03-12-2019, 04:29 PM | #45 | |
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03-12-2019, 04:54 PM | #46 |
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There is a well documented history of this in aviation as well, one being the Italian vs. US assembled Bell 206. There were significant differences in reliability and unplanned maintenance over time.
Same could be said about Fender guitars and where they are assembled. With a $60,000 car, I think it's worth considering. |
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03-12-2019, 05:22 PM | #47 |
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By then, there should be solid data on defect rates and reliability from the 3ers built there. But, no matter what, a new design on a new production line is going to have some quality issues up front.
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03-12-2019, 06:58 PM | #48 | |
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You're assuming: The robots are all the same + The parts are all the same + The people all receive the same training = Cars will be exactly the same and anyone who thinks otherwise must be a xenophobe. The problem is that the parts are not the same. The driveline will be the same of course, as the engine and transmission will likely be shipped in from Germany or Austria or wherever those are produced. But for everything else, an entirely new supplier network will be established and cultivated from the region surrounding the new plant. Thousands of ancillary parts, from brackets to hoses to harnesses to switches will all be sourced from new companies. Items that used to come from long-standing partners in Croatia or Hungary or wherever will now be sourced from new providers in Ecuador or Venezuela or wherever. They will be specified to be exactly the same, of course, and in a perfect world a batch of 10,000 side-view-mirror motor switches would have the same 6-sigma quality whether they came from Ecuador or Hungary. But it's not a perfect world, and as governments and socioeconomic systems and labor laws and worker attitudes are different from country to country it's very difficult to eliminate variation, whether it's variation in worker dedication or variation in the failure rate of a window switch. It's entirely possible that an M2 made in Mexico ends up BETTER than one made in Germany, but where you believe it's asinine to think they would be different other people believe that differences are guaranteed and it's only a question of whether the differences are negligible - i.e. a difference in the color of a bracket in the trunk that you'll never even notice - vs. differences that are critical to the reliability of the car - i.e. a difference in the chemical composition of hoses that fail prematurely at low temperature. |
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03-12-2019, 08:02 PM | #49 | ||
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However, the stuff you were spewing about AOC, 'America losing to ____,' our president is God's gift to mankind and other slew of stuff I don't care about, pretty much made it obvious where your head was at.. If the shoe fits.. To digress from that, that's a very interesting argument on how parts vary from one region to the other. I would say that nowadays that isn't clean cut as you would assume. American cars use to be regarded as garbage and be the joke of the global market but within the last few years, the quality and dependability have increased substantially. Same with products from the Asian markets; quality of parts and even labor have exponentially improved where "Made in China" no longer have same negative connotation that it once did. Did you look at the back of your beloved iPhone lately to see where it was assembled.. I trust BMW's quality control and their name that they'll make the proper decisions to insure their vehicles don't deteriorate, regardless of where it is assembled. The same way when I purchase something simple as batteries and chose a brand like Duracell or Energizer; I know it's a quality product regardless of where or who they chose to produce it because I put my trust in that manufacture. Here's a Hollywood example trust in a brand name: |
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03-12-2019, 08:16 PM | #50 | |
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There's a lot of testing and benchmarking for production quality. They employee thousands of people responsible just for this. If a new supplier yields low quality products then someone at BMW specialised in the specific component will notice and flag it. It starts with trial batches, goes through different phases of evaluation and then gets approved. Even the plants will be built and organised according to pre-existing blueprints. There might be some variation in the manufacturing line setup but it still solely will use pre-approved BMW machinery and standards. Labour is the only variable that could influence the production but BMW doesn't have low standards of employment. Working at BMW, wherever in the world, is a good job for any career mechanic. I'd argue that because wages are so low in Mexico, there's much more competition to work for BMW and there's a good chance you'd get better and more motivated workers. BMW is the 10th biggest car corporation with more than a hundred years of experience. It's also one of the most profitable manufacturers. You really think they don't know what they're doing? |
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03-12-2019, 09:23 PM | #51 | |
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And yes, I know exactly where my iPhone was manufactured. As if it will do any good to emphasize it, I am open to products, foods, languages and cultures from around the world. All of which has absolutely zero to do with what we're talking about here, which is variation in manufacturing across differing regions and economies when brand new and highly-complex supply chains are established. If my calling you out is an issue, the mods are welcome to remove this. But I will not let stand your attributing ideas to me that I never typed. |
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03-12-2019, 09:51 PM | #52 | |
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As for the rest, I'm merely suggesting that it may be impossible to eliminate variation risk in complex new supply chains in new countries. If that makes me a heretic, I'm ok with that. |
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03-12-2019, 10:07 PM | #53 |
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This thread is not supposed to be turned into a political discussion. For politics, feel free to post in the dedicated section.
However, exceptionally, IMHO it is appropriate to make the following remark: it is saddening and disappointing to read comments in this thread reflecting low esteem, prejudice and lack of respect for/about Mexico and its people. Shame on you. Respect is a core value. For the record: during the second half of last century, Leipzig was part of the German Democratic Republic (D.D.R. aka East Germany), which was part of Comecon (an economic organization from 1949 to 1991 under the leadership of the Soviet Union). As we all know, after the fall of the Soviet Union and communist rule in Eastern Europe, Germany got reunified (1990). Ever since, Leipzig flourished in many ways (and it continues to flourish). BMW built a state-of-the-art factory in Leipzig: the Leipzig plant, building BMW cars since 2005, including the F87 M2 nowadays. With all the R&D, infrastructure, tools, materials, protocols, formation, support, maintenance, quality control, etc. the Leipzig workforce undoubtedly gives its level best to deliver, day after day, car after car, like their colleagues in other BMW plants worldwide do. BMW recently built a state-of-the-art factory in Mexico: the San Luis Potosí plant, building the new BMW 3er this year. So ask yourself: as the proof of the pudding is in the eating, isn't it outright unfair to assume that the workforce at the BMW San Luis Potosí plant won't manage to deliver like their colleagues in other BMW plants do ? Everyone's entitled to a fair chance.
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03-12-2019, 10:57 PM | #54 |
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Viva Mexico and the new M2 gen ///
Can finally put a Mexican flag (half breed here) on car and drive it...lol Now that I think of it I should apply for dual residence passport and hopefully the US dollars is good in rate exchange...
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03-13-2019, 02:35 AM | #56 |
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Fantastic I've always wanted to do a Mexican delivery!
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03-13-2019, 04:36 AM | #57 |
Luxury at the redline :)
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Anyone have any guess what motor will be the next generation G87 M2?
Some folks in another forum are speculating that the next M2 will have a single turbo built B58 and standard M Performance 2 series (G42) will have a stout version of the B48 4 cylinder. I wouldn't be surprise if BMW does shoehorn a B58; for one, to keep the cost in check and also to keep the M2 under the proper pecking order of power and prestige, in comparison to the M4. BMW has made several revisions to the B58 which is putting out close to 400hp, turn up the boost a little and - voila, the next M2 motor is born.. That's until the Competition version with a S58 is released a year later. I don't feel like it really needs a S58 motor if it would keep the sticker price in check but some next generation Adaptive Suspension and calipers that could fit 18 inch wheels would be divine.. https://www.bmwblog.com/2018/10/31/b...88-horsepower/ |
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03-13-2019, 12:18 PM | #58 |
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Interested to see how the G87 unfolds. I have had M cars since 1989 (starting with an E30 M3), but M seems to become too soft and heavy for me.
I must admit, I am really excited to see the: 2020 Lotus Elise / Exige. That may check all the boxes for me. Never thought I would leave the M brand, but all the pork and M variants are saturating a once great brand.
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03-13-2019, 06:53 PM | #59 |
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What do you guys think about this.
1M Coupe. parts bin car! Engine from Z4 3.5is Gearbox 6 speed from 135i Rear diff m3 e90/e92 rear subframe also from m3 Bmw M2 Same story. Everything is comming from other models in production. M2C Same story again. The M2 only exits because it wil always be a parts bin car. No lets talk about new M2 in 2022 or so. There is no manual gearbox available evey bmw has an automatic. There will not be a DCT only made for the M2. DCT box is also very expensive. New M3 will get ZF8 HPX box which means awd to rwd option. Engine could be B58 or maybe detuned S58. Pricewise the B58 is the best option. How about the body. 1M coupe was made from a smaller base the e87 1 series. The m2 has been made from the 1 series f21 base New 1 series is fwd platform and build m2 from it will not happen i quess. Maybe it will be build from the z4 platform. Were will the new m2 be build from? This car wil not be sold in such big numbers if you compare to the m3 and m4. Will the new m2 get it s own platform? The 1m coupe and m2 was build as a parts bin car.from other platforms and parts. What will be the base for the new M2? Z4 base would not be a bad idea. Smaller wheel base more agile car. Last edited by Advevo; 03-13-2019 at 07:06 PM.. |
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03-13-2019, 08:31 PM | #60 | |
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03-13-2019, 08:55 PM | #61 |
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I think all the different M this and M that, M performance parts here M performance parts there have diluted what an M car used to be. They can be had in even the most run of the mill BMW base car. Every soccer mom can now drive an "M" X5.
Now they're trying to cut the M division into even more derivatives; the base, the competition, the cs, gts. Every time they squeeze in a new model where there wasn't one before, it dilutes the prestige IMO. Growing up, there was a regular 3 series and then a huge gap before you got to the high performance version. That felt special. Now, there's a bunch of variants in between, each with a tiny step up as it gets closer, the disparity isn't as great, it barely feels special compared to the model just underneath it. In the case of the f87 M2, the m240i is hardly a step down. The new M340i, a REGULAR new 3 series is almost identical in performance to a CURRENT production M car.... having an M car was the pinnacle, now it feels like just another add on option. They split the 3 series into the sedan and introduced the 4 series as the coupe..... well now that has a sedan also and serves as just another rung in the ladder. It's like an oversized menu at a restaurant, you know they can't make all of it with the same amount of detail or prestige. I think this is causing more harm to future M cars more than them being built outside of Germany... I say all this while I'm waiting for my 2020MY M2C..... Rant over |
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03-14-2019, 01:26 AM | #62 |
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I am sure they'll build a nice little car, hopefully it will be minimalistic and a balanced performer.
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03-14-2019, 08:18 AM | #63 | |||||
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In summation, given the available tools in corporate toolshed, I strongly suspect that the G42 and G87 will be fantastic vehicles. |
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03-14-2019, 10:17 AM | #64 | |
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03-19-2019, 06:47 PM | #65 | |
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Give me four doors ( and rear drive) and I'll upgrade tomorrow. |
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