[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

I'm in Missouri as well, and reading through this thread is like reading through Amazon reviews.

Why does it seem to be so hard just to get a quality intercooler for Stage 2 without any issues?

I'm an ER fan, but the Wagner is still on my radar.

I have until the Black Friday sales to figure it out.

You’re overthinking it - the BMS 5”/ VRSF 5” or DO88 is fine for a daily driver, and they don’t break the bank. The BMS 5” does have some fitment issues with the fan shroud, but it’s minor.

And they will be better performers than the Wagner products.

[vrooooom]

Originally Posted by Sundinisagod

I am must be blind but not seeing much/any talk about CTS Race Core IC ? Their stuff usually has a good rep at their price points and this one is in the 600usd range. Also like the fact they make a charge pipe so fitment shouldn’t be an issue there…that’s what’s held me back from ordering the CSF not clear which (if any) charge pipes offer an easy fitment.

No issue w/ FTP and I installed it myself. I'm not a pro FYI. Newbie. First IC + CP I've ever installed. Just them washers being too small to securely hold the IC. I'm sure you're talking about the "angled" output of the IC where the CP connects to. The FTP CP come in 2 parts w/ the silicone hose as connector. Allows you to basically rotate the lower part to any angle u like, independent of the top part. Ignore those postings.

[vrooooom]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

I'm an ER fan, but the Wagner is still on my radar.

I have until the Black Friday sales to figure it out.

I actually wanted to get that IC (first choice) but messing around with the brackets ...just didn't want that. PnP was what I was after.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

You’re overthinking it - the BMS 5”/ VRSF 5” or DO88 is fine for a daily driver, and they don’t break the bank. The BMS 5” does have some fitment issues with the fan shroud, but it’s minor.

And they will be better performers than the Wagner products.

I appreciate your educated response, and wonder if I might ask you 3 additional questions.

1. I prefer to buy quality products so I don't have to buy them again. Of the IC's you mentioned, which would be your choice for quality?

2. I like parts to fit correctly if at all possible. Which charge pipe would you recommend with your above IC recommendation?

3. I'm a safety guy, like to set-it-and-forget-it, and only use 93 octane. I don't want to mess with logs, and will never race my car. Would you say that an OTS BM3 Stage 2 93 octane map would be safe under all normal circumstances, or should I use 93 octane but use the 91 map?

I appreciate your responses.

Originally Posted by vrooooom

I actually wanted to get that IC (first choice) but messing around with the brackets ...just didn't want that. PnP was what I was after.

I didn't realize there was any fiddling that needed to be done with the ER. Thanks for the tip!

[Wolfman’s Brother]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

I like to set-it-and-forget-it, and only use 93 octane. I don't want to mess with logs, Would you say that an OTS BM3 Stage 2 93 octane map would be safe under all normal circumstances, or should I use 93 octane but use the 91 map?

I appreciate your responses.

If you’re not going to occasionally log (aka monitoring it like you care), then no I would not run OTS BM3 S293 from what I’ve seen in my experience.

Logging is not so cumbersome that an enthusiast like yourself can’t handle it. You’re particular about everything else with your M2, why not lay eyes on how healthy it’s running?

If you’re going to put your head in the sand, I would push to S2 91 AT MOST from what I’ve seen running higher than 93 octane in a hot/humid environment like yours.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by Wolfman’s Brother

If you’re not going to occasionally log (aka monitoring it like you care), then no I would not run OTS BM3 S293 from what I’ve seen in my experience.

Logging is not so cumbersome that an enthusiast like yourself can’t handle it. You’re particular about everything else with your M2, why not lay eyes on how healthy it’s running?

If you’re going to put your head in the sand, I would push to S2 91 AT MOST from what I’ve seen running higher than 93 octane in a hot/humid environment like yours.

I'm too OCD to enjoy the process of logging. I'd end up being a fixture in those threads, and it'd drive me nuts. I'd rather leave the stock power than do that.

S2 91 octane using 93 exclusively has always been my plan, but lately I've been reconsidering because I can't find a single instance where running the common mods (DP/IC/CP/BM3S2) has caused any damage. So if it's just going to pull a bit of timing when it's extremely hot, what's the big deal? Unless you've heard of damaged street cars?

[Wolfman’s Brother]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

I'm too OCD to enjoy the process of logging. I'd end up being a fixture in those threads, and it'd drive me nuts. I'd rather leave the stock power than do that.

S2 91 octane using 93 exclusively has always been my plan, but lately I've been reconsidering because I can't find a single instance where running the common mods (DP/IC/CP/BM3S2) has caused any damage. So if it's just going to pull a bit of timing when it's extremely hot, what's the big deal? Unless you've heard of damaged street cars?

I totally get your point, but this isn’t simply a pass/fail exercise for me. If it is for you, I wish you nothing but luck.

Not causing “damage” isn’t my definition of success though as I plan to put 80k miles plus on this car. Will it survive some pre-det and go 50k-100k miles as you’re describing? Maybe? Probably?

[Sundinisagod]

Originally Posted by vrooooom

No issue w/ FTP and I installed it myself. I'm not a pro FYI. Newbie. First IC + CP I've ever installed. Just them washers being too small to securely hold the IC. I'm sure you're talking about the "angled" output of the IC where the CP connects to. The FTP CP come in 2 parts w/ the silicone hose as connector. Allows you to basically rotate the lower part to any angle u like, independent of the top part. Ignore those postings.

Yes the angle has been said to be off a bit. Another poster here said charge pipe is super close to the alternator, couple you tubers complained about the install as well.

[Sundinisagod]

Originally Posted by gphung

Nope, a reputable BMW specialist shop did the install for me and didn't mention a thing. Sorry I don't have more info.

I think Nezil on here also has the same setup and he has documented a lot about his build/experiences. Might be able to find some info there as well.

Might be a case where experienced technicians are used to iffy fitting aftermarket parts, plus they have a lift vs do it yourselfers lying on their garage floor.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by Wolfman’s Brother

I totally get your point, but this isn’t simply a pass/fail exercise for me. If it is for you, I wish you nothing but luck.

Not causing “damage” isn’t my definition of success though as I plan to put 80k miles plus on this car. Will it survive some pre-det and go 50k-100k miles as you’re describing? Maybe? Probably?

I hear you, and I'm on the same page for sure, I just figured if BMW could do all the other little tricky things they do (so many versions of traction control), they probably make the PD knock-sensor to the same standard. I mean, that's all timing retard is right? It's TC for your timing. Timing retard = no damage, right?

[vrooooom]

Originally Posted by Sundinisagod

Yes the angle has been said to be off a bit. Another poster here said charge pipe is super close to the alternator, couple you tubers complained about the install as well.

Everything is close to everything in this car if you ask me. I installed, like many others here, using just the front on jack-stands. It’s all relative. Like I said I’ve never worked under a car before except fluid changes. I ended pulling the IC twice too coz first one was when my CP blew up and my IC hasn’t arrived. Second time when it finally arrived.

I've never come across a YT vid mentioned this "off-angle" issue. Of course that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've only read about it and personally never really encountered it myself. YMMV.

[Dj_Quik]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

I hear you, and I'm on the same page for sure, I just figured if BMW could do all the other little tricky things they do (so many versions of traction control), they probably make the PD knock-sensor to the same standard. I mean, that's all timing retard is right? It's TC for your timing. Timing retard = no damage, right?

Timing retardation is reactive. Meaning the ecu is pulling timing because its already detecting knock. Now, there different levels of knock. You could get lucky and only get small knock events but it will only take one superknock to mess up your pistons and cylinders. Minor timing corrections are inevitable but you need to be able to log to make sure theyre not out of control. With stage 2 93 youre pushing 16 psi regardless vs the stock tune that can vary boost and timing to as low 10 psi depending on fuel and conditions. Bm3 basically changes the factory ecu strategies so you HAVE to give the tune the fuel it demands or youre simply asking for trouble especially if you dont log.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by Dj_Quik

Timing retardation is reactive. Meaning the ecu is pulling timing because its already detecting knock. Now, there different levels of knock. You could get lucky and only get small knock events but it will only take one superknock to mess up your pistons and cylinders. Minor timing corrections are inevitable but you need to be able to log to make sure theyre not out of control. With stage 2 93 youre pushing 16 psi regardless vs the stock tune that can vary boost and timing to as low 10 psi depending on fuel and conditions. Bm3 basically changes the factory ecu strategies so you HAVE to give the tune the fuel it demands or youre simply asking for trouble especially if you dont log.

Got it. It'll be a custom tune for me, and no logs.

[BallHog5873]

what type of gains can i expect from a VRSF charge pipe and VRSF 5" intercooler upgrade on a stock engine? I probably wont be tuning for another few months.
Im mainly looking for better throttle response and less turbo lag.

[Wolfman’s Brother]

Peak power maybe 5-10whp? More importantly it’ll help prevent it from losing power up to during multiple pulls.

[Sundinisagod]

Originally Posted by BallHog5873

what type of gains can i expect from a VRSF charge pipe and VRSF 5" intercooler upgrade on a stock engine? I probably wont be tuning for another few months.
Im mainly looking for better throttle response and less turbo lag.

I would imagine you’ll see more turbo lag and worse throttle response.

The bigger the intercooler the more lag.

The tune, down pipe, inlet pipe and diverter valve should offset the lag from a larger than stock cooler.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by BallHog5873

what type of gains can i expect from a VRSF charge pipe and VRSF 5" intercooler upgrade on a stock engine? I probably wont be tuning for another few months.
Im mainly looking for better throttle response and less turbo lag.

The charge pipe does not add any power.

Upgrading the intercooler will make the car more consistent even on the stock tune. Depending on the ambient temp and how hard you push the vehicle, an intercooler can easily make a 20-30 whp difference.

Make sure to plan long term, if you will be going stage 2 eventually you are better off getting a larger intercooler (6 or 7")

Also get the charge pipe and intercooler at the same time as some vendors (like us) offer combo deals when bought together

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Dj_Quik

Timing retardation is reactive. Meaning the ecu is pulling timing because its already detecting knock. Now, there different levels of knock. You could get lucky and only get small knock events but it will only take one superknock to mess up your pistons and cylinders. Minor timing corrections are inevitable but you need to be able to log to make sure theyre not out of control. With stage 2 93 youre pushing 16 psi regardless vs the stock tune that can vary boost and timing to as low 10 psi depending on fuel and conditions. Bm3 basically changes the factory ecu strategies so you HAVE to give the tune the fuel it demands or youre simply asking for trouble especially if you dont log.

It pulls timing even on the stock tune with stock hardware. Are we to assume the car is destroying itself from the factory?

[Wolfman’s Brother]

Originally Posted by akkando

Are we to assume the car is destroying itself from the factory?

I’ll say it again: There is a lot of room between perfect and ‘destroying itself’. As a result, you can expect a lot of opinions on what’s acceptable and what’s not.

[BallHog5873]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

The charge pipe does not add any power.

Upgrading the intercooler will make the car more consistent even on the stock tune. Depending on the ambient temp and how hard you push the vehicle, an intercooler can easily make a 20-30 whp difference.

Make sure to plan long term, if you will be going stage 2 eventually you are better off getting a larger intercooler (6 or 7")

Also get the charge pipe and intercooler at the same time as some vendors (like us) offer combo deals when bought together

thank you. So I won't lose power or throttle response with the VRSF 5" intercooler?
I was planning on buying them together. And I won't go past stage 1 in this car.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by BallHog5873

thank you. So I won't lose power or throttle response with the VRSF 5" intercooler?
I was planning on buying them together. And I won't go past stage 1 in this car.

No. Mike doesn’t sell VRSF, so he may have other options that are comparable, like the BMS 5”

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

I appreciate your educated response, and wonder if I might ask you 3 additional questions.

1. I prefer to buy quality products so I don't have to buy them again. Of the IC's you mentioned, which would be your choice for quality?

2. I like parts to fit correctly if at all possible. Which charge pipe would you recommend with your above IC recommendation?

3. I'm a safety guy, like to set-it-and-forget-it, and only use 93 octane. I don't want to mess with logs, and will never race my car. Would you say that an OTS BM3 Stage 2 93 octane map would be safe under all normal circumstances, or should I use 93 octane but use the 91 map?

I appreciate your responses.





I didn't realize there was any fiddling that needed to be done with the ER. Thanks for the tip!

I started writing up a detailed response and got sidetracked- but I’ll follow up.

mishutka - clear your PMs, I can’t message you back