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      12-18-2019, 11:57 AM   #881
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
What the internet hypes and what the real world hypes are two totally different things.

If internet hype were true, Hillary Clinton would currently be our president.
That's a silly comparison; BMW sale numbers are not determined by the archaic and unbalanced Electoral College, it's majority rules..

It's also naive to believe that BMW can't sell 500 of the hottest car they've produced in a awhile.

They'll all be accounted for before they even hit the showrooms. Just watch..
Hey, hey, hey! The EC was put in place for a valid reason. It's not really archaic and unbalanced at all.
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      12-18-2019, 12:05 PM   #882
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Originally Posted by 10" View Post
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Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Just in terms of exclusivity, aren't there less M2CS's being imported to the US than 1M's? Rarity plays a huge factor.
Rarity only contributes partially.
Pricing and desirability is a big component.
Most people forget the 1M was priced at $47k. The most affordable M car ever. All cars manual gearbox. 3 colours. This was a car that shook up the scene. We hadn't seen anything like it from BMW since the 2002 Turbo in the 1970s. The 1M was also a ridiculously simple car. Basic and minimally decorated with function over form. Dealers had a list a mile long waiting for a 1M and they were quickly gone. I bought mine used 2 years later for above MSRP as did many others...
Now the M2 CS is priced way higher and comes at the tail end of a series of M2s which were already good. The car is not a surprise in any way most people have known it was coming. It's not a car that will "shock" people the way the 1M did.
Will it become a future classic? Possible..time will tell. But it's not going to do it the way the 1M did it. It will have to find its own way and its own method to become a classic.
Below a couple of considerations about the 1M:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
IMHO it's puzzling why many people still try explaining the 1M success (even nowadays) as a result of "primarily low production" ? As former 1M owner, in my view the main reason of its success was plain and simple: it was/is excellent value for money.

Compare 1M resale prices nowadays with those of rivals back then (2011 Cayman S and 2011 Audi TT RS Coupé). AFAIK I don't recall people still talking about those competing cars - they're mostly kinda 'forgotten' by later iterations. Try to find 2019 reviews saying something like "this new car reminds us of the infamous 2011 Cayman S / 2011 Audi TT RS Coupé".

Fun trivia: back then (2011) journalists asked Porsche to get a Cayman S for 1M comparison tests (comparable price range), and each time Porsche sent over a Cayman R (more powerful and different price range). I recall a journalist saying in a car magazine review that Porsche had told them that a Cayman S was not immediately available, unlike a Cayman R...

6309 1M cars were made (which ain't particularly 'rare') and 740 got stateside. It's fun to drive (kinda handful/rascal), looks more boisterous than lots of BMW cars back then (fenders on steroids - no boredom), manual only and very limited choice of customization (rather 'take it or leave it'), Valencia Orange was a quirky body color, and - last but not least - the car was affordable for lots of enthusiasts. As explained here: "It speaks to our inner child. [...] Owning a 1M is like owning your favorite Matchbox car. You feel like a kid again. You feel like anything is possible. There are no shortage of YouTube video reviews on the car, but if you watch them you start to see that there is one common element in all of them. The reviewers are giggling like little kids. I have never seen a car that evokes such a universal sense of childlike whimsy and fun." And there is some truth in it: a subtle reminder to childhood days.

Price of the M2 CS: almost double, positioned in a price range of a different class, swimming with bigger fish in the automotive pond. Different story.

Below: comparison published by BMW UK around 2010/2011:


Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
as a 1M owner, i appreciate the N55 M2 the most out of the entire M2 range. Don't care for the M2C but i think the N55 M2 captures and continues the spirit of the 1M best. Simple, affordable, enjoyable. Power is not what these cars need all they need is to be driven and driven hard!
I think anyone into the 'true' spirit of M cars will appreciate 'smaller' M cars the most like the E30 M3, E36 M3, Z3M, Z4M, 1M, and M2.
These days you have "enthusiasts" who buy M5s with over 500hp and a tragic torque converted automatic gearbox with AWD and electronic blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah no thanks. If those people can't appreciate a small M coupe----then be GLAD!!!
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Though mine is gone (to a good new home), I'll keep respecting it for all the right reasons.
----------------------------------------------------
Top 10 BMWs of the past 100 years
March 8th, 2016
7. BMW 1 Series M – When BMW developed the 1 Series M, many weren’t sure of how it would turn out. Made from what seemed like leftovers, the 1M was an amalgamation of the 1 Series chassis and some M Division parts from a couple of different M cars. So it didn’t seem like a proper M car to many fans. However, what we got was simply incredible. It took all preconceived notions of it being a Frankenstein car and through them out the window. The BMW 1M is still one of the best driving cars of BMW’s modern era. It's the car that other small M cars will look up to for the rest of the brand’s history. The little underdog BMW 1M went from a Frankenstein car to one of the most revered BMW’s in the last 20 years.
(source: here)
----------------------------------------------------
BMW 1 Series M Coupe now worth more than other models that were nearly twice as expensive new

BMW's rare, high-performance 1M Coupe is actually worth more now than it was when new, an unprecedented feat.
February 25, 2016
BMW's least expensive M-badged offering from 2011 has reached a small but significant milestone: It's now worth more than all of the other far costlier like-badged models it once shared showrooms with. [...]
Cars that manage to retain their original sales values -- or exceed them -- are extremely unusual. On average, after five years, a typical automobile is worth roughly 40 percent of what it cost when new. Some in-demand new cars and trucks can command a premium for a short period of time after launch, but such instances are rare, and generally very short lived. On occasion, six- and seven-figure exotics from companies like Ferrari and Lamborghini manage this feat, but at the BMW's comparatively terrestrial price point, it's all but unprecedented.
(source: here)
----------------------------------------------------
Which older BMW M Cars will be good investments?
January 25th, 2016
There are some ways to determine what is going to be a future classic, a car that will be worth considerably more in the future than what someone pays for it now. Things like age, rarity, importance and popularity all play a factor in what might make a car increase in value. And being that we’re BMW fans here, let’s make a look at some BMW M cars that might be good investments in the future. [...]
The BMW 1 Series M is a car we’ve talked about being a good investment quite a bit. It was a strange car for BMW, but in a very good way. It was made from a sort of collection of BMW M parts and was sold in very limited numbers. It also gained a cult following for its old-school BMW performance that brought back memories of cars like the BMW 2002 tii and the E30 M3. The 1M is one of the best driving BMWs of the 21st century and has already gone up in value since when it was new. They’re expensive to buy right now because of that, but its value should only continue to rise so getting one now might not be a bad idea.
(source: here)
----------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Sometimes it feels like 8-yr old kids discussing their bicycle colors at the playground.

Maybe only the M3 and M4 survive in the subjective "real M car" eco-system approach of some. For some, even only the E30 M3 is worthy getting the ///M badge. As someone said: "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." Otherwise said, each individual should be allowed to pursue his/her strengths. In addition, a weakness in some area should not induce feelings of debilitating inferiority. Check the value you got for the money paid, what purpose you mainly use your car for (daily driver? track? mountains? mix?) and how much fun it provides when you do those things.

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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
The badge is like a birth certificate.

Regardless of the badge, it's all about the DNA and legitimate expectations about the bloodline.

E30 M3 SPORT EVO: 175kW - 238hp - 0-100km/h: 6.5s
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      12-18-2019, 12:06 PM   #883
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Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
Ricing out a M2C, making it heavier, and installing a worse suspension won't make it anything but fail status.

This is the first CS to be a downgrade from the C.
Sorry but you are a fool if you really believe that statement.

I get it, you have a Comp etc. But to say that like the CS is not going to outperform it in every single category is crazy talk. (Downgrade) The engineers at M made the necessary tweaks etc to make this even faster and more gripping on the road and tack. Once the figures come out, you will see what no sense comment you made.

I have an OG M2 and I love it. I know the Comp out performs mines. But don't be sour and say the CS is "riced out" etc. The fact that this is the first CS with a manual is also a beautiful thing. If it is not in your budget, thats ok. No need to hate on the better M2 either.
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      12-18-2019, 12:07 PM   #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
What the internet hypes and what the real world hypes are two totally different things.

If internet hype were true, Hillary Clinton would currently be our president.
That's a silly comparison; BMW sale numbers are not determined by the archaic and unbalanced Electoral College, it's majority rules..

It's also naive to believe that BMW can't sell 500 of the hottest car they've produced in a awhile.

They'll all be accounted for before they even hit the showrooms. Just watch..
Hey, hey, hey! The EC was put in place for a valid reason. It's not really archaic and unbalanced at all.
I guess that's a matter of opinion but if you look at the US early history with it's school segregation and "White or Colored" separate water fountains, it's pretty obviously where the The Founders head was at, when it was written as such.. I'm just surprise it survived the test of time.

But that's a whole other forum.. Back to subject at hand; M2 CS is so gosh-darn expensive for mere mortals.
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      12-18-2019, 12:11 PM   #885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
That's a silly comparison; BMW sale numbers are not determined by the archaic and unbalanced Electoral College, it's majority rules..

It's also naive to believe that BMW can't sell 500 of the hottest car they've produced in a awhile.

They'll all be accounted for before they even hit the showrooms. Just watch..
YEA! Don't feed this troll. He is clearly hating on the better M2. Is it pricey? ABSOLUTELY! is it for everyone? NO! Will it outperform the previous M2's? YES!

I'm still on the fence as price is indeed a factor. Had my deposit down a year ago. We shall see.
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      12-18-2019, 12:11 PM   #886
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Below a couple of considerations about the 1M:
As always; you've stated things very nicely sir!!
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      12-18-2019, 12:19 PM   #887
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Originally Posted by ///M2NYC15 View Post
Sorry but you are a fool if you really believe that statement.

I get it, you have a Comp etc. But to say that like the CS is not going to outperform it in every single category is crazy talk. (Downgrade) The engineers at M made the necessary tweaks etc to make this even faster and more gripping on the road and tack. Once the figures come out, you will see what no sense comment you made.

I have an OG M2 and I love it. I know the Comp out performs mines. But don't be sour and say the CS is "riced out" etc. The fact that this is the first CS with a manual is also a beautiful thing. If it is not in your budget, thats ok. No need to hate on the better M2 either.
I think outperforming it in every single category "might" be true for stock cars. I don't think the margin of performance difference is going to be much. As has been discussed many times here, a $550. flash tune and Cup2 tires on the M2C will probably eat the $85k CS for lunch. If a person wants the prestige and the CF bits then by all means get the CS. If we are talking about performance difference, there just isn't much there.
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      12-18-2019, 12:23 PM   #888
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I think outperforming it in every single category "might" be true for stock cars. I don't think the margin of performance difference is going to be much. As has been discussed many times here, a $550. flash tune and Cup2 tires on the M2C will probably eat the $85k CS for lunch. If a person wants the prestige and the CF bits then by all means get the CS. If we are talking about performance difference, there just isn't much there.
I am absolutely referring to stock for stock.

But the same could be done for the CS as well. It will still have the advantages.
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      12-18-2019, 12:23 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by ///M2NYC15 View Post
YEA! Don't feed this troll. He is clearly hating on the better M2. Is it pricey? ABSOLUTELY! is it for everyone? NO! Will it outperform the previous M2's? YES!
To avoid any misunderstanding, I trust that you're not referring to Poochie, passionate petrolhead.
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      12-18-2019, 12:25 PM   #890
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I am absolutely referring to stock for stock.

But the same could be done for the CS as well. It will still have the advantages.
What advantages? The only real advantage is the adaptive suspension and this is not a real advantage since coilovers would be better for Motorsport.
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      12-18-2019, 12:27 PM   #891
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To avoid any misunderstanding, I trust that you're not referring to Poochie, passionate petrolhead.
Not Poochie of course haha
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      12-18-2019, 12:31 PM   #892
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What advantages? The only real advantage is the adaptive suspension and this is not a real advantage since coilovers would be better for Motorsport.
It would be true for coilovers. However, you do have a lower center of gravity with the carbonfiber roof etc. Basically, to get the Comp to CS level, you definitely have to put in some dough. I think the CS package overall, its just the better car. they both have the S55 so both have the same engine tuning potential etc. I am simply referring to the overall package of the M2CS. All the work has been done from factory and you dont have to worry about anything else really.

in the nurburgring this car is going to be at least 10 seconds faster. Watch.
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      12-18-2019, 12:36 PM   #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M2NYC15 View Post
YEA! Don't feed this troll. He is clearly hating on the better M2. Is it pricey? ABSOLUTELY! is it for everyone? NO! Will it outperform the previous M2's? YES!
To avoid any misunderstanding, I trust that you're not referring to Poochie, passionate petrolhead.
Hey 🤨 I think was already implied in context.

I'm about spitballing the related M2 facts, never starting incendiary subjects.

If I veered off, I promise it was by accident.
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      12-18-2019, 12:37 PM   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
Let's go down the list since the people in the back can't hear:

The M2CS is heavier than the M2C. Downgrade.
The M2CS has adaptive suspension. Downgrade.
The M2CS has a ton of carbon fiber, still heavier than M2C. Rice.
The M2CS has carbon rotors. Downgrade, steel rotors stop better.
The M2CS has the same engine just different tune. An upgrade off the lot and the only factor making the M2CS faster off the showroom floor, but any C owner can flash their car to 500whp so...

So what makes the CS so much better? Because with what we know about it other than a hotter tune, it's worse.
Point 1 - I don't think point 1 is actually true.
Point 2 - claim that the adaptive suspension is a downgrade. I'm not sure that's really true. Perhaps you feel that an aftermarket setup is better? but, we're talking about stock.
Point 3, which repeats the incorrect assessment in point 1, is no longer relevant.
Point 4 - the carbon rotors are optional. And based on what I understand, the car is still lighter (than the M2C) when you option it with steel rotors.

So... when you consider all of that, your list is far less.... damning.
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      12-18-2019, 12:50 PM   #895
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I think people have different uses and expectations of cars. If you are a track/mountain road warrior and value function over form the CS doesn't bring much to the table. If you want a smooth ride over bumps, prestige and beautiful accessories straight from the factory then try for the CS and don't worry about what others think.
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      12-18-2019, 12:50 PM   #896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
Let's go down the list since the people in the back can't hear:

The M2CS is heavier than the M2C. Downgrade.
The M2CS has adaptive suspension. Downgrade.
The M2CS has a ton of carbon fiber, still heavier than M2C. Rice.
The M2CS has exactly the same brakes just carbon rotors. Downgrade, steel rotors stop better.
The M2CS has the same engine just different tune. An upgrade off the lot and the only factor making the M2CS faster off the showroom floor, but any C owner can flash their car to 500whp so...

So what makes the CS so much better? Because with what we know about it other than a hotter tune, it's worse.
Do you have an M2c, or does your dad have an M2c? This seems like school is out for Christmas break and playing on the internet.
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      12-18-2019, 12:51 PM   #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by alavigne View Post
Point 1 - I don't think point 1 is actually true.
Point 2 - claim that the adaptive suspension is a downgrade. I'm not sure that's really true. Perhaps you feel that an aftermarket setup is better? but, we're talking about stock.
Point 3, which repeats the incorrect assessment in point 1, is no longer relevant.
Point 4 - the carbon rotors are optional. And based on what I understand, the car is still lighter (than the M2C) when you option it with steel rotors.

So... when you consider all of that, your list is far less.... damning.
Point 1: Heavier cars are worse than lighter cars. That's true.

Point 2: Adaptive suspension is not for track use, it's for street only. Downgrade.

It's the adaptive suspension which makes the M2CS heavier than the M2C even with all the carbon fiber parts. As far as we know, you can't unoption the adaptive suspension.

Now, if you could buy an M2CS with standard struts and steel rotors? It would be an overall better car than a C, but if you can't remove the active suspension? It will always be an inferior car because to make it better than a standard C, you have to remove the only option which makes a CS special.
So you're saying BMW added Adaptive Suspension to their high-performing vehicle to "downgrade" it's performance.

Makes a lot sense..
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      12-18-2019, 01:01 PM   #898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
So you're saying BMW added Adaptive Suspension to their high-performing vehicle to "downgrade" it's performance.

Makes a lot sense..
Please list all BMW's made with active suspension that handle better than a $2500 set of M Performance coilovers that are on the M4 GTS.

I'll wait.
"Performance" is subjective but having dampers that can be electronically manipulated, based on the road surface, load and demand is always going to have an advantage over a set, static damper setup.

I would like to sit you down and bore you with all the pros of AS but based on your narrow-minded attitude, I could tell it would be a dead-end. So let just agree to disagree. No need to wait.
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      12-18-2019, 01:02 PM   #899
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As someone who just put the MP coil overs on their m2c, and has driven multiple thousands of miles in m3/4s including m4cs... the almost 3k it cost with install is a huge bargain, and a must have if you really care about your M2c... Makes the car feel 95% as precise as the Gt4 I test drove last weekend.
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      12-18-2019, 01:19 PM   #900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowM2C View Post
Again, please give me an example of any BMW with adaptive suspension that handles better than an M4 GTS with a set of $2500 coilovers and I'll buy you a beer.
This point is valid, the optional M Perf suspension is really good, I was in shock when I test drove my friends M2 equiped with them vs my Dinan HAS M2, mine felt like a loose old car when I got back in it. A few days later I ordered a Ohlins suspension.

As for the M2cs I don't see anything a downgrade vs M2c, maybe not what some would have hoped for but no one is forced to buy it if they don't like it.

But I will say this, slap a set of Pilot Sport Cup 2 (oem M2cs tire) on an M2c and an OG M2 and you would be surprised of the results on a track. I bet they would M2c would be really close to M2cs.
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      12-18-2019, 01:20 PM   #901
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The BMW adaptive suspension is not really that great compared to the GM magnaride technology which Audi licensed.
I had a M235i with adaptive suspension. In some situations the computer would get it wrong. My M2C actually rides better at 85mph than my M235i. At higher speeds the dampers get really stiff on big bumps because the BMW adaptive suspension springs are soft. They do all the stiffening with the dampers.
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      12-18-2019, 01:24 PM   #902
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I don't really have a stake in this argument...but I have always wondered if the active suspension in my F80 is broken. There's no appreciable difference in any of the modes, especially relative to the changes you get when changing the steering or throttle selections.

With that being said, I have never tracked the car, so it might be more apparent in those circumstances.

The adaptive suspension in the M2CS isn't a positive or negative, based upon how I have experienced it in the M3. Just my $.02...
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