BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW M2 Forum > BMW M2 CS Model > Track battle: 718 Cayman GT4 (PDK) - BMW M2 CS (M-DCT) - Lotus Exige 410 Sport (6MT)

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-03-2020, 03:07 PM   #23
adc
Major General
United_States
2725
Rep
6,750
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (12)

I was surprised that the Porsche still seemed to have quite a bit of understeer, and the most amount of oversteer angle. M2 wasn’t the oversteer monster that other reviews implied, and seemed well balanced.

Again based on the video. No idea how they feel from the driver seat.


As for the Lotus, the oldest chassis here, people should stop making excuses for it. Wonderful analog car that it is, will not post the fastest times.
__________________

2018 F80 Santorini
2019 Z4 3.0i
2022 X2 M35i
Appreciate 0
      11-03-2020, 04:09 PM   #24
VisualEcho
Banned
VisualEcho's Avatar
United_States
6626
Rep
4,145
Posts

Drives: '18 M2 6MT
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Missouri

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2018 BMW M2  [10.00]
Good thing they didn't choose the 430 Cup R with the flappy paddles...
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2020, 07:07 AM   #25
JoeyBananaz18
Brigadier General
JoeyBananaz18's Avatar
398
Rep
4,091
Posts

Drives: metrocard
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Whitestone, NY

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kepler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kepler View Post
Not too shabby for a four-seater coupé.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBananaz18 View Post
I haven't really commented on the M2 largely because I'm not really in the market for one (or will be for a while), but holy crap! To be able to trade punches with these two AND still offer more practicality than either of them is astonishing.
You said it better.
We both had the right idea. I was thinking of what clarkson said when he drove the 1M. And he was going up against an Evora and cayman sport in that one too
__________________
7/18/09- I pick up my baby- 2009 E92 335i Xdrive, Space Gray over Coral Red. Premium Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg, M-Sport Pkg, 193Ms, Gloss Black grills, Custom Gloss Black Mirrors, Performance shift and E-brake boot, M3 spoiler, Euro fog switch, gloss black interior tim, Coco-Mats (red/black), H&R coilovers, 19'' Alufelgen SF-71s......
Appreciate 1
Bimmed Out1908.50
      11-04-2020, 08:51 AM   #26
HeelToeShift
Captain
2001
Rep
993
Posts

Drives: Mine
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Here

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhall1957 View Post
Wow, just a second off the GT4. That's impressive in my mind! I've driven enough early GT4's that I thought it would kill the CS.
1 second here is quite a large gap especially when you consider the M2 CS has a rather large power and torque advantage and this track favors power. Extrapolating, after 30 laps the 718 is ahead likely by 30 seconds based on the times presented.
For comparison sake, a Taycan turbo does 1:55.6 on only a performance tire and that’s a 5700 lb car. M5C did 1:54.9 on a cup tire I believe.

Last edited by HeelToeShift; 11-04-2020 at 08:59 AM..
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2020, 09:39 AM   #27
adc
Major General
United_States
2725
Rep
6,750
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (12)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
1 second here is quite a large gap especially when you consider the M2 CS has a rather large power and torque advantage and this track favors power. Extrapolating, after 30 laps the 718 is ahead likely by 30 seconds based on the times presented.
For comparison sake, a Taycan turbo does 1:55.6 on only a performance tire and that’s a 5700 lb car. M5C did 1:54.9 on a cup tire I believe.
You are assuming these cars can do the same time over 30 laps. I can assure you that none of them can (including the trio in the test). In fact, the Lotus and then the GT4 stand a better chance of finishing first in a longer test/race due to their smaller weight compared to the M2.

But if you are talking amateurs doing HPDE or similar, one second over a 2 minute lap means absolutely nothing.
__________________

2018 F80 Santorini
2019 Z4 3.0i
2022 X2 M35i
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2020, 09:56 AM   #28
VisualEcho
Banned
VisualEcho's Avatar
United_States
6626
Rep
4,145
Posts

Drives: '18 M2 6MT
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Missouri

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2018 BMW M2  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
You are assuming these cars can do the same time over 30 laps. I can assure you that none of them can (including the trio in the test). In fact, the Lotus and then the GT4 stand a better chance of finishing first in a longer test/race due to their smaller weight compared to the M2.

But if you are talking amateurs doing HPDE or similar, one second over a 2 minute lap means absolutely nothing.
Agreed.

And none of these numbers speak to the experience either. Most would have much more fun in the Lotus at 50 mph vs the BMW at 100. If all they're after is numbers, all three of these cars suck for that.
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2020, 10:24 AM   #29
sdhotwn
Mmmm... Bavarian
sdhotwn's Avatar
2129
Rep
1,689
Posts

Drives: M2 CS, X5 45e, i3, Cayman S
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Wisconsin, USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
But if you are talking amateurs doing HPDE or similar, one second over a 2 minute lap means absolutely nothing.
This is one thing that gets lost in a lot of these comparisons as well - ease of extraction of performance. I'm not aware of a good measure or way to really categorize this. It'd be interesting to know what the "joe schmoe" lap times for each car is, in other words how easily the average guy off the street gets a maximum time in each car. There are certain handling characteristics and habits in a car that make it easier for an amateur driver to put down a better lap time than in another. So a technically faster car may be consistently slower in lap times for most drivers just because of how they handle. See this all the time at HDPE's. I easily lap many people in my E36 that I shouldn't be within 10 seconds of lap time wise. Combo of driver and comfort and accessibility of the car's performance.
__________________
M2 CS
2023 CB X5 45e
2018 i3 94
2014 Cayman S
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2020, 10:25 AM   #30
sdhotwn
Mmmm... Bavarian
sdhotwn's Avatar
2129
Rep
1,689
Posts

Drives: M2 CS, X5 45e, i3, Cayman S
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Wisconsin, USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Agreed.

And none of these numbers speak to the experience either. Most would have much more fun in the Lotus at 50 mph vs the BMW at 100. If all they're after is numbers, all three of these cars suck for that.
Yeah, I have to admit, I still would love to put an Evora in the garage. Just something exotic and forbidden about it to me that I just want the dang thing even though it is not the right choice for my needs right now. I sure would love looking at it and taking it places and putting in some laps with it though!
__________________
M2 CS
2023 CB X5 45e
2018 i3 94
2014 Cayman S
Appreciate 1
VisualEcho6625.50
      11-05-2020, 02:14 PM   #31
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Received my Sport Auto in the mail today.

A quick recap of the test is that the GT4 is the more clinical track car for fast lap times but it's brakes let it down.

The M2 CS is the fun and rewarding car (fun grenade is the word they used directly translated) with an agile and playful rear axle.

The Lotus is the old school, lightweight car with a fantastic steering feel (but lack of locking diff hurts lap times).

The M2 and Lotus share 1st place with the GT4 3rd.
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 2
CarJunkie2615.50
Hedoniste3770.50
      11-05-2020, 02:21 PM   #32
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhall1957 View Post
Wow, just a second off the GT4. That's impressive in my mind! I've driven enough early GT4's that I thought it would kill the CS.
1 second here is quite a large gap especially when you consider the M2 CS has a rather large power and torque advantage and this track favors power. Extrapolating, after 30 laps the 718 is ahead likely by 30 seconds based on the times presented.
For comparison sake, a Taycan turbo does 1:55.6 on only a performance tire and that's a 5700 lb car. M5C did 1:54.9 on a cup tire I believe.
The "huge" power advantage of the M2 isn't that huge...

BMW M2:
1588kg/450hp = 3,528 kg/hp

GT4
1481kg/420hp = 3,526 kg/hp

In reality the GT4 actually has 0,002kg less weight pr hp than the M2...
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2020, 02:35 PM   #33
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
But if you are talking amateurs doing HPDE or similar, one second over a 2 minute lap means absolutely nothing.
This is one thing that gets lost in a lot of these comparisons as well - ease of extraction of performance. I'm not aware of a good measure or way to really categorize this. It'd be interesting to know what the "joe schmoe" lap times for each car is, in other words how easily the average guy off the street gets a maximum time in each car. There are certain handling characteristics and habits in a car that make it easier for an amateur driver to put down a better lap time than in another. So a technically faster car may be consistently slower in lap times for most drivers just because of how they handle. See this all the time at HDPE's. I easily lap many people in my E36 that I shouldn't be within 10 seconds of lap time wise. Combo of driver and comfort and accessibility of the car's performance.
These topics are sort of covered in the article about the test (not the video).

M2 is the most playful and fun but it's tires need to be warm and tire pressures correct. The GT4 is the easiest car to get consistent quick lap times out of and has more mechanical grip, while the M2 wants to dance and do the "Rambazamba" (description used in the article).

So M2 definitely more fun and playful but I guess the GT4 will feel more secure and planted for most drivers.
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2020, 02:43 PM   #34
CarJunkie
Colonel
CarJunkie's Avatar
United_States
2616
Rep
2,819
Posts

Drives: e82 1M, f87 M2cs
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Tri-Cities, Washington

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2020 M2cs  [0.00]
2011 BMW 1M  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
But if you are talking amateurs doing HPDE or similar, one second over a 2 minute lap means absolutely nothing.
This is one thing that gets lost in a lot of these comparisons as well - ease of extraction of performance. I'm not aware of a good measure or way to really categorize this. It'd be interesting to know what the "joe schmoe" lap times for each car is, in other words how easily the average guy off the street gets a maximum time in each car. There are certain handling characteristics and habits in a car that make it easier for an amateur driver to put down a better lap time than in another. So a technically faster car may be consistently slower in lap times for most drivers just because of how they handle. See this all the time at HDPE's. I easily lap many people in my E36 that I shouldn't be within 10 seconds of lap time wise. Combo of driver and comfort and accessibility of the car's performance.
These topics are sort of covered in the article about the test (not the video).

M2 is the most playful and fun but it's tires need to be warm and tire pressures correct. The GT4 is the easiest car to get consistent quick lap times out of and has more mechanical grip, while the M2 wants to dance and do the "Rambazamba" (description used in the article).

So M2 definitely more fun and playful but I guess the GT4 will feel more secure and planted for most drivers.
I like rambazamba.
__________________
1M track toy mods: BMS chargepipe, BMS OCC, ADE FMIC, ADE motor mounts, MadDad/Lightweight Ti exhaust, ADE custom oil thermostat/cooler, custom MHD tune, F10 550i clutch, Ohlins R+T, Vorschlag camber plates, M3 'vert FSB with Turner endlinks, Stoptech Trophy BBK.
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2020, 03:21 PM   #35
HeelToeShift
Captain
2001
Rep
993
Posts

Drives: Mine
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Here

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The "huge" power advantage of the M2 isn't that huge...

BMW M2:
1588kg/450hp = 3,528 kg/hp

GT4
1481kg/420hp = 3,526 kg/hp

In reality the GT4 actually has 0,002kg less weight pr hp than the M2...
Well, to be honest, I have owned the S55 in my M4 and these cars are underrated by a good bit. Sport Auto did an actual dyno on the M2CS and says it’s makes 481 hp giving it a large advantage there and better weight to hp ratio. Plus it’s got tons of torque. The GT4 does a lot more with less which is something I favor. I also do think it would be a more consistent and easier to extract performance out of as mentioned above which in the track day I was able to squeeze in was pretty obvious to me even though most of the cars I’ve tracked in many years have been PDK only and had to have that extra level of focus being my GT4 is a 6 speed.

Last edited by HeelToeShift; 11-05-2020 at 03:32 PM..
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2020, 03:35 PM   #36
HeelToeShift
Captain
2001
Rep
993
Posts

Drives: Mine
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Here

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Received my Sport Auto in the mail today.

A quick recap of the test is that the GT4 is the more clinical track car for fast lap times but it's brakes let it down.

The M2 CS is the fun and rewarding car (fun grenade is the word they used directly translated) with an agile and playful rear axle.

The Lotus is the old school, lightweight car with a fantastic steering feel (but lack of locking diff hurts lap times).

The M2 and Lotus share 1st place with the GT4 3rd.
Can you scan a higher res? Would love to see how they scored it. Weird bit on the GT4 brakes since the steels are the units from the 991 GT3 and the PCCB, well they’re Porsche ceramics so likely nothing better. I have the steels and was supremely impressed so far on track.
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2020, 03:45 PM   #37
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Received my Sport Auto in the mail today.

A quick recap of the test is that the GT4 is the more clinical track car for fast lap times but it's brakes let it down.

The M2 CS is the fun and rewarding car (fun grenade is the word they used directly translated) with an agile and playful rear axle.

The Lotus is the old school, lightweight car with a fantastic steering feel (but lack of locking diff hurts lap times).

The M2 and Lotus share 1st place with the GT4 3rd.
Can you scan a higher res? Would love to see how they scored it. Weird bit on the GT4 brakes since the steels are the units from the 991 GT3 and the PCCB, well they’re Porsche ceramics so likely nothing better. I have the steels and was supremely impressed so far on track.
Hope these photos are better
Attached Images
   
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2020, 03:52 PM   #38
HeelToeShift
Captain
2001
Rep
993
Posts

Drives: Mine
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Here

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Hope these photos are better
Thanks. Scoring seems odd. Given they were comparing these cars, the track time and slalom heavily favored the GT4 so it should be full score on both with the others being less since they couldn’t match it. The brakes seem off but who knows there. Just odd.
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2020, 06:05 PM   #39
eddieb4
Private First Class
93
Rep
112
Posts

Drives: 12 Dinan 550xi / 01 911tt
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (0)

Driver was booking ... strange that he was not wearing a helmet.
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2020, 11:27 PM   #40
1claire
Banned
1claire's Avatar
United_States
45
Rep
79
Posts

Drives: BMW M5 Alpine White
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

Interesting. I just hope that they use another color for the BMW car. Nonetheless, I am not surprised by the result.
Appreciate 0
      11-06-2020, 04:43 AM   #41
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Hope these photos are better
Thanks. Scoring seems odd. Given they were comparing these cars, the track time and slalom heavily favored the GT4 so it should be full score on both with the others being less since they couldn’t match it. The brakes seem off but who knows there. Just odd.
Scoring is universal and not limited to this test. To get a 25/25 you need a «supercar». A 25/25 lap time is much quicker than a 18/25 lap time for instance.

The total score for each car is also used to rank tested cars and are often reterenced in tests to see how the car ranks in the total ranking.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
718 gt4, f82, gt4 pdk, hockenheim, m2cs, porsche, versus

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:40 AM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST