[Ikester19]

Originally Posted by 1mm2

The Cayman base is simply not exciting enough vis a vis the M2C for everyday driving. On the track sure.

Mustang is a boat a la M3.

Don't know WTF the Supra is...

Lol.. the Supra is an ugly BMW!

The answer I guess will be the M2 CS

[FogCityM3]

Sorry, but I have to agree with the GT350 winning this one. Had the R version for two years and zero question, is far more special than anything from BMW. Normally aspirated, FPC engine, unreal exhaust note, far far far more sophisticated suspension vs any M car (GTS included), does NOT handle like a boat (will out handle any M car given the track times). Moved on to a GT3 RS and have to say, the 350 is really more of a competitor to the GT3/RS in terms of uniqueness and outright performance ability. It is an incredible value for what you get and the performance differential makes up for the slightly lower interior quality. The only issue is that some engines were blowing, but the problems with the early builds have been corrected in 2019 with new engine designs and so far, so good.

[jkoral]

1. GT350 ($65K)
2. Supra ($57K)
3. Cayman ($72K)
4. M2C ($64K)

C&D summary on M2C:
Pros: Monster engine, easy to live with, practical for every day use
Cons: Unreliable brakes, are we really still listing "soulless steering here"
Verdict: The best car in BMW's lineup needs to be a better driving machine

[Obioban]

[TSM330i]

It'll be interesting to see if there's any improvement for the M2C in the Lightning Lap from C&D. Looks like the November issue will have it in this year.

From the past editions:
Camaro ZL1 1LE (2017) - 2:45.7
Camaro ZL1 (2017) - 2:50.1
GT350R (2016) - 2:51.8
Stingray (2014) - 2:53.8
Mustang GT PP2 - 2:53.8
Camaro SS 1LE - 2:54.8
BMW M2 (2016) - 3:01.9

That is a TON of time to make up on the track. I'm not sure the M2C difference will make up that kind of time.
A standard GT350 should be a bit quicker than the GT PP2 as well. They've made some upgrades to the GT350 suspension as well.

For pricing - I'm not sure $48K is all that expensive anymore. The average cost of a new car is $37K! Average! As others have said, discounts will apply and get you closer to $44K for the Mustang PP2 more than likely.

In the end, isn't it about performance? Over and over again I've read articles of how BMW has lost their steering feel and that the cars just aren't as outstanding as they have been. The M2C is a direct competitor to the Mustang and Camaro. If you go for the top cars in the Mustang and Camaro, pricing is very similar, only the Mustang GT350 and the Camaro ZL1 have MUCH more performance for that same money. A used standard ZL1 can be had for under $50K. A used ZL1 1LE can be had for $55K - $60K.

I guess in the end, to each, his own.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

In the end, isn't it about performance?

Is it though? If you're tracking it then yep it is but TBH for the road it comes down to the kick in the pants you get and how nice she feels to take a long bend or toss corner to corner. Then there's the sheer shit-eating-grin aspect to consider based on organic engine and exhaust sounds.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Is it though? If you're tracking it then yep it is but TBH for the road it comes down to the kick in the pants you get and how nice she feels to take a long bend or toss corner to corner. Then there's the sheer shit-eating-grin aspect to consider based on organic engine and exhaust sounds.

I think it is. No one buys an M2 because it’s comfortable and rides smooth. It’s about the styling and excitement. And in my opinion comfort and Lucy come 3rd and 4th. M cars are about hooliganism. But also some class

M2 wins in class. But American cars win in performance and hooliganism.

[VisualEcho]

Everything is about context. How they drive cars and what they need from them, compared to how each of us might use them is completely different. Buy the car that suits your needs.

[SergioC]

It seems like every few months C&D is comparing the M2 to something. I'm still thrilled that I drive a car that frequents car magazines.

Also, it's awesome that the other 3 cars exist. But I'm not a mustang person, and the current iteration of the other 2 don't do it for me. I go to lots of cars & coffee type outings with a GT350 friend and I admire & respect all kinds of cars but I wouldn't own most of them.

[bri1042]

Yet another review where the only car on Sport Cup 2's wins. Take those off the GT350 and put on PSS's or PS4's to match the other three cars...and then either re-run this test or just go home.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Yet another review where the only car on Sport Cup 2's wins. Take those off the GT350 and put on PSS's or PS4's to match the other three cars...and then either re-run this test or just go home.

For a track comparison I would agree with you. But for every day driving or canyon carving you can’t get the SC2s up to enough temp to make a difference. And for mostly a street driving comparison it only makes sense to leave them on the rubber they left the factory with.

[HawaiiShrimp]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

I think it is. No one buys an M2 because it’s comfortable and rides smooth. It’s about the styling and excitement. And in my opinion comfort and Lucy come 3rd and 4th. M cars are about hooliganism. But also some class

M2 wins in class. But American cars win in performance and hooliganism.

When I see people driving the modern mustang of any kind (note: new ones, not the classics), I usually laughed behind their backs and said to myself: "What a fucking loser with no taste in cars. With all the cars available, you pick a boat to drive."

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by HawaiiShrimp

When I see people driving the modern mustang of any kind (note: new ones, not the classics), I usually laughed behind their backs and said to myself: "What a fucking loser with no taste in cars. With all the cars available, you pick a boat to drive."

That’s the nice thing about opinions. Even idiots get to have them.

[airborne777]

Originally Posted by 1mm2

Cayman is base model with a 4 pot. Sound and lag under 2000 is a deal killer even though the mid engine layout is superior on the track. The street, not so much...

Not a deal killer with Sport Chronos. very effective.

Looking at their numbers.

Two things stand out to me.

1. The exterior styling is a subjective criteria. I am not sure how M2 and Cayman lose out to a Mustang.
2 The fun to drive is pretty telling and it hurts the M2 a lot.

[c1pher]

Weird. I thought I had responded already. While I do think the Mustang is cool, it’s just too big and heavy especially compared to the others. I prefer a smaller car if possible.

My preference would be:
1. 718
2. M2
3. Supra
4. Mustang

I realize they kept $60k as a general benchmark but none of them were. The Mustang was top of range as is the M2. So the 718 in base form was competing with the higher end versions of its competitors. I think a Cayman S, even in base form to keep the price down would have been more appropriate.

I also get tired of the four cylinder complaint. No one says that about the Alfa 4c. It costs $67k to start and is even smaller displacement. If you seriously don’t like four cylinders, just get a 2016 Cayman GTS for the same money (you get a similar performance result as the base 718) or wait for the flat sixes to return. The base 718 power or whatever is so underrated by Porsche which is the only reason it can hang with the others (besides all the other awesome stuff).

I am still trying to get over the BMW Supra. In some sense that’s a good thing. I love the engine which is the sweet inline six and the ZF8, while good, is only a slight letdown since it’s not manual or DCT. I wish it were a more pure form of Toyota I guess and the looks are polarizing. I’ve never driven a Supra, so maybe I could be swayed.

The M2 is handsome, performs great and in some sense could be a poor man’s 911 being a 2+2. Great seating position. The engine has a wonderful pedigree etc. I really considered replacing my 135is with an M2 but dealers were crazy with pricing at the time. Now that discounts are to be had, they make a lot more sense.

For the time being, I will enjoy my Macan Turbo that replaced my 135is. It is a little bigger than I like despite being a smaller SUV, but drives like a sports car. Cobb tune just puts it over the top, consistently logging sub 4 second 0-60s. I am amazed at how sports car like it goes around corners.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by airborne777

Not a deal killer with Sport Chronos. very effective.

Looking at their numbers.

Two things stand out to me.

1. The exterior styling is a subjective criteria. I am not sure how M2 and Cayman lose out to a Mustang.
2 The fun to drive is pretty telling and it hurts the M2 a lot.

To add onto the subjectivity, the Supra and 718 got zero points for having no back seat. The point delta for these cars were 5 points or 2.5%. That’s how tight the scoring was. So if you removed the backseat category, the 718 and Supra are essentially neck and neck with the Mustang but the M2 falls further behind. This review ends up being a non review because with points being so close, there is no clear winner.

[No Boost]

This thread should be moved to the M2 Competition subforum.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by c1pher

Weird. I thought I had responded already. While I do think the Mustang is cool, it’s just too big and heavy especially compared to the others. I prefer a smaller car if possible.

My preference would be:
1. 718
2. M2
3. Supra
4. Mustang

What's your definition of "too heavy"? I ask because on a race track a GT350 will sneak up on an M2 in the corners, then blow it out on the next straight. Seen this happen a few times. And than as the Mustang passes you can yell at it that you're lighter

So in theory you have the moral high ground with less weight is better, but in this case that's like telling a Tesla that it's too heavy to drag race.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by c1pher

Weird. I thought I had responded already. While I do think the Mustang is cool, it’s just too big and heavy especially compared to the others. I prefer a smaller car if possible.

My preference would be:
1. 718
2. M2
3. Supra
4. Mustang

What's your definition of "too heavy"? I ask because on a race track a GT350 will sneak up on an M2 in the corners, then blow it out on the next straight. Seen this happen a few times. And than as the Mustang passes you you can yell at it that you're lighter

So in theory you have the moral high ground with less weight is better, but in this case that's like telling a Tesla that it's too heavy to drag race.

[airborne777]

Originally Posted by c1pher

Weird. I thought I had responded already. While I do think the Mustang is cool, it’s just too big and heavy especially compared to the others. I prefer a smaller car if possible.

My preference would be:
1. 718
2. M2
3. Supra
4. Mustang

I realize they kept $60k as a general benchmark but none of them were. The Mustang was top of range as is the M2. So the 718 in base form was competing with the higher end versions of its competitors. I think a Cayman S, even in base form to keep the price down would have been more appropriate.

I also get tired of the four cylinder complaint. No one says that about the Alfa 4c. It costs $67k to start and is even smaller displacement. If you seriously don’t like four cylinders, just get a 2016 Cayman GTS for the same money (you get a similar performance result as the base 718) or wait for the flat sixes to return. The base 718 power or whatever is so underrated by Porsche which is the only reason it can hang with the others (besides all the other awesome stuff).

I am still trying to get over the BMW Supra. In some sense that’s a good thing. I love the engine which is the sweet inline six and the ZF8, while good, is only a slight letdown since it’s not manual or DCT. I wish it were a more pure form of Toyota I guess and the looks are polarizing. I’ve never driven a Supra, so maybe I could be swayed.

The M2 is handsome, performs great and in some sense could be a poor man’s 911 being a 2+2. Great seating position. The engine has a wonderful pedigree etc. I really considered replacing my 135is with an M2 but dealers were crazy with pricing at the time. Now that discounts are to be had, they make a lot more sense.

For the time being, I will enjoy my Macan Turbo that replaced my 135is. It is a little bigger than I like despite being a smaller SUV, but drives like a sports car. Cobb tune just puts it over the top, consistently logging sub 4 second 0-60s. I am amazed at how sports car like it goes around corners.

I agree with your assessment.

For short while i ran a M2C and a 718 side by side so i agree with your assessment based upon my experience.

On the whole 4 cylinder complaint against the 718, it is a boring and tired argument.


I will tell you that the 718 gets X10 attention than any Mustang or rest of the list. I used the M2C when i wanted to be "discreet" ;-)

[1mm2]

Originally Posted by airborne777

Not a deal killer with Sport Chronos. very effective.

Looking at their numbers.

Two things stand out to me.

1. The exterior styling is a subjective criteria. I am not sure how M2 and Cayman lose out to a Mustang.
2 The fun to drive is pretty telling and it hurts the M2 a lot.

Agree on all.

PDK/SportChrono only way to go if base to avoid lag under 2000.

I find the styling to be M2C then Cayman with the other two far behind.
I have never driven the 350 or Supra but have driven the M2C and Cayman S back to back.

Cayman S ia a track scalpel.

M2C street hooligan, by far more "fun" to drive...

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

What's your definition of "too heavy"? I ask because on a race track a GT350 will sneak up on an M2 in the corners, then blow it out on the next straight. Seen this happen a few times. And than as the Mustang passes you you can yell at it that you're lighter

So in theory you have the moral high ground with less weight is better, but in this case that's like telling a Tesla that it's too heavy to drag race.

This isn’t about a morality. I mean you’re pushing 3800lbs around plus driver weight and the engine is up on top of the front wheel suspension so you also have a lot of polar moment of inertia going on that has to be reigned back in.

Also, the GT350 is just a big car. It’s longer than an Audi S4 or a Porsche Macan. It’s more challenging to position a car that size on a track. I mean it’s not impossible and definitely doable, especially if you are very talented, but more challenging nonetheless.

And again tires make a huge difference. If the GT350 didn’t have cup tires on, which are one step above actual track tires, it wouldn’t have performed nearly as spectacularly. Or look at it the other way around and put cup tires on the other three cars and they smoke the GT350. Read this article where they compare the Stingray against GT350 and they are both wearing Pilot Super Sports. GT350 gets 1.0G compared to the Corvette’s 1.05.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...mparison-test/

Reading the four car article, the reviewers seemed to think they should have been able to get more out of the car based on the paper specs, but in the end merely eeked out a victory against a four cylinder car. If that tells you anything it’s actually how well engineered the Porsche is. I mean the GT350 has 225 more HP and 150 more torque! The performance delta should be far greater.