[biggripper]

Originally Posted by Marlbombs

The car in question is a 2019 White M2C with 11k miles. VIN WBS2U7C58KVJ07602. Services records showed proper maintenance and only a replaced taillamp and the trunk lid had been repainted under warranty due to peeling, which the service advisor thought was odd. It is currently listed at Bill Currie Ford in Tampa, FL. On the surface the car is fine. The salesman told me he knew the previous owner, Logan, well and that the car was driven by his wife and well cared for. But in the PPI he found a missing exhaust hanger, wrench marks on all the suspension mounting bolts and also on the exhaust bolts. It had obviously had an aftermarket suspension and exhaust. The car was not flagged in their system and passed diagnostics. However, when he took the car off the rack he had me get in and ride with him and there was a distinct clicking/grinding noise coming from the suspension. It was much easier to hear inching the car forward in the shop than out on the road. The suspension had probably not be been put back on properly, but he said it was possible it had aftermarket strut tops, which would mean a warranty repair wouldnt be covered, but wouldnt know without taking it apart. He also said in his opinion, the car would probably be fine, but if it were him there were too many small red flags that he himself would probably not buy it.

In the meantime, my friend found a post in a local BMW classified group on facebook, where a young man named Logan said "2 Competition : Gonna put the car back to stock and dump it, anyone interested in full AA exhaust (downpipes + signature) w/ CF tips + AKRA rear diffuser + m performance coilovers?" When asked in the comments why he was getting rid of the car he said "Wish I could say the same man. Hate this car lol." and "Terrible reliability.
I have a lot of complaints but that's for another post. These parts are all good."

I got in the car at BMW to take it back to the ford dealership, and since I had both keys with me, it asked me which driver was driving, Taylor (his fiance per facebook) or Logan. I do not know the previous owner, and I am not suggesting he did anything wrong. Just showing that it was clear that this was definitely the same car. I have no proof that the ford dealer knew anything about this, but they pressured me to do the deal without the inspection and claimed the car passed their inspection process. I am only stating the facts as they played out, but would caution anyone considering this car that it may have had a short, but rough life. I may have missed a good deal but I think I may have dodged a bullet.

It's funny, I was looking at this very car but ended up going with a nearly identical car from a BMW dealership in MS. I didn't have a good vibe buying a M2C from a non BMW dealership. Glad I trusted my gut.

[Marlbombs]

So I am in a stalemate with the seller on this one. Again, very low mileage car (<5k), clean carfax, clean BMW service records, he sent me a walk around video and the car looks immaculate, showed me all the VIN plates in the video, even has it hooked up to battery tender bc he never drives it. But he will not take it to BMW for a PPI. It's raining non-stop in his area and he doesn't want to get the undercarriage dirty (he says it has never seen rain) plus the local BMW damaged a previous car of his so he doesn't trust them. Not really sure what to do here...Might have to walk away which would be a shame.

[jkoral]

Originally Posted by Marlbombs

So I am in a stalemate with the seller on this one. Again, very low mileage car (<5k), clean carfax, clean BMW service records, he sent me a walk around video and the car looks immaculate, showed me all the VIN plates in the video, even has it hooked up to battery tender bc he never drives it. But he will not take it to BMW for a PPI. It's raining non-stop in his area and he doesn't want to get the undercarriage dirty (he says it has never seen rain) plus the local BMW damaged a previous car of his so he doesn't trust them. Not really sure what to do here...Might have to walk away which would be a shame.

Although I agree a PPI is always recommended, exceptions can be made.

I bought a BMW with 3K from a private seller that also had never been driven in the rain and I did not get a PPI. I went with my gut feel about the seller and took the risk. (How many people change the oil at delivery with 5 miles on the odometer and get a Blackstone analysis?)

Regardless if he has service records, dealers can print out the service history of the car, which at least would tell you if there were some warranty issues resolved that he failed to mention. Unfortunately most dealers will only allow the owner of the car to get this information.

If I had that report, combined with a good feeling about the seller, and depending on the scarcity of the car in the configuration I desired, I would purchase without a PPI.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by jkoral

Although I agree a PPI is always recommended, exceptions can be made.

I bought a BMW with 3K from a private seller that also had never been driven in the rain and I did not get a PPI. I went with my gut feel about the seller and took the risk. (How many people change the oil at delivery with 5 miles on the odometer and get a Blackstone analysis?)

Regardless if he has service records, dealers can print out the service history of the car, which at least would tell you if there were some warranty issues resolved that he failed to mention. Unfortunately most dealers will only allow the owner of the car to get this information.

If I had that report, combined with a good feeling about the seller, and depending on the scarcity of the car in the configuration I desired, I would purchase without a PPI.

I agree with this as well. Plus the OP says that he has a clean service history on this from BMW. However OP, I would go see this car in person, and visually inspect it and drive it first, and then hand over the check. I assume you were planning to do this? You've already done the carfax and BMW service check.

[Marlbombs]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

I agree with this as well. Plus the OP says that he has a clean service history on this from BMW. However OP, I would go see this car in person, and visually inspect it and drive it first, and then hand over the check. I assume you were planning to do this? You've already done the carfax and BMW service check.

Yeah, BMW told me the car had been in for the 1200 running in, came in for a service action on a taillight at 3400 miles and also had the oil changed then, and that was the extent of the service records. I cant really see what harm could have come to the car with that service history and a clean carfax in under 5k miles.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by Marlbombs

Yeah, BMW told me the car had been in for the 1200 running in, came in for a service action on a taillight at 3400 miles and also had the oil changed then, and that was the extent of the service records. I cant really see what harm could have come to the car with that service history and a clean carfax in under 5k miles.

You going to see the car in person first? I would suggest that. See it, drive it, and hand over the money

[Fuji550i]

Originally Posted by Marlbombs

Yeah, BMW told me the car had been in for the 1200 running in, came in for a service action on a taillight at 3400 miles and also had the oil changed then, and that was the extent of the service records. I cant really see what harm could have come to the car with that service history and a clean carfax in under 5k miles.

OP Sounds like you really need to buy a brand new car from the dealer to have a peace of mind. A PPi is especially helpful on a 3 to 4 old year old used car to let you know all the issues come with the car. With a car less than 5k and maybe a 1 year old? You are not going to find many issues unless the car is a lemon. It's a good sign to see owner follow the oil change recommendation and love their car and try not to drive it in the rain if it's true.

Good luck with your search.

[Marlbombs]

Originally Posted by Fuji550i

OP Sounds like you really need to buy a brand new car from the dealer to have a peace of mind. A PPi is especially helpful on a 3 to 4 old year old used car to let you know all the issues come with the car. With a car less than 5k and maybe a 1 year old? You are not going to find many issues unless the car is a lemon. It's a good sign to see owner follow the oil change recommendation and love their car and try not to drive it in the rain if it's true.

Good luck with your search.

No I am with you. This is about as close as I will come to a new car, but without paying the premium.

[Marlbombs]

Well seller flaked on me. I told him I was willing to work something out where I just come there and view the car in person with payment in hand instead of a PPI and he told me he's decided hes probably just going to keep the car and take it off the market. Back to the drawing board...again.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by Marlbombs

Well seller flaked on me. I told him I was willing to work something out where I just come there and view the car in person with payment in hand instead of a PPI and he told me he's decided hes probably just going to keep the car and take it off the market. Back to the drawing board...again.

Smells fishy...

[Marlbombs]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

Smells fishy...

Based on my other experience, I tend to agree. Would you all be leery of a car with 15k miles? Also has good service records and a clean carfax. However it does have an AA exhaust on it. Its for sale at a reputable dealer.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by Marlbombs

Based on my other experience, I tend to agree. Would you all be leery of a car with 15k miles? Also has good service records and a clean carfax. However it does have an AA exhaust on it. Its for sale at a reputable dealer.

No, unless other factors exist. Many M cars always will have some mods like exhaust. Check the service records and carfax to see if all good. And with a dealer sale you have more recourse. Is it a BMW dealer or other?

[Marlbombs]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

No, unless other factors exist. Many M cars always will have some mods like exhaust. Check the service records and carfax to see if all good. And with a dealer sale you have more recourse. Is it a BMW dealer or other?

Not a BMW dealership. Its at a Lexus dealer.

[cptobvious]

Originally Posted by Marlbombs

Based on my other experience, I tend to agree. Would you all be leery of a car with 15k miles? Also has good service records and a clean carfax. However it does have an AA exhaust on it. Its for sale at a reputable dealer.

Marlbombs, sir, if I can interject some economic theory, it may shed some light on the conundrum you face. George Akerlof won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 2001 for his work on asymmetric information - in particular, he wrote a seminal paper in 1970 called, "The Market for Lemons: Quality Uncertainty and the Market Mechanism." Effectively, he explained why all used cars for the longest time were ALL lemons.

1. Suppose that a peach is worth $4,000, while a lemon is worth $0
2. In our model, let's also suppose that the used car market is comprised of 50% lemons and 50% peaches
3. Let's also suppose that as a buyer, you have no way of telling if any given car you come across in the used car market is a lemon or a peach - you can't tell by looking at the car!
4. Under those circumstances, what should you pay for a used car?
5. Traditionally, you would simply pay the "expected value" which is 50% * $4,000 + 50% * $0 = $2,000
6. However, the used car market falls under a special case, in which there is information asymmetry - the seller has perfect information about the car, whereas the buyer has ZERO information
7. As a seller, I know if my car is a peach or a lemon. If it's a peach, I know with 100% certainty that it's worth $4,000. But, as a buyer, you can only offer $2,000 as $2,000 is the expected value. Therefore, no peaches ever reach the market. After all, why in the world would I ever offer to sell you my peach for $2,000 when I know it's worth $4,000???
8. So, back in the bad old days, ALL used cars for sale were lemons
9. The market solved this problem by offering CPO
10. Now, as a buyer, even though you have ZERO information, the dealership is warranting the quality of the used car, by offering to fix any and all defects - it's a strong signal that the car must be a peach

What does this have to do with your search for a used M2C?

a. Who buys M cars? Hooligans who want to do hooligan things to their cars
b. Who sells their M cars? Hooligans who have modded the hell out of their cars, because they're car enthusiasts, and then sell the cars they've been driving at 7000 RPM 90% of the time in order to buy the next hooligan car they're going to mod the hell out of
c. There are people out there who buy M cars because they love cars and put Xpel over everything and only drive the car on the weekends to Cars & Coffee, always keeping the thing under 3000 RPM... because they finally got to buy this beautiful object they've been lusting after all their lives... But, these people keep their M cars, they don't sell them

So, what this should tell you is that if you want a used M2C, you should only be looking at CPO cars from reputable BMW dealers. Or, there was a gentleman on this forum who had to sell his M2C to pay for his daughter's tuition, you can bet he treated his peach right, and only sold it under duress, and I'm certain he would have let you PPI his car - but those are very rare cases.

Otherwise, according to Akerlof's work on information asymmetry, every used M2C you come across is going to be like FSU_Logan's - douchy douchebag trying to swindle your money by selling you a lemon.

[JCZ5]

@cptobvious so eloquently written, as always.

At the end of the day, it's your choice and your money, OP. But I agree with Cpt in saying a good portion of M owners are indeed "hooligans" (just search M cars on YouTube). M cars are very mainstream these days and it is the de-facto choice for a great "high-end" performance car. The reason is because it is so "affordable".

As the saying goes, buy the seller...

[Marlbombs]

Originally Posted by cptobvious

Marlbombs, sir, if I can interject some economic theory, it may shed some light on the conundrum you face. George Akerlof won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 2001 for his work on asymmetric information - in particular, he wrote a seminal paper in 1970 called, "The Market for Lemons: Quality Uncertainty and the Market Mechanism." Effectively, he explained why all used cars for the longest time were ALL lemons.

1. Suppose that a peach is worth $4,000, while a lemon is worth $0
2. In our model, let's also suppose that the used car market is comprised of 50% lemons and 50% peaches
3. Let's also suppose that as a buyer, you have no way of telling if any given car you come across in the used car market is a lemon or a peach - you can't tell by looking at the car!
4. Under those circumstances, what should you pay for a used car?
5. Traditionally, you would simply pay the "expected value" which is 50% * $4,000 + 50% * $0 = $2,000
6. However, the used car market falls under a special case, in which there is information asymmetry - the seller has perfect information about the car, whereas the buyer has ZERO information
7. As a seller, I know if my car is a peach or a lemon. If it's a peach, I know with 100% certainty that it's worth $4,000. But, as a buyer, you can only offer $2,000 as $2,000 is the expected value. Therefore, no peaches ever reach the market. After all, why in the world would I ever offer to sell you my peach for $2,000 when I know it's worth $4,000???
8. So, back in the bad old days, ALL used cars for sale were lemons
9. The market solved this problem by offering CPO
10. Now, as a buyer, even though you have ZERO information, the dealership is warranting the quality of the used car, by offering to fix any and all defects - it's a strong signal that the car must be a peach

What does this have to do with your search for a used M2C?

a. Who buys M cars? Hooligans who want to do hooligan things to their cars
b. Who sells their M cars? Hooligans who have modded the hell out of their cars, because they're car enthusiasts, and then sell the cars they've been driving at 7000 RPM 90% of the time in order to buy the next hooligan car they're going to mod the hell out of
c. There are people out there who buy M cars because they love cars and put Xpel over everything and only drive the car on the weekends to Cars & Coffee, always keeping the thing under 3000 RPM... because they finally got to buy this beautiful object they've been lusting after all their lives... But, these people keep their M cars, they don't sell them

So, what this should tell you is that if you want a used M2C, you should only be looking at CPO cars from reputable BMW dealers. Or, there was a gentleman on this forum who had to sell his M2C to pay for his daughter's tuition, you can bet he treated his peach right, and only sold it under duress, and I'm certain he would have let you PPI his car - but those are very rare cases.

Otherwise, according to Akerlof's work on information asymmetry, every used M2C you come across is going to be like FSU_Logan's - douchy douchebag trying to swindle your money by selling you a lemon.

LOL I was an Econ major so I am familiar with this theory. I have been looking for CPO cars as well. However, CPO doesn't seem to always equate to a peach but rather a lemon with a good warranty. CPO cars are currently hard to find. The only one I can find right now is a 20k mile car up in PA, and I am trying to stay away from northern cars. Appreciate the effort in your post.

[Montaver]

Always 'buy the owner' in my experience. I'd rather buy private party than dealer (even CPO) for this reason. To use cptobvious analogy, if I knew I had a lemon (or was in a rush) I'd be chopping it in at a dealer. Dealers don't pay 'peach' money so I would t give them a peach unless I had to. I sold my pretty minty low mileage E90 M3 with some tasteful mods for $10k more on this forum than I was offered by a dealer.

Buying private party you can get a good feeling for whether they treated the car with mechanical sympathy, their level of knowledge about the car (enthusiast), and the big one when it comes to the S55 - has it been tuned or not which kills the powertrain warranty. Although if your going to tune it anyway that doesn't matter. I bought my E90 M3 off it's original owner, no PPI. My E46 I got a PPI as it had multiple owners. Most M2C's will be max 1 owner.

[JggyM2]

Originally Posted by Marlbombs

So I am in a stalemate with the seller on this one. Again, very low mileage car (<5k), clean carfax, clean BMW service records, he sent me a walk around video and the car looks immaculate, showed me all the VIN plates in the video, even has it hooked up to battery tender bc he never drives it. But he will not take it to BMW for a PPI. It's raining non-stop in his area and he doesn't want to get the undercarriage dirty (he says it has never seen rain) plus the local BMW damaged a previous car of his so he doesn't trust them. Not really sure what to do here...Might have to walk away which would be a shame.

yeah agree. definitely get the PPI at bmw dealership. seems fishy and weird reasons to not take it there especially if you're paying for it.

[Fuji550i]

Originally Posted by Marlbombs

No I am with you. This is about as close as I will come to a new car, but without paying the premium.

Have you look at the forum classifies. It has a few M2c worth look into if you don't mind other colors.

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by Fuji550i

Have you look at the forum classifies. It has a few M2c worth look into if you don't mind other colors.

Yeah, I was gonna say the same. There are so many on here, and good deals even...

[Marlbombs]

Yes I've been keeping my eye on the classifieds here as well.

[robertm]

Originally Posted by Marlbombs

Based on my other experience, I tend to agree. Would you all be leery of a car with 15k miles? Also has good service records and a clean carfax. However it does have an AA exhaust on it. Its for sale at a reputable dealer.

Have this PPIed by BMW dealer? I've had used BMWs at a non BMW dealership PPIed.

This all comes back to what you've seen first hand. If someone doesn't want to get a PPI done then there is quite likely a dam good reason.

Because these cars are still under warranty I would only accept BMW PPI.

Hang in there. I spent 6 months and 3 PPIs before I found the Z4 Mcoupe I wanted. Spent close to $1000 on PPIs and they were ea worth their weight in gold. One of the cars I passed on ended up on Bring a Trailer. It was a complete mess and none of it divulged by seller. He even used part of the PPI (which I paid for) in the BaT add. Of course it was missing all of the pics that the dealer took showing significant issues.

My recommendation is NO PPI then NO SALE.