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      04-10-2015, 09:31 AM   #573
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This question and thread is as subjective as asking: "cream or sugar - mustard or mayo - clean or shaven". I mean honestly... Who truly gives a shit? If my brother, cousin, friend, neighbor or business associate decided to buy a rep, would I call him out or even ask why? Fok no! That is THEIR ca$h and choice. If it's good enough for them, then who am I to judge? Or you for that matter...
Now then, at some point in our history, watches were actually used for telling time! That was probably a good 40-50yrs ago. Well before our time. Nowadays, watches are no more than "glorified accessories". Before you go all sensitive and irate just because YOU decided to drop all that bread on a watch, I am NOT defending either side! Hell, if you want to spend $10, 15, 20k on a watch and can, more power to you. I can dig it! BUT, on the flip side, if you can't or even can and choose NOT to, I can also dig it!
Now how would I choose to spend my own bread you may ask? On neither! Although I can certainly appreciate a fine timepiece (especially Automatic), I refuse to exceed a certain $ amount on ANY watch. I don't care if it can tell time on Jupiter or fly itself onto my wrist when I hop out the shower. It's just not my thing. Sure I can afford one or two. But nah, pass. On that same token, I choose not to buy a rep either. Mostly because I'm not a fan of the styles of these high $$$ brands. So no need for me to front either.
Very rarely do I even look at my watch to get the time when my cell phones are always in hand or nearby. But I do like watches as accessories! And own quite a few that I like and fit my style (key words). So at the end of the day, you gotta "Do You". And if others opinions matter that much to you... Well that's a whole other concern.
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      04-10-2015, 10:43 AM   #574
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so here is a wrap up on this thread so far from what I've read:

"if you can't afford it, don't buy it" or "don't buy a fake watch"
= does not buy fakes

"nothing wrong with a fake" or "to each his own, I wouldnt buy a real watch, too expensive"
- buys fakes




ha, jk. It wasn't about if you can afford it or not, its was about whether or not it matters. I don't think there is alot of humility on a BMW forum


and yes, to me it matters if someone represents a fake as real (like to sell). If they wear it, they already know its fake.
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      04-10-2015, 11:37 AM   #575
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      04-10-2015, 11:56 AM   #576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
If you say so, sure. The fakes I see in Luohu Commercial City don't cost anything like that and my whole team of expats has scores of them. Nobody's complained about any of the. That makes them high quality enough.
I really depends what your expectation is. The cheap ones might have the same design but do not have high beat Swiss movements. That's where the costs come in. Most are some cheap 21J movement inside. The genuine ETA movement itself is over $200, they aren't going to stick that in a watch and sell it at a loss. Even a copied ETA 2836-2 is over $100 for a new movement. Also, those costing close to $1000, those would contain a tourbillion movement.. the movement is why it costs so much. Even a Chinese tourbillion is hard to make due to the complexity. The customization to make it look like the the tourbillion from a certain brand makes it extra difficult. Also, replicas with working moon phases and other complications are hard to produce. Those fakes do exist as well but command a high premium for those interested.
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      04-10-2015, 12:09 PM   #577
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you can wear fake anything. but why would you do that to yourself?

only exception i can think of is, if that specific watch sells out/not available, and there is no way for you to get it unless you have to pay $1mm for that watch, you'd settle with a fake version of it.. just to have that style/design which is somewhat ok.. i guess..
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      04-10-2015, 01:21 PM   #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I really depends what your expectation is. The cheap ones might have the same design but do not have high beat Swiss movements. That's where the costs come in. Most are some cheap 21J movement inside. The genuine ETA movement itself is over $200, they aren't going to stick that in a watch and sell it at a loss. Even a copied ETA 2836-2 is over $100 for a new movement. Also, those costing close to $1000, those would contain a tourbillion movement.. the movement is why it costs so much. Even a Chinese tourbillion is hard to make due to the complexity. The customization to make it look like the the tourbillion from a certain brand makes it extra difficult. Also, replicas with working moon phases and other complications are hard to produce. Those fakes do exist as well but command a high premium for those interested.

Please provide one or more links or physical addresses to the sellers of high quality fakes that retail for $500 - $1K. I am very curious to see what they are offering.

All the best.
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      04-10-2015, 03:43 PM   #579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Please provide one or more links or physical addresses to the sellers of high quality fakes that retail for $500 - $1K. I am very curious to see what they are offering.

All the best.
Here's a rose gold 18k plated ROO:
http://www.pure-time.com/product/roy...racelet-a7750/

Here's a Vacheron Constantin Tourbillon:
http://www.pure-time.com/product/pat...leather-strap/

Here's a Zenith Tourbillon:
http://www.pure-time.com/product/el-...leather-strap/

Even a simpler Submariner with a 2836 decorated Rolex 3135 movement is approaching $500:
http://www.pure-time.com/product/sub...edition-a3135/

Review of a IWC tourbillon:


I would not suggest ordering replicas from random web sites. There are discussion forums for checking which are legit sellers and have quality watches.

The skeleton tourbillon and other open caseback watches are a lot of times not like the originals because anyone who knows the original knows that they don't look the same. But the fact is that watch complications and highly complex designs are available in replicas if you go high enough.

As I said before, these are beyond the street stall fakes. You'll rarely find these in a retail location unless you know someone on the inside... and the pricing and quality means they are above the random impulse buy.
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      04-10-2015, 08:32 PM   #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Here's a rose gold 18k plated ROO:
http://www.pure-time.com/product/roy...racelet-a7750/

Here's a Vacheron Constantin Tourbillon:
http://www.pure-time.com/product/pat...leather-strap/

Here's a Zenith Tourbillon:
http://www.pure-time.com/product/el-...leather-strap/

Even a simpler Submariner with a 2836 decorated Rolex 3135 movement is approaching $500:
http://www.pure-time.com/product/sub...edition-a3135/

[video deleted]

I would not suggest ordering replicas from random web sites. There are discussion forums for checking which are legit sellers and have quality watches.

The skeleton tourbillon and other open caseback watches are a lot of times not like the originals because anyone who knows the original knows that they don't look the same. But the fact is that watch complications and highly complex designs are available in replicas if you go high enough.

As I said before, these are beyond the street stall fakes. You'll rarely find these in a retail location unless you know someone on the inside... and the pricing and quality means they are above the random impulse buy.
I had a feeling that you and I were discussing the same goods, but that you found a website that sells them to U.S. consumers and I see them in the Luohu Commercial City (LCC). Based on the links you provided, that's exactly what's going on.

Not one of the watches you linked to at PureTime has a Swiss ETA or Swiss anything else inside. They have either Seagull, as I mentioned, or a Chinese ETA clone inside. That is exactly what you'll get when you go to the LCC and buy a fake XYZ watch and that's exactly what I was talking about in the post I made above where I mentioned the LCC and included a few pics of the shopping tower and the catalog pages from which one picks a watch.

All that's different is that if one is in Shenzhen or Dalian (perhaps other cities as well, I haven't looked for them in other cities), the booth vendors selling them ask for ~500RMB and one has to haggle them down to about 250RMB. The one's at PureTime are priced to reflect the "middlemen" -- however many there are -- involved in getting the watch from the factory just outside central Shenzhen in Guangzhou to the consumer in United States. Those middlemen want Western sized profits and so the watch price inflates from something less than 250RMB to ~2500RMB+ ($40 --> $400+).

You pictured a few highly complicated models. They will cost more, but why anyone would buy a highly complex watch from a maker who makes no pretense about not employing the most sophisticated design, build and finishing techniques is beyond me. The "smart" buy in fakes is uncomplicated watches, not tourbillons, chronographs, perp cals, and so on.

You know the saying, "Don't go to a sushi bar and order the steak." In other words, if you are going to knowingly buy a fake, but one that corresponds to what the maker can be expected to do a good job with. With fake watches, that means things like any fake Rolex except the Daytona, Explorer II or Yachtmaster II, or any other faked, uncomplicated watch.

Going with even a fake chronograph is a mistake. The pushers will feel notchy and be hard to push. The stopwatch function will lose a second or two on start and stop. The minute hand for the stopwatch functions will be continuous rather than incremental. There's no telling how long the stopwatch functions will even function at the lame level to which they are capable, but hopefully, the chrono functionality will have been achieved via a bolt on module rather than via an integrated design. In the former approach, a new module can be bolted on to repair the watch. In the latter scenario, one may as well find some paper that needs holding in place.

Note:
The varying quality of fakes one can buy and whether one opts to buy a fake or not are separate topics. As the title of this thread suggests, I don't care if one buys a fake watch or not. If one is nutty enough to buy a low performing fake complicated watch, I also don't care.

All the best.

P.S.
Before you mention that the $50 or less prices to which I referred are for buying in the PRC, check the price of a roundtrip plane ticket to the PRC. One can get a flight for ~$850 to Hong Kong (1 hour drive across the bay to Shenzhen). First rate dining will run about $30/day (in total for three meals), and safe, clean and modern lodging in the heart of the city, and on the order of a Fairfield Inn or Motel 6, will run ~$8-$15/night.

Actually, one of the best "basic" meals going in the PRC is the grilled chicken and fresh veggies (corn, green beans and enoki mushrooms) cooked on a hibachi set up on the sidewalk outside of a hotel. Grab a bowl of fresh, handmade pasta (or pasta soup) for $1 and toss the grilled veggies in with it. The whole thing will run you about $6 and feed two with food left over. What you'll get will be either legs and thighs on the bone or this.



And since you'll be in the PRC, it's be super fresh, as in they killed the bird about an hour before you showed up. (Rabbit and duck are also popular...they taste good, don't take up a lot of space, and they are easy to keep until they need to be killed.
- T
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      04-11-2015, 03:15 AM   #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I would not suggest ordering replicas from random web sites. There are discussion forums for checking which are legit sellers and have quality watches.
Indeed...I had a problem with the first IWC 3717 I received so I sent it back to the seller in China and received a replacement. Approved sellers on specialist replica websites sell better quality reps and give after sales service albeit at a price. I've had mine 2.5 years, it is unmarked and still keeps near perfect time.
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      04-11-2015, 04:06 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I had a feeling that you and I were discussing the same goods, but that you found a website that sells them to U.S. consumers and I see them in the Luohu Commercial City (LCC). Based on the links you provided, that's exactly what's going on.

Not one of the watches you linked to at PureTime has a Swiss ETA or Swiss anything else inside. They have either Seagull, as I mentioned, or a Chinese ETA clone inside. That is exactly what you'll get when you go to the LCC and buy a fake XYZ watch and that's exactly what I was talking about in the post I made above where I mentioned the LCC and included a few pics of the shopping tower and the catalog pages from which one picks a watch.

All that's different is that if one is in Shenzhen or Dalian (perhaps other cities as well, I haven't looked for them in other cities), the booth vendors selling them ask for ~500RMB and one has to haggle them down to about 250RMB. The one's at PureTime are priced to reflect the "middlemen" -- however many there are -- involved in getting the watch from the factory just outside central Shenzhen in Guangzhou to the consumer in United States. Those middlemen want Western sized profits and so the watch price inflates from something less than 250RMB to ~2500RMB+ ($40 --> $400+).

You pictured a few highly complicated models. They will cost more, but why anyone would buy a highly complex watch from a maker who makes no pretense about not employing the most sophisticated design, build and finishing techniques is beyond me. The "smart" buy in fakes is uncomplicated watches, not tourbillons, chronographs, perp cals, and so on.

You know the saying, "Don't go to a sushi bar and order the steak." In other words, if you are going to knowingly buy a fake, but one that corresponds to what the maker can be expected to do a good job with. With fake watches, that means things like any fake Rolex except the Daytona, Explorer II or Yachtmaster II, or any other faked, uncomplicated watch.

Going with even a fake chronograph is a mistake. The pushers will feel notchy and be hard to push. The stopwatch function will lose a second or two on start and stop. The minute hand for the stopwatch functions will be continuous rather than incremental. There's no telling how long the stopwatch functions will even function at the lame level to which they are capable, but hopefully, the chrono functionality will have been achieved via a bolt on module rather than via an integrated design. In the former approach, a new module can be bolted on to repair the watch. In the latter scenario, one may as well find some paper that needs holding in place.

Note:
The varying quality of fakes one can buy and whether one opts to buy a fake or not are separate topics. As the title of this thread suggests, I don't care if one buys a fake watch or not. If one is nutty enough to buy a low performing fake complicated watch, I also don't care.
I know you keep mentioning the one mall. The thing is, these watches are sold about everywhere in China, especially in Guangzhou where they are made. You just need to know the right places to go.

I am a native Mandarin speaker and have been to some watch markets. The stuff you mention at the stalls are not the best they have. If you know the right people, they'll take you to a different location for the good stuff or send a runner to pick up a watch if they trust you. The things they sell in their store are usually the low quality items that have high margin. Otherwise they are older versions they are clearing out for the newer versions of the same watches. Of course everything is "high quality" if you ask. You need to know the various replica factories and the models they've produced to know which manufacturer made the watch and which version or revision of that model they are carrying.

I had a replica from Guangzhou a friend (who grew up in Guangzhou) bought for me when he went to visit his family... it was $100 USD and it was complete junk. A low beat movement and the details was completely inaccurate. Not to mention the power reserve was a joke and it didn't last overnight. Never let a friend who doesn't know watches buy a watch for you! You will not find a quality replica for $100. You are looking at a cheaper movement and the details will not be as accurate.

As for the Swiss ETA movement, I did not link to the specific watches but they can be had with a real Swiss ETA movement for a few more dollars. i.e. the web site listing will show Swiss ETA movement + $100. There are a lot of dealers out there and offer a selection of ETA 2836-2, Sellita SW220 and other movements. It just changes the pricing of the watches.

I completely agree with you on buying a complicated replica. I would not buy one for the pure fact that when it needed servicing or stops, where do you take that? An ETA movement or the copies of them can be serviced at any watchsmith.

I find a few fakes are fun along with the real watches I do own. You can try things out that you wouldn't otherwise buy. I've purchased a real watch that I had a replica for just because I liked that particular watch. It was something I never thought I'd like until I wore it for a few months.
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      04-11-2015, 01:38 PM   #583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I know you keep mentioning the one mall. The thing is, these watches are sold about everywhere in China, especially in Guangzhou where they are made. You just need to know the right places to go.

I am a native Mandarin speaker and have been to some watch markets. The stuff you mention at the stalls are not the best they have. If you know the right people, they'll take you to a different location for the good stuff or send a runner to pick up a watch if they trust you. The things they sell in their store are usually the low quality items that have high margin. Otherwise they are older versions they are clearing out for the newer versions of the same watches. Of course everything is "high quality" if you ask. You need to know the various replica factories and the models they've produced to know which manufacturer made the watch and which version or revision of that model they are carrying.

I had a replica from Guangzhou a friend (who grew up in Guangzhou) bought for me when he went to visit his family... it was $100 USD and it was complete junk. A low beat movement and the details was completely inaccurate. Not to mention the power reserve was a joke and it didn't last overnight. Never let a friend who doesn't know watches buy a watch for you! You will not find a quality replica for $100. You are looking at a cheaper movement and the details will not be as accurate.

As for the Swiss ETA movement, I did not link to the specific watches but they can be had with a real Swiss ETA movement for a few more dollars. i.e. the web site listing will show Swiss ETA movement + $100. There are a lot of dealers out there and offer a selection of ETA 2836-2, Sellita SW220 and other movements. It just changes the pricing of the watches.

I completely agree with you on buying a complicated replica. I would not buy one for the pure fact that when it needed servicing or stops, where do you take that? An ETA movement or the copies of them can be serviced at any watchsmith.

I find a few fakes are fun along with the real watches I do own. You can try things out that you wouldn't otherwise buy. I've purchased a real watch that I had a replica for just because I liked that particular watch. It was something I never thought I'd like until I wore it for a few months.
Red:
I can only say that the LCC is the only place I've been that's resulted in my encountering good quality unauthentically branded watches. I'm sure there are other places one can go, even in Shenzhen, to obtain the same items.

I didn't bother going into the details of the process the vendor went through with my colleagues who were buying them. Those details didn't seem relevant to the point of whether good/high quality fakes exist and how much they cost.

Blue:
Well, yes. That's about what any maker/seller of any product anywhere is going to say. Perspective is always what allows them to say so. For what it is, everything is high quality.

For what it is, a Hamilton is a high quality watch. Similarly, for what it is, a fake "whatever" is a high quality watch. That doesn't make either one of them the highest quality -- in terms of design, build and finishing -- that one can buy. How much better might a Hamilton be than is a similar, say, fake Rolex? Well, that depends. If one's wear and timekeeping habits/needs are like mine, probably not much at all. If, instead, one is be rough with a watch as might an underwater spelunker, it's possible neither is "good enough."

What I'm saying is that although the attributes that constitute the highest quality are fairly well defined, but below having every single detail -- inside and out -- be executed to the highest standard, producers make judgement calls and trade-offs. What is the minimum mix of "Nth-degree" traits and shortcuts a maker can take and still produce a high quality watch? I don't know. I do know that the range of possibilities is huge.

Take for example a highly refined watch, a PP, a Voutilainen, a Badollet, or whatever. Makers like that will so finely hone the contact points in the movement so that friction -- a watch movement's biggest "enemy" -- is at the utmost minimum and the timekeeping of their pieces is as good as it gets with mechanical watches. That's all well and good, but machines like that take regular and consistent maintenance to keep running at their best. A less highly refined Rolex 3135 or standard grade ETA (or ETA clone) movement will generally run just fine for decades even if one doesn't service it regularly and consistently.

So that's why what is "high quality" depends. If one doesn't want to every couple years send a watch off for an overhaul/tune-up to keep it running well, the Rolex or basic ETA-inside or even a quartz powered watch is what one will see as being a higher quality movement for one's purposes.

Green:
In my experience, all one needs to know is what a well made watch looks, sounds and feels like. Having a loupe, one can look at the finishing of the contact edges of the visible cogs, wheels and pivot points to gauge how well made the movement is.
I cited those two articles because, unlike you, my Mandarin isn't good enough to discuss watches, particularly fake ones, in that language. I need to be able to look at it, hold it, if possible open it and figure out for myself whether what I'm looking at is any good or pure junk. If the watch were authentic, I wouldn't need to do that because I'd know what the specs are and what role they play in making the watch a higher or lower quality piece. Or, I could rely on the maker's reputation and not worry too much about the details if that be appropriate to why I'm buying the watch.


For example, with authentic pieces, if I just happen to see a stainless steel watch I think looks cool and the name on the dial is, say, Hamilton, I don't really need to wonder how high quality the watch is. I just like the look and I know Hamilton make a decent enough watch that it's not going to let me down, so I'll buy it. If instead I'm looking for a watch that has lots of ultra-smooth, inside edge beveling and other decorative effects, I'm not going to look at a Hamilton or a fake.



Orange:
I'm not sure what you mean by the "details were completely inaccurate." If you are referring to the accuracy with which a fake maker mimics the appearance of the corresponding authentic watch, okay. I don't see that as a good reason for buying a fake. IMO, a good reason for buying a fake is because it performs -- mechanically and physically -- in accordance with one's expectations.

I'm not naive enough to fail to realize that comparisons -- mechanical and physical -- between/with the fake and the genuine article aren't inevitable. Indeed, doing so is entertaining and informative, but be that as it may, it's but an academic pursuit. A fake watch, and whether one wants to buy one, depends on the merit of the watch itself, not its fake branding.

Regardless of what other folks think or do, my indifference toward fake watches and whether one wears one issues from the fact that I don't consider, say, a fake Rolex to be a substitute for an authentic Rolex. I consider a fake Rolex to be a substitute (economic principle) for a variety of watches that are (1) priced lower than Rolexes, and therefore (2) are not Rolexes. The idea that I'd buy a fake watch as a way to get the substance of the genuine article is preposterous; that's just not going to happen, no matter how good the fake is.

As for what I can or can't get for $100, well, I'm in a better position to attest to that than you. Suffice to say that ETA's patents on its basic movements have long since expired, which is why Selitta, Soporod and various Chinese makers can clone them. At retail, Chinese made ETA-clones are inexpensive; at wholesale, in the PRC, they are very inexpensive, especially the standard grade clones. (http://www.perrinwatchparts.com/cat_...movements.aspx)




Purple:
Where? Search here and you'll be able to find out where: https://members.awci.com/AWCIWEB/AWC...berSearch.aspx . If push comes to shove, you can send it to Roland at RGM; he restores vintage pieces made by long defunct makers. There's no question he can do the job if one is willing to pay him to do so.

A duly certified can service any watch. If there's going to be an "issue" it'll have to do with parts availability. Now if push comes to shove, the watchmaker can fabricate the needed part from scratch; that's part of their training. For the consumer, it's not actually a question of whether one can get it serviced, but rather how much one wants to pay to have it serviced/repaired. I personally wouldn't spend a large sum to have a watchmaker fabricate a part for a fake watch, but somebody else might. I didn't buy a Pet Rock or Chia Pet either, but millions of people did.

All the best.
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      04-12-2015, 02:38 AM   #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post

Green:
In my experience, all one needs to know is what a well made watch looks, sounds and feels like. Having a loupe, one can look at the finishing of the contact edges of the visible cogs, wheels and pivot points to gauge how well made the movement is.
I cited those two articles because, unlike you, my Mandarin isn't good enough to discuss watches, particularly fake ones, in that language. I need to be able to look at it, hold it, if possible open it and figure out for myself whether what I'm looking at is any good or pure junk. If the watch were authentic, I wouldn't need to do that because I'd know what the specs are and what role they play in making the watch a higher or lower quality piece. Or, I could rely on the maker's reputation and not worry too much about the details if that be appropriate to why I'm buying the watch.


For example, with authentic pieces, if I just happen to see a stainless steel watch I think looks cool and the name on the dial is, say, Hamilton, I don't really need to wonder how high quality the watch is. I just like the look and I know Hamilton make a decent enough watch that it's not going to let me down, so I'll buy it. If instead I'm looking for a watch that has lots of ultra-smooth, inside edge beveling and other decorative effects, I'm not going to look at a Hamilton or a fake.



Orange:
I'm not sure what you mean by the "details were completely inaccurate." If you are referring to the accuracy with which a fake maker mimics the appearance of the corresponding authentic watch, okay. I don't see that as a good reason for buying a fake. IMO, a good reason for buying a fake is because it performs -- mechanically and physically -- in accordance with one's expectations.

I'm not naive enough to fail to realize that comparisons -- mechanical and physical -- between/with the fake and the genuine article aren't inevitable. Indeed, doing so is entertaining and informative, but be that as it may, it's but an academic pursuit. A fake watch, and whether one wants to buy one, depends on the merit of the watch itself, not its fake branding.

Regardless of what other folks think or do, my indifference toward fake watches and whether one wears one issues from the fact that I don't consider, say, a fake Rolex to be a substitute for an authentic Rolex. I consider a fake Rolex to be a substitute (economic principle) for a variety of watches that are (1) priced lower than Rolexes, and therefore (2) are not Rolexes. The idea that I'd buy a fake watch as a way to get the substance of the genuine article is preposterous; that's just not going to happen, no matter how good the fake is.

As for what I can or can't get for $100, well, I'm in a better position to attest to that than you. Suffice to say that ETA's patents on its basic movements have long since expired, which is why Selitta, Soporod and various Chinese makers can clone them. At retail, Chinese made ETA-clones are inexpensive; at wholesale, in the PRC, they are very inexpensive, especially the standard grade clones. (http://www.perrinwatchparts.com/cat_...movements.aspx)




Purple:
Where? Search here and you'll be able to find out where: https://members.awci.com/AWCIWEB/AWC...berSearch.aspx . If push comes to shove, you can send it to Roland at RGM; he restores vintage pieces made by long defunct makers. There's no question he can do the job if one is willing to pay him to do so.

A duly certified can service any watch. If there's going to be an "issue" it'll have to do with parts availability. Now if push comes to shove, the watchmaker can fabricate the needed part from scratch; that's part of their training. For the consumer, it's not actually a question of whether one can get it serviced, but rather how much one wants to pay to have it serviced/repaired. I personally wouldn't spend a large sum to have a watchmaker fabricate a part for a fake watch, but somebody else might. I didn't buy a Pet Rock or Chia Pet either, but millions of people did.

All the best.
I don't think it's all the same. Your standard for a fake watch is different than what I'd look for in a fake. The movement needs to be good, the look as close to authentic as possible. Why wear a watch that looks bad?

Of course it there is diminishing return after a certain price point in terms of quality but generally the more you pay, the better it'll be. They differentiate the products based on what the buyer is looking for. They can offer cheap $100 ones and higher end ones which look closer to genuine and offer better movements and/or complications.

As for the movement, on the list you linked, the Chinese 2824 movement cost $157 CAD. http://www.perrinwatchparts.com/prod...ment_2824.aspx While that isn't very expensive, it is above the cost of a $100 watch. You'll find 2824 and 2836-2 clones in most of the higher end fakes. These movements cost more. Yes, the cheaper ones will work as well but because they are low beat movements, they won't sweep as smooth as the high beat watches - details that matter if you care about it.

Anyway, we are going way off topic... Suffice it to say that you can get fake watches at many price points with varying levels of detail reproduction and lots of movement choices.
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      04-12-2015, 03:47 AM   #585
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Here is an 6 month investigative report that they did in China into the factories that make the fakes and the current state of some fakes.

Translated using google:
https://translate.google.com/transla...e%2F378-1.html

Factory assembly:



One of these is a fake with a copied Rolex 3135 movement.




One of these titanium Tudor Pelagos is a fake.


Again, one of these is a fake.



Panerai Bronzo fakes made from bronze


AP white ceramic material case copy

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      04-12-2015, 06:17 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I don't think it's all the same. Your standard for a fake watch is different than what I'd look for in a fake. The movement needs to be good, the look as close to authentic as possible. Why wear a watch that looks bad?

Of course it there is diminishing return after a certain price point in terms of quality but generally the more you pay, the better it'll be. They differentiate the products based on what the buyer is looking for. They can offer cheap $100 ones and higher end ones which look closer to genuine and offer better movements and/or complications.

As for the movement, on the list you linked, the Chinese 2824 movement cost $157 CAD. http://www.perrinwatchparts.com/prod...ment_2824.aspx While that isn't very expensive, it is above the cost of a $100 watch. You'll find 2824 and 2836-2 clones in most of the higher end fakes. These movements cost more. Yes, the cheaper ones will work as well but because they are low beat movements, they won't sweep as smooth as the high beat watches - details that matter if you care about it.

Anyway, we are going way off topic... Suffice it to say that you can get fake watches at many price points with varying levels of detail reproduction and lots of movement choices.
Red:
Of that I have no doubt. I don't care how well it approximates the real thing. Moreover, I don't actually look for fakes, but I have bought plenty of them to use as "door prizes" at firm team building and networking events. I haven't heard folks complain; I have heard folks say they are surprised at how well they perform and that they look surprisingly similar to the authentic article. The folks who "win" one find them to be amusing novelties.

Blue:
Yes we are. Suffice to say neither you nor I have an issue with other folks wearing fake watches. I suspect too that neither of us ascribes to the logical fallacy (or it's variants) "fake watch, fake person." I certainly don't.

All the best.
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      04-13-2015, 03:11 PM   #587
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I meant no offense, but we all know American love to finance everything! It's all about the monthlies baby!
I was partially kidding, because you are 100% right lol.
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      04-13-2015, 04:04 PM   #588
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I'm of the opinion that if I can't pay cash for it, I can't afford it.

I wouldn't allow myself to wear a copy simply due to the fact that I believe if I/someone truly wants something - I/they will save dollars and cents to get it. It doesn't matter if it's in 2 or 10 years time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by P1et View Post
I meant no offense, but we all know American love to finance everything! It's all about the monthlies baby!
Everyone makes discretionary spending choices as befits their own tastes and circumstances. Americans are not by a long shot the only nationality of humans who use credit to pay for things.
It's also worth noting that the extent to which consumers in various countries often enough has to do with factors other than whether one can afford to pay cash or not.

I think generalizing about how Americans feel toward credit is a fool's proposition. Citing specific, observable fact-patterns or (reasonably) credible statistics about how Americans use credit is a considerably sounder rhetorical approach to making one's point.

Particularly in the realm of short term investing, credit provides one with the leverage needed to boost the rate of return realized on one's actual cash invested, thereby making one's money grow faster. Affording (or not) it, or loving or hating credit, has nothing to do with whether one buys on margin.

If there's anything Americans like, it's the freedom and flexibility to choose the best means (for them as individuals) of financing their purchases.

All the best.
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      04-15-2015, 06:21 AM   #589
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It matters so long as its my wrist we are talking about.
I really do not like anything fake, not for a second and i happen to be a watch person so a fake watch just won't cut it.
I would rather wear a cheap original watch than an expensive or even cheap fake.
Now some folks can't tell an original from a fake and they may even pay top dollar for it, that's their own problem not mine.
Some might knowingly purchase a fake for whatever reason they have, that also is their own business, I couldn't be bothered about that.

Personally, i detest a fake because i would not feel comfortable in or with anything fake, now if someone stares at me or even compliments me I would be under the impression that Im being indirectly told that they know its fake.
That's just me so basically a cheap original is better than a fake any day.

A fake is a fake.
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      04-15-2015, 09:05 AM   #590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Everyone makes discretionary spending choices as befits their own tastes and circumstances. Americans are not by a long shot the only nationality of humans who use credit to pay for things.
It's also worth noting that the extent to which consumers in various countries often enough has to do with factors other than whether one can afford to pay cash or not.

I think generalizing about how Americans feel toward credit is a fool's proposition. Citing specific, observable fact-patterns or (reasonably) credible statistics about how Americans use credit is a considerably sounder rhetorical approach to making one's point.

Particularly in the realm of short term investing, credit provides one with the leverage needed to boost the rate of return realized on one's actual cash invested, thereby making one's money grow faster. Affording (or not) it, or loving or hating credit, has nothing to do with whether one buys on margin.

If there's anything Americans like, it's the freedom and flexibility to choose the best means (for them as individuals) of financing their purchases.

All the best.
I'll just leave this here...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/51-perce...rd-debt-study/
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      04-15-2015, 12:09 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by P1et View Post
??? I don't know what your point is...the article you cited discusses the same behavior patterns that the articles I cited do. I don't have an issue with stating that many, or half, or some other quantity, of Americans use credit as a way to finance their purchases.

There are multiple behaviors I exhibit that have nothing to do with loving anything. For example, I regularly review budget to actual financial performance reports. There's not one thing about doing so that I love; I don't even like doing it. I used credit to buy a boat and though I would have rather paid cash for it, that I took a loan to do so wasn't a reflection of my inability to afford the boat; I paid off the loan and I still have the boat.

Being able to afford something and having cash to pay for it at the time of the purchase are not the same things. I rarely have any cash in my pocket, so if I didn't have a debit card, I'd have to pay with a credit card. Some things I purchase almost weekly -- hotel rooms and rental cars, for example, can't (depending on the company) be purchased using a debit card. Also, in general, credit card companies disallow the use of their cards to buy marijuana. (That was so in 2014; maybe things have changed since then?)

In contrast, I do love my debit card (i.e., the concept of debit transactions as compared with the concept of loan/credit transactions) because it means I really don't have to carry cash very often at all.

All the best.
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      04-15-2015, 02:43 PM   #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
??? I don't know what your point is...the article you cited discusses the same behavior patterns that the articles I cited do. I don't have an issue with stating that many, or half, or some other quantity, of Americans use credit as a way to finance their purchases.

There are multiple behaviors I exhibit that have nothing to do with loving anything. For example, I regularly review budget to actual financial performance reports. There's not one thing about doing so that I love; I don't even like doing it. I used credit to buy a boat and though I would have rather paid cash for it, that I took a loan to do so wasn't a reflection of my inability to afford the boat; I paid off the loan and I still have the boat.

Being able to afford something and having cash to pay for it at the time of the purchase are not the same things. I rarely have any cash in my pocket, so if I didn't have a debit card, I'd have to pay with a credit card. Some things I purchase almost weekly -- hotel rooms and rental cars, for example, can't (depending on the company) be purchased using a debit card. Also, in general, credit card companies disallow the use of their cards to buy marijuana. (That was so in 2014; maybe things have changed since then?)

In contrast, I do love my debit card (i.e., the concept of debit transactions as compared with the concept of loan/credit transactions) because it means I really don't have to carry cash very often at all.

All the best.
My points is that many people use credit for the wrong reason. I'd call it abusing your credit, really. See how many are in debt? How many of the things they put on their credit card were not necessary? How many of them buy luxury goods and are unable to pay for it in full at the end of the month?

So if you cannot afford it, then don't buy it.
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      04-15-2015, 07:29 PM   #593
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Originally Posted by P1et View Post
My points is that many people use credit for the wrong reason. I'd call it abusing your credit, really. See how many are in debt? How many of the things they put on their credit card were not necessary? How many of them buy luxury goods and are unable to pay for it in full at the end of the month?

So if you cannot afford it, then don't buy it.
I really don't know the answer to your last two questions.

Would it make any difference if the things they bought were luxury goods or not if the borrower still couldn't pay the bill in accordance with the lender's terms to which the debtor agreed?

Red:
Well, really that's a charge card, not a credit card. I'm well aware that using a credit card and paying it off as though it were a charge card is the least costly way to use credit cards, but I don't think that not monthly paying off whatever the outstanding balance is an indicator of one's not being able to afford whatever one bought using the credit card. As long as a person pays their bills on time, they can afford whatever it is they purchased.

That buyers cannot afford to purchase the item(s) outright without using credit is a different matter. But then part of the whole point of credit is to provide a means for individuals, businesses and governments to have a more affordable (based on the borrower's self defined set of priorities and uses of their cash) way to obtain the goods and services they desire.

All the best.
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      05-04-2015, 07:40 PM   #594
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for my comment as it will probably beat a dead horse.

If you like the design, buy a similar watch or item that's in your price range.

The reason someone buys something that is fake with the luxury label is to try and flaunt like they have accumulated enough money to purchase that item.

Want a rolex, save for X months or years and buy a used one for a fraction of the price. Then, you will feel better as it was something you worked for.

Like these people on Instagram posting their Jordan collections, thousand dollar bar tabs, $50,000 C class MBZ's, Visa Black cards, and such only to live in a $300k house. (Out of staters please bear with me on this house value reference, haha)

(MBZ visa black card joke is from here
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