to notice a difference. Differences are not certain to be related but a lower centre of gravity and stiffer chassis will contribute.
They run different EPS software / settings, so of course they are worlds apart. EPS is not necessarily steer-by-wire, but if you flashed/coded 2015 F80 steering on your car it would feel terrible.
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      07-14-2021, 09:44 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
Source?

I believe you are wrong.

There are metal support crossbars underneath the carbon fiber skin on a 92 and F series M3/4 that are not present on the M2cs. The carbon fiber for the CS provide all of the structure. The carbon fiber roof of earlier M cars does not.
Yep, I had already edited that out before you posted because I believe you are correct. Still, I doubt this has any effect on electric power steering feel or how they would know this is the change that makes the difference.

Actually, you can look here to see that the F8x does have a CFRP roof bow according to BMW marketing materials anyway:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=892746

CFRP roof for both M3 and M4

saves 11 pounds (5kg) on M3
saves more than 13.2 pounds (6kg) on M4

CFRP roof bow

There may be other metal elements in there, however.

Last edited by chris719; 07-14-2021 at 09:51 AM..
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      07-14-2021, 10:01 AM   #56
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I think the biggest difference is that roof bows (whether metal or CF) provide rollover protection but because they are not triangulated they do not provide any torsional rigidity to prevent twisting of the passenger compartment. The solid structure of the F87CS carbon fiber roof, which is bonded along the entire roof rail on both sides, does provide torsional rigidity in addition to roll over protection.

As noted, there is no way someone could accurately detect the contribution this makes to overall handling performance relative to other factors (tires, alignment, EPS programming, adaptive dampers) but it is part of the overall package.
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      07-14-2021, 01:35 PM   #57
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Why does cross bracing, strut tower bar, bushing changes, stiffer sidewall tires, roll cages, etc all change steering feel. It's due to the effective spring rate between the chassis and the road (not referencing the suspension springs). Stiffening the roof prevents twist in the body and translates more fidelity and overall stiffness.
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      07-16-2021, 05:01 AM   #58
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So much to love about this car .. Love the design , love the driving feel

Def a keeper !
That is one unbelievable image from an even more unbelievable car
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      07-16-2021, 05:04 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarJunkie View Post
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Originally Posted by Bimmercs View Post
So much to love about this car .. Love the design , love the driving feel

Def a keeper !
Agreed! Happy DCT owner here! When I want to use my left foot, I drive the other one.
Don't you use your left foot with the DCT?

Where's the fun in that?
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      07-18-2021, 07:18 PM   #60
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The more I drive my DCT M2 CS, the better. I will have second thoughts about ever getting rid of it.
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      07-18-2021, 09:51 PM   #61
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The more I drive my DCT M2 CS, the better. I will have second thoughts about ever getting rid of it.
I use my right foot, left hand for gear lever and both hands for steering and paddles. Plenty of engagement

That said, I'll look forward to one last M manual with the G87 CS. Will then having a matching pair (last/best DCT and last/hopefully best manual) before the dawn of electric continuous drivetrain gear shifting.
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      07-19-2021, 11:50 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by jdub486 View Post
As an m2c owner I’m more intrigued now to get behind the wheel of a CS. Car and Driver panned the m2c for numb steering and I’d rank it as my number one dynamic complaint about the car. I guess it’s the additional negative camber, cup 2’s, lighter weight and roof stiffness making a difference.
Unsprung mass, stiffer sidewalls of the Cup 2's probably are the other reasons besides the ones you mentioned.
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      07-20-2021, 11:24 AM   #63
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Unsprung mass, stiffer sidewalls of the Cup 2's probably are the other reasons besides the ones you mentioned.
After 5k miles with the Pilot 4s (bought the car in NJ in the winter - so okay for the time) I made the swap to Cup 2's and... it's a totally different car! The grip from the tires makes the suspension feel softer (sport and sport plus are actually usable now), while the steering feels a touch heavier but far more precise (now a comfort setting makes sense). The nose feels sharper/lighter and turn-in is greatly improved along with confidence. A few canyon blasts (now back in Socal) and it's quite a bit more difficult to kick the back end around (in a good way). I thought the CS was good before. It's absolutely incredible with Cup 2's.
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      07-20-2021, 12:50 PM   #64
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Quote:
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Quote:
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Unsprung mass, stiffer sidewalls of the Cup 2's probably are the other reasons besides the ones you mentioned.
After 5k miles with the Pilot 4s (bought the car in NJ in the winter - so okay for the time) I made the swap to Cup 2's and... it's a totally different car! The grip from the tires makes the suspension feel softer (sport and sport plus are actually usable now), while the steering feels a touch heavier but far more precise (now a comfort setting makes sense). The nose feels sharper/lighter and turn-in is greatly improved along with confidence. A few canyon blasts (now back in Socal) and it's quite a bit more difficult to kick the back end around (in a good way). I thought the CS was good before. It's absolutely incredible with Cup 2's.
Do you mean with PSS?no way that I'm aware of for you to buy the car with the 4S tire.

But to the other quoted point, several owners of competitions that have had better wheels and tires have still said the CS on the PSS tire was still a marked improvement in steering feel etc over the comp.
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      07-20-2021, 05:33 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjamz View Post
Motortrend noted the stiffness in the chassis provided by the carbon roof contributed to the directness of the steering response.
I believe it also affects the tides in Newfoundland.
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      07-20-2021, 06:21 PM   #66
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I believe it also affects the tides in Newfoundland.[/QUOTE]
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Motortrend noted the stiffness in the chassis provided by the carbon roof contributed to the directness of the steering response.
I believe it also affects the tides in Newfoundland.
I've had 6 bimmers now and y'all must be right - it's the cup 2's I don't have on my CS that makes it the better steering car than most others I've driven.
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