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      01-02-2020, 05:34 PM   #1101
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Originally Posted by Tag View Post
My heart says this, but my head says wait. I still rock a U2 iPod for use at the gym from 2004 which requires wired headphones. Yeah, I'm that guy and IDGAF. I've converted its hard drive to all flash storage with 512GB to last another decade or so and all my music is lossless, because why the fuck not.

I'm holding out for the G87 as my next car. I'll likely have my dreams shattered when BMW ends up putting the B58 in it instead of the S58. At that point I'll and say you were right, but until then I'm fine with the old M2 and my iPod.
not a bad way to get around in the interim, regardless.

I actually believe that the G87 will have the B58...and so will the Comp...I don't think you see the S58 until there's a CS in the G87.

The F87 S55 equipped M2C is pretty much a one-time deal, at least that's how I see it playing out. It will be fun to see what ends up happening.
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      01-02-2020, 05:56 PM   #1102
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Surprised this thread is still going. I would rather buy an M2C or a nice CPO M4 and keep the change. You could even find a CPO C2/4S for that money. So many options.
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      01-02-2020, 07:21 PM   #1103
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Originally Posted by c1pher View Post
Surprised this thread is still going. I would rather buy an M2C or a nice CPO M4 and keep the change. You could even find a CPO C2/4S for that money. So many options.
BMW hasn't left is much to talk about so we are still trying to pass the time. 😁
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      01-02-2020, 11:05 PM   #1104
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
not a bad way to get around in the interim, regardless.

I actually believe that the G87 will have the B58...and so will the Comp...I don't think you see the S58 until there's a CS in the G87.

The F87 S55 equipped M2C is pretty much a one-time deal, at least that's how I see it playing out. It will be fun to see what ends up happening.
Not sure about that, everyone was pretty upset that the OG M2 didn't have an S engine. They were angry over the non-M side view mirrors, the interior being the same as a regular 2er, etc. Now that the M2C has addressed most complaints (* cough, Adaptive M suspension, cough *) it's baked into the cake IMO that the next M2 will get the S58. Otherwise BMW risks being heavily criticized by customers, reviewers, influencers, etc.
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      01-02-2020, 11:41 PM   #1105
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Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
I have a sneaking suspicion that the US is going to start later. There was a comment somewhere verbal or written that referenced 3rd quarter deliveries for the US. Seems odd if production is starting in March. I'm thinking US won't start getting deliveries until sometime June to September. I assume BMW has to run these through the M2 comp production line. This might mean building them in region specific batches. I believe someone commented that German deliveries in April/May. Push through all RHD, and the LHD?
I reckon they are going around the globe working out allocations for each country in conjunction with the dealer networks. I don't believe there will be any "showroom" cars.

The US being the biggest market will likely be the last.

My latest update down here is this:

Multiply by .7 to get US equivalent. We pay massive "luxury tax".

"The M2 pricing has been confirmed at $139,900 before on road costs.
So it will be $160,000 plus options.

Volume is yet to be confirmed but it will be under 70, with currently over 90 orders on the car Aus wide.
March 2020 is the first production slot, with the last one being December.

Options pricing below;

2MK M double – clutch transmission with Drivelogic ¨ $7,500
2NK M Carbon Ceramic brake ¨ $ 15,000
302 Alarm system with remote control ¨ $1,000
420 Sun protection glazing ¨ $660"

So I'd hazard a guess that they are converting orders into actual committed sales to work out production and allocations.

After initially spitting the dummy over the $7500 DCT tax I'm still thinking I'm probably going to get one. I won't cry if I don't but this is going to be the boss level version of my favourite car and I think I'd later feel some regret if I passed on it.
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      01-03-2020, 09:39 AM   #1106
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Originally Posted by Tag View Post
Not sure about that, everyone was pretty upset that the OG M2 didn't have an S engine. They were angry over the non-M side view mirrors, the interior being the same as a regular 2er, etc. Now that the M2C has addressed most complaints (* cough, Adaptive M suspension, cough *) it's baked into the cake IMO that the next M2 will get the S58. Otherwise BMW risks being heavily criticized by customers, reviewers, influencers, etc.
Except....the M2 is designed, as stated by BMW themselves, to be the entry level M product and a method by which to expose more folks to the M brand within BMW. In the event that the M2 abandons the "entry-level" price point position, and is not significantly cheaper than the M3/4 going forward, then you might be right.

I just think the M2C was a bit of a perfect storm, given all the things that had to happen in order for the S55 to make its way into the F87 before the CS. Hell, as stout as the B58 appears to be, we might not see any version of the M2 get the S58...especially since the next generation will be manufactured in Mexico.

Another wrinkle is whether or not they will make a base M2 and Comp at the same time, and release them at the same time. If they go that direction, I would bet that they both have an 0T0 version of the B58...like the N55 in the M2 and the N54 in the 1M.
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      01-03-2020, 10:36 AM   #1107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Except....the M2 is designed, as stated by BMW themselves, to be the entry level M product and a method by which to expose more folks to the M brand within BMW. In the event that the M2 abandons the "entry-level" price point position, and is not significantly cheaper than the M3/4 going forward, then you might be right.

I just think the M2C was a bit of a perfect storm, given all the things that had to happen in order for the S55 to make its way into the F87 before the CS. Hell, as stout as the B58 appears to be, we might not see any version of the M2 get the S58...especially since the next generation will be manufactured in Mexico.

Another wrinkle is whether or not they will make a base M2 and Comp at the same time, and release them at the same time. If they go that direction, I would bet that they both have an 0T0 version of the B58...like the N55 in the M2 and the N54 in the 1M.
I'm also in the camp that thinks the next M2 gets the B58. I don't believe they ever intended to drop an "S" engine in anything other than the CS, and that was due to power limitations of N55. B58 won't have power issues for any level M2
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      01-03-2020, 11:48 AM   #1108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Except....the M2 is designed, as stated by BMW themselves, to be the entry level M product and a method by which to expose more folks to the M brand within BMW. In the event that the M2 abandons the "entry-level" price point position, and is not significantly cheaper than the M3/4 going forward, then you might be right.

I just think the M2C was a bit of a perfect storm, given all the things that had to happen in order for the S55 to make its way into the F87 before the CS. Hell, as stout as the B58 appears to be, we might not see any version of the M2 get the S58...especially since the next generation will be manufactured in Mexico.

Another wrinkle is whether or not they will make a base M2 and Comp at the same time, and release them at the same time. If they go that direction, I would bet that they both have an 0T0 version of the B58...like the N55 in the M2 and the N54 in the 1M.
You may recall the interview by forum member MR. with BMW's head of M, Frank van Meel. They had to give the M2C the S55, because the N55 couldn't reliably be tuned for more power. They planned to use the S55 even before any final decision was made to produce the M2CS. They originally had planned to sell both the N55 M2 and M2C side by side until WLTP made that impossible.

Quote:
MR: Why opt for the S55 engine and introduce such a massive change to the key character of the M2?

FvM: During the development of the M2 Competition, we faced a major challenge with regards to the N55 engine due to a number of reasons. First of all, we felt we pushed the engine performance to its limits. 370 horsepower is a great number, but we wanted more. Secondly, we needed changes to meet the new European emissions standards, and so a business decision was made to move to the S55 engine and develop a brand new exhaust system for the M2 Competition which includes the same particulate filter as on the M4.

​MR: Would you have kept the base M2 available for sale, if the WLTP would not have played any role in the decision making process?

FvM: Yes, the production of the M2 LCI would not come to an end this summer if the WLTP did not play a role. We would have continued the M2 next to the M2 Competition and both cars would have been built alongside each other at the factory in Leipzig, Germany.

MR: In what way did you listen to the existing customer base and included their remarks in this new car?

FvM: We have most definitely taken notice of what the current customer base and community has shared with us. We looked at where we could improve the package for the M2 Competition. The main change following comments was adding the M mirrors. The majority of the customers wondered why they were missing on the base M2 Coupé and therefore we added them. They are the same mirrors used on the M3 and M4 models. Other changes such as the new M Sports seats, M sports brake kit and the tweaked suspension will also be greatly appreciated by the customer base. Especially those would like to have that additional performance, a key asset of the Competition range.

MR: How did you separate the M2 Competition from the base M4 and made sure the price tag did not increase too much?

FvM:
Interesting question. Pricing will be revealed mid-May so I cannot comment on the exact price levels of the M2 Competition yet, but I can ensure you that we looked thoroughly into positioning the vehicle between the outgoing M2 LCI and the base M4. This is the main reason why we didn’t add a carbon fiber roof, adaptive suspension or ceramic brakes to the M2 Competition. We really wanted to make sure that the M2 differentiates itself from its bigger brother both on specification level and price tag. The base price will not increase drastically!
Source: Frank van Meel, the BMW M Division boss who gives us more…
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      01-03-2020, 11:57 AM   #1109
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Tag but that's my point...the B58 doesn't seem to share the same limitations when it comes to multiple iterations of power. It appears that it's much more "stout" at a basic level than the N55.

Why put the S58 into the platform if the B58 is sufficient, and meets the overall goal associated with the "right" performance level for the entry-level M car?

I hope they put the S58 into the new M2...I just don't think they will.
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      01-03-2020, 11:59 AM   #1110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Tag but that's my point...the B58 doesn't seem to share the same limitations when it comes to multiple iterations of power. It appears that it's much more "stout" at a basic level than the N55.

Why put the S58 into the platform if the B58 is sufficient, and meets the overall goal associated with the "right" performance level for the entry-level M car?

I hope they put the S58 into the new M2...I just don't think they will.
I don't disagree with you, but at the same time there is no B58 that's outputting over 400hp at the moment. You bring up good points and truth be told this could go either way. I just hope you're dead wrong for my sake, lol.
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      01-03-2020, 12:12 PM   #1111
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The 991 was 8 years ago. The 992 is current. I agree that Porsche has done a better job, the point is that even the best of the best have weight gain.
991.2 finished production in 2019. The 992 GT3 is slated to weigh the same as the 991.2, if not just a smidge less.

The weight gain is due to emissions and turbos, as well as the 8 spd PDK. If it were not for the need for turbos/meet Euro emissions, the non GT cars would still weigh less than their predecessors.
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      01-03-2020, 12:24 PM   #1112
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On the flip side of the B58 vs S58 is that the purpose of the modifications are to allow the motor to be beat upon for extended periods of time. The goal was not provide the end user with means to increase output, though that is a natural byproduct. So if we look at it purely from the perspective of matching a motor with it's intended use, the the S58 is good match for the M2 platform. If BMW just wants to separate the M2/M4, then the B58/S58 makes a lot of sense. I'm sure the added cost of the S58 vs B58 would be seen as a worthwhile upcharge in the community.
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      01-03-2020, 02:38 PM   #1113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
not a bad way to get around in the interim, regardless.

I actually believe that the G87 will have the B58...and so will the Comp...I don't think you see the S58 until there's a CS in the G87.

The F87 S55 equipped M2C is pretty much a one-time deal, at least that's how I see it playing out. It will be fun to see what ends up happening.
My guess is that's BMW's plan but it might not work. People are not expecting to have to fight over a limited run CS for 88k or whatever it will be and dealer markups for the s58 engine. The M2C makes a b58 G87 M2C seem like a rip off. In fact, a f87 M2C is probably a better buy than the b58 G87. I guess it's fine if dealers heavily discount the G87 M2s with B58 engines just to move them.
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      01-03-2020, 02:44 PM   #1114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag View Post
You may recall the interview by forum member MR. with BMW's head of M, Frank van Meel. They had to give the M2C the S55, because the N55 couldn't reliably be tuned for more power. They planned to use the S55 even before any final decision was made to produce the M2CS. They originally had planned to sell both the N55 M2 and M2C side by side until WLTP made that impossible.



Source: Frank van Meel, the BMW M Division boss who gives us more…
I don't believe that, that's spin after the fact so they don't look stupid. The M2C comes with parts marked M2CS.
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      01-03-2020, 03:04 PM   #1115
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I don't believe that, that's spin after the fact so they don't look stupid. The M2C comes with parts marked M2CS.
How else would they come out with a Competition model if they N55 was tapped out for power? It's not just BMW saying that, even turners such as Dinan and others said there was little to no overhead to get more power out of the N55 without adding bigger turbos, intercoolers, etc. Sure some tunes can bump the power, but they don't have to warranty the car like BMW does.

Care to expand on what parts on the M2C show CS? That's something I haven't seen or heard of.
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      01-03-2020, 03:29 PM   #1116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag View Post
How else would they come out with a Competition model if they N55 was tapped out for power? It's not just BMW saying that, even turners such as Dinan and others said there was little to no overhead to get more power out of the N55 without adding bigger turbos, intercoolers, etc. Sure some tunes can bump the power, but they don't have to warranty the car like BMW does.

Care to expand on what parts on the M2C show CS? That's something I haven't seen or heard of.


https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1606863

Maybe they were not going to do a Competition model at all. Internally it seemed they had the base f87, and the CS. The CS became the Competition when they had to drop the base model because n55 wouldn't meet emissions. At that point they had to either

#1 only sell s55 CS model in limited run and that's the end of the f87

#2 sell the s55 CS model in a non limited run

#3 spend the money to update the base model with the very very old n55 engine. They were never going to do this

#4 spend the money to develop a b58 engine base model M2 in a short period of time.

#5 Do what they did which was take the M2CS with the S55 which they already had developed and just call it a Competition model, develop a marketing strategy for it that leaves room for an actual CS model (just throw the aftermarket parts on with a tune for CS), remove the planned CS body pieces to lower the price, then sell those planned CS pieces as after market parts.



They didn't need to tune up the n55 engine for a competition model because there never was going to be a competition model in the first place. If there was they could have just thrown the M Performance parts bin stuff at it and the M3 seats. No need for a tune.
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      01-03-2020, 06:23 PM   #1117
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Any chance of posting that with legible numbers when zoomed. Trying to get a feel for us prices. Thanks

Looks like 8500 for CCB and no charge for gold wheels. A smokers package, steering wheel, and dct are options. A storage compartment package? Sorry, trying to decipher what I believe I see.

Hoping alcantara wheel is an option so I don't have to have it. Unless it's the one that lights up. I'm a sucker for lights, so I'd have to have it.

Last edited by medphysdave; 01-03-2020 at 06:54 PM..
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      01-03-2020, 06:55 PM   #1118
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Originally Posted by Davil View Post
I reckon they are going around the globe working out allocations for each country in conjunction with the dealer networks. I don't believe there will be any "showroom" cars.

The US being the biggest market will likely be the last.

My latest update down here is this:

Multiply by .7 to get US equivalent. We pay massive "luxury tax".

"The M2 pricing has been confirmed at $139,900 before on road costs.
So it will be $160,000 plus options.

Volume is yet to be confirmed but it will be under 70, with currently over 90 orders on the car Aus wide.
March 2020 is the first production slot, with the last one being December.

Options pricing below;

2MK M double – clutch transmission with Drivelogic ¨ $7,500
2NK M Carbon Ceramic brake ¨ $ 15,000
302 Alarm system with remote control ¨ $1,000
420 Sun protection glazing ¨ $660"

So I'd hazard a guess that they are converting orders into actual committed sales to work out production and allocations.

After initially spitting the dummy over the $7500 DCT tax I'm still thinking I'm probably going to get one. I won't cry if I don't but this is going to be the boss level version of my favourite car and I think I'd later feel some regret if I passed on it.
So when I purchased my M2 with DCT it was a no cost option...now they want $7.5K, seriously why would anyone pay that?
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      01-03-2020, 09:31 PM   #1119
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Tag but that's my point...the B58 doesn't seem to share the same limitations when it comes to multiple iterations of power. It appears that it's much more "stout" at a basic level than the N55.

Why put the S58 into the platform if the B58 is sufficient, and meets the overall goal associated with the "right" performance level for the entry-level M car?

I hope they put the S58 into the new M2...I just don't think they will.
The B58 is not sufficient for 430-450hp

The B58 is not sufficient for BMW to distinguish the M2 from the M240i in marketing

M car comes with an M motor. They said it a few times already
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      01-03-2020, 10:46 PM   #1120
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Originally Posted by Tag View Post
How else would they come out with a Competition model if they N55 was tapped out for power? It's not just BMW saying that, even turners such as Dinan and others said there was little to no overhead to get more power out of the N55 without adding bigger turbos, intercoolers, etc. Sure some tunes can bump the power, but they don't have to warranty the car like BMW does.
Care to expand on what parts on the M2C show CS? That's something I haven't seen or heard of.
Look for example here, Tag:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
If anyone knows for sure please correct me if wrong.
I'm beginning to think BMW had the entire F87 platform—M2, M2C and M2CS—planned prior to every releasing the M2 and the whole closed deck thing was a mistaken reference to the S55.
Rumor has it (surfaced in January 2016) that an N55 M2 and S55 M2 were actually developed side-by-side, or at least within a small time window. The N55 M2 was supposed to be named "M2". And that happened. The S55 M2 was supposed to be called "M2 CS", due for release around 2018. And that did not happen: things took a turn in 2018 because of EU emissions homologation requirements taking force in September 2018 in Europe. Result: exit the N55 M2 and rebaptizing the S55 M2 as "M2 Competition". During the Summer of 2018: exit + enter. In VIN decoders exactly the same pre-production S55 M2 got labelled "M2 CS" and at some other point in time "M2 Competition". We may reasonably assume that the S55 M2 (temporary dubbed "M2 CS") that turned "M2 Competition", was not supposed to be sold at near-base-M2 price. But the problem was that there was no entry-level BMW M car anymore with the N55 M2 being retired. So the M2 Competition unexpectedly 'dropped' into the entry-level BMW M car position, with an attractive price. That's also why the M2 Competition will continue to be regarded as excellent value for money. Also from a price perspective, the M2 Competition stole the 450hp 2020 M2 CS thunder: if the M2 Competition would have been priced somewhere in the middle between base M2 price and base M4 price, the 2020 M2 CS price would be a little less hard to stomach.

Though this rumor has never been confirmed, M2 Competition owners may occasionally come across car parts featuring "CS" stamped on it.

picture below from forum fellow Cannondale900 + smknjoe + cb804:


Feel free to read my long post (post #1) on an 'old' dedicated M2 Competition speculation thread that you find here. Back in the day I updated that post from time to time and explained step by step my take on the (evolving) bigger picture of what IMHO was probably going on, based on bits and pieces scattered around, surfacing over time. Trying to see structures by connecting dots/clues, as outsider, at the risk of getting it all wrong or getting fooled by outdated info, because zero official information/confirmation by BMW back in those days.

Still today I believe that - at least at some point in time - the M2 Competition that we know now, was supposed to be the original "M2 CS", a more powerful sibling with distinguished quirks, due for sale alongside the entry-level base M2 + EU regulations triggered a rather spectacular plot twist (the "M2 Competition"/"M2 CS" replacing the base M2 as entry-level BMW M car, with a price-tag reflecting (very) good value for money).
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      01-03-2020, 10:53 PM   #1121
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Look for example here, Tag:


Feel free to read my long post (post #1) on an 'old' dedicated M2 Competition speculation thread that you find here. Back in the day I updated that post from time to time and explained step by step my take on the (evolving) bigger picture of what IMHO was probably going on, based on bits and pieces scattered around, surfacing over time. Trying to see structures by connecting dots/clues, as outsider, at the risk of getting it all wrong or getting fooled by outdated info, because zero official information/confirmation by BMW back in those days.

Still today I believe that - at least at some point in time - the M2 Competition that we know now, was supposed to be the original "M2 CS", a more powerful sibling with distinguished quirks, due for sale alongside the entry-level base M2 + EU regulations triggered a rather spectacular plot twist (the "M2 Competition"/"M2 CS" replacing the base M2 as entry-level BMW M car, with a price-tag reflecting (very) good value for money).
. M2C is going to go down as one of the best performance bargains in modern history. Those that can get the CS, good for you. If you can't one, don't loose sleep. The CS is the bargain for those that are shopping around in a significantly higher price tier. I can see folks argument for the CS being a "stupid purchase", but not if you were planning to spend 100k plus. I still drool over the N55 LBB M2 that I occasionally see around town.
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      01-03-2020, 11:34 PM   #1122
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Originally Posted by akkando View Post

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1606863

Maybe they were not going to do a Competition model at all. Internally it seemed they had the base f87, and the CS. The CS became the Competition when they had to drop the base model because n55 wouldn't meet emissions. At that point they had to either

#1 only sell s55 CS model in limited run and that's the end of the f87

#2 sell the s55 CS model in a non limited run

#3 spend the money to update the base model with the very very old n55 engine. They were never going to do this

#4 spend the money to develop a b58 engine base model M2 in a short period of time.

#5 Do what they did which was take the M2CS with the S55 which they already had developed and just call it a Competition model, develop a marketing strategy for it that leaves room for an actual CS model (just throw the aftermarket parts on with a tune for CS), remove the planned CS body pieces to lower the price, then sell those planned CS pieces as after market parts.



They didn't need to tune up the n55 engine for a competition model because there never was going to be a competition model in the first place. If there was they could have just thrown the M Performance parts bin stuff at it and the M3 seats. No need for a tune.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Look for example here, Tag:


Feel free to read my long post (post #1) on an 'old' dedicated M2 Competition speculation thread that you find here. Back in the day I updated that post from time to time and explained step by step my take on the (evolving) bigger picture of what IMHO was probably going on, based on bits and pieces scattered around, surfacing over time. Trying to see structures by connecting dots/clues, as outsider, at the risk of getting it all wrong or getting fooled by outdated info, because zero official information/confirmation by BMW back in those days.

Still today I believe that - at least at some point in time - the M2 Competition that we know now, was supposed to be the original "M2 CS", a more powerful sibling with distinguished quirks, due for sale alongside the entry-level base M2 + EU regulations triggered a rather spectacular plot twist (the "M2 Competition"/"M2 CS" replacing the base M2 as entry-level BMW M car, with a price-tag reflecting (very) good value for money).
Starting to come back to me now. Vaguely remember this, but for some reason recalled it the other way around. Thought the M2C was in development alongside the M2 and the M2 CS was only rumored as a long shot. The only reason I can think for the G87 to get the S58 is that the highest B58 output that I'm currently aware of only puts out 382-hp. I'm sure they can do some work to bump that up like they did with the OG M2's N55, but not sure it will reliably get to at least the same power output as M2C without major upgrades to the B58. At that point it would make more sense IMO to just put in a detuned S58 than try to engineer another B58 variant.
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