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      10-14-2019, 09:35 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Sorry, but respectfully, you've lost your mind. Wheel hop is not operator error.
Every car has limitations its the drivers job to work within those limits. My mind is not quite lost but thanks for the concern.

Read the title "DSC Off" lets see the list of all of the cars that are designed to be driven with DSC off. That would be none. Driver turns DSC off and they take full responsibility. I have spun a couple of times at track days with DSC, never blamed the car but that's just me.
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      10-15-2019, 06:45 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by pruettfan View Post
Read the title "DSC Off" lets see the list of all of the cars that are designed to be driven with DSC off. That would be none.
List of cars I've owned that had wheel-hop when the surface was wet: 2 (the M2, and my Conquest TSi).

Other cars I've owned:

RX-7
MR-2
Miata
S2000
STi
Exige

And I can assure you that my Exige was built with the express intent to have NO driver aids, not even ABS.

Back to driving school with you, and take your nannies with you .
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      10-15-2019, 07:12 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Sorry, but respectfully, you've lost your mind. Wheel hop is not operator error.
respectfully, it seems like you are the only one having this issue but it's getting blown out of the water at this point with over 4 pages of this non sense. have your car checked out because it's unheard of.

You can list all sorts of cars you have owned previously. post up all the charts and graphs and photos of it too. but it doesn't change the fact that you are the only one having this issue.
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      10-15-2019, 09:00 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pruettfan View Post
Read the title "DSC Off" lets see the list of all of the cars that are designed to be driven with DSC off. That would be none.
List of cars I've owned that had wheel-hop when the surface was wet: 2 (the M2, and my Conquest TSi).

Other cars I've owned:

RX-7
MR-2
Miata
S2000
STi
Exige

And I can assure you that my Exige was built with the express intent to have NO driver aids, not even ABS.

Back to driving school with you, and take your nannies with you .



Go add a 90s Ford Mustang to your list and come back and rephrase your question.

Perhaps you are mistaking wheelspin due to torque at the rear wheels for wheel hop. Or perhaps your own excessive wheelspin and heavy foot is indeed causing wheel hop.

The two cars you have had the most issue with are both turbo RWD cars. STI is AWD and of course will transfer power away from spinning wheels. The rest of them are low torque/high rpm momentum cars that many would call torque less wonders ! I'm surprised a BRZ isn't on the list ? I've driven all but the Elise .. and own an E30 M3 for over 15 years so i know a momentum car when I see one !

Current day turbo BMWs deliver a tremendous amount of torque at 1500-4000 rpm... and they also are severely under tired. I didn't realize just how badly my rear tires were spinning until I put some 285/30 tires out back .....

use your power wisely.
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      10-15-2019, 09:48 AM   #71
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Took my car out the other day and tried a dozen launches. No wheel hop at all. MPSS. 4k on them.
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      10-15-2019, 09:53 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by termigni View Post
respectfully, it seems like you are the only one having this issue...
I'm not the only one having the issue, read the thread, and do a google search, what is represented here is just a fraction of M2 owners.
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      10-15-2019, 10:56 AM   #73
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I just got wheel hop today on my M2 with pilot super sports. Wet pavement, rolled onto the throttle in second gear. car accelerated , got some wheel slip, and past 4K rpm the right rear tire started to hop. Pathetic. My solid rear axle Mustang did it until I replaced springs, dampers and added a panhard bar. Then it never did it again. It’s a suspension setup issue.

And if these cars are not designed to be driven in DSC off then
1) there would be no way to switch it off and
2) BMW wouldn’t boast about Nurburgring lap times. Those are always driven in DSC off. Those systems help drivers with little or no skill, but you don’t have to use them if you can manage weight transfer, and side slip with steering, brakes and throttle and clutch.

Last edited by 5.M0NSTER; 10-15-2019 at 12:16 PM..
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      10-15-2019, 12:32 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
GM have a Patent on how to:

"Problematically, axle shafts frequently exhibit “powerhop” when a large amount of torque is applied thereto. Powerhop typically occurs when tire friction with respect to a road surface is periodically exceeded by low frequency (i.e., below about 20 Hz) oscillations in torsional windup of the axle shafts.

its in the definition itself...different tires have different tire friction coefficients between brands and models.


It goes back to what others have been saying, get better tires.
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      10-15-2019, 12:43 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
List of cars I've owned that had wheel-hop when the surface was wet: 2 (the M2, and my Conquest TSi).

Other cars I've owned:

RX-7
MR-2
Miata
S2000
STi
Exige

And I can assure you that my Exige was built with the express intent to have NO driver aids, not even ABS.

Back to driving school with you, and take your nannies with you .
None of those cars are from this current nanny driven era where the cars DSC is designed to prevent you from crashing. I am not saying your concerns are not real, I am saying the design limitations of the car are not compatible with your expectations.
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      10-15-2019, 12:58 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pruettfan View Post
None of those cars are from this current nanny driven era where the cars DSC is designed to prevent you from crashing. I am not saying your concerns are not real, I am saying the design limitations of the car are not compatible with your expectations.
So is your (and a few others here) argument that before Stability Control and Traction control were standard, performance car Manufacturers had to give a shit about suspension and tire vibration harmonics ... but now that these systems are standard and 90 % of users don’t even know how to turn them off OEMs don’t have to care anymore?
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      10-15-2019, 01:24 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
So is your (and a few others here) argument that before Stability Control and Traction control were standard, performance car Manufacturers had to give a shit about suspension and tire vibration harmonics ... but now that these systems are standard and 90 % of users don’t even know how to turn them off OEMs don’t have to care anymore?
he's saying newer cars have better dsc sports programming compared to first generation traction control systems.

i basically had a first gen dsc in my mercedes c32 amg...it was scary as hell because it would cut the power and apply brake mid apex and cause snap understeer.

The M division and porsche, more on the porsche side can program traction control to help on the turns and track conditions. Its one of the reasons traction control systems got banned from F1...the drivers would just floor it 100% throttle all the time and let the computer figure it out lol.

i tried in on the canyons in sports mode...i throttle a bit early on the apex on a decreasing radius corner..the rear came out a bit and i notice the dsc turn on and off as the rear end was rotating...the computer was smart enough not to cut all the power or apply too much brakes to prevent rotation.

i was actually kinda impressed with the DSC programming. You can see in MDM mode as well where they let you slide out the rear end a little bit before traction control turns on.

yes race car drivers are faster without dsc but most people probably are not.
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      10-15-2019, 02:11 PM   #78
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Ok, I see your point amd to a point I agree. Most people can't handle oversteer very well. Which is why single vehicle accidents are the largest cause of death. And why Traction and Stability control are now standard.

But the chassis and suspension are developed and tuned well before the stability or traction control. Which is why I call B.S. on the argument that cars are designed to be driven with stability control on. ABS, Traction and stability tuning is done AFTER the springs, dampers, control arms etc are in place.

Yes, stability systems can be tuned not just to save your from over or under steering, but to help you on the track. And F1 doesn't even have ABS because the focus is on driver skill, not who has better nannies.

But you can turn all but ABS off, and that is not a by-product, it's by design. So that the real drivers out there can enjoy the car. Not the other way around.
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      10-15-2019, 03:32 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
Ok, I see your point amd to a point I agree. Most people can't handle oversteer very well. Which is why single vehicle accidents are the largest cause of death. And why Traction and Stability control are now standard.

But the chassis and suspension are developed and tuned well before the stability or traction control. Which is why I call B.S. on the argument that cars are designed to be driven with stability control on. ABS, Traction and stability tuning is done AFTER the springs, dampers, control arms etc are in place.

Yes, stability systems can be tuned not just to save your from over or under steering, but to help you on the track. And F1 doesn't even have ABS because the focus is on driver skill, not who has better nannies.

But you can turn all but ABS off, and that is not a by-product, it's by design. So that the real drivers out there can enjoy the car. Not the other way around.
i doubt BMW would devote engineering resources to programming the different drive modes and different levels of throttle and traction characteristics if they didn't intend for people to use it.

Its just like the auto rev match..you can do it yourself but the computer will do it perfect every time type scenario.

There's a reason the auto makers are trying hard to compete against facebook and google for software engineers.

Its one of the reasons GM's laying off bunch of factory workers...there firing the metal benders to hire more programmers.
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      10-15-2019, 06:15 PM   #80
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This may well be the worst thread ever. OP keeps referring to google search when real world folks say nope. Quit being a dick. Google 'Dick'.
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      10-15-2019, 07:15 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by stulio2181 View Post
This may well be the worst thread ever. OP keeps referring to google search when real world folks say nope. Quit being a dick. Google 'Dick'.
LoLing...

I'm sure 90% of his complaints is related to the incorrect tire type..

The only time I've experience any type of wheel hop or traction lost is when the temperature changes and I don't have the season-appropriate tires on. You can still overcome this with the proper throttle modulation and common sense.

Other than that, when the weather is right; I hit the clutch, hit the gas and I'm gone, like a slingshot
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      10-15-2019, 07:19 PM   #82
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Exactly my point. Rando issue blown up to 4 pages, and I ain't helping. I googled it, I swear! Lol
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      10-15-2019, 07:59 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stulio2181 View Post
This may well be the worst thread ever. OP keeps referring to google search when real world folks say nope. Quit being a dick. Google 'Dick'.
Wow, the maturity level of some of you guys.
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      10-15-2019, 08:14 PM   #84
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Wow, the maturity level of some of you guys.
Well, once the Halloween days will have ebbed away, the discussion will shift to another topic over here.
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      10-15-2019, 08:23 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stulio2181 View Post
This may well be the worst thread ever. OP keeps referring to google search when real world folks say nope. Quit being a dick. Google 'Dick'.
Wow, the maturity level of some of you guys.
Dude, you literally accused pruettfan of losing his mind when he was trying to help. Quit being condescending.
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      10-15-2019, 10:56 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
LoLing...

I'm 90% his complaints is related to the incorrect tire type..

The only time I've experience any type of wheel hop or traction lost is when the temperature changes and I don't have the season-appropriate tires on. You can still overcome this with the proper throttle modulation and common sense.

Other than that, when the weather is right; I hit the clutch, hit the gas and I'm gone, like a slingshot
Seconded...

Don't floor the car in bad weather in a straight line. Honestly, it's not alone, a ton of powerful front engine, rear wheel drive cars will get some wheel hop from time to time in that specific situation. A ton of fwd cars will do it as well.

The problem barely exists in the dry and doesn't exist if there's any type of turning going on.
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      10-16-2019, 06:06 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TemjinX2 View Post
i doubt BMW would devote engineering resources to programming the different drive modes and different levels of throttle and traction characteristics if they didn't intend for people to use it.

Its just like the auto rev match..you can do it yourself but the computer will do it perfect every time type scenario.

There's a reason the auto makers are trying hard to compete against facebook and google for software engineers.

Its one of the reasons GM's laying off bunch of factory workers...there firing the metal benders to hire more programmers.
The point of different driving modes is to gradually transfer more responsibility for vehicle stability to the driver.

TCS mode turns of brake traction control but maintains engine traction control
Sport mode loosens the slip thresholds at which DSC and TCS intervene
Sport + mode disables TCS completely and loosens DSC threshold while sharpening throttle reslponse
DSC Off mode turns off everything but ABS.

The point of this is to allow the driver to gradually learn how to control the car. If it was a simple All On/All Off you have the Mustang leaving Cars and coffee scenario.

But the ultimate goal is give varying support (including no support) to a driver based on their skill and support them in gaining skill.

I work in the Auto industry and I lead a team of developers working on Electronic Stability Control features and automated emergency braking functions. I'm well aware of how software intensive these systems are. Most of my employees are computer/electronics/software engineers, and some have PhDs in physics or Automotive Engineering. Definitely no metal benders here.

Here is my gripe with this thread:
I just don't understand why so many on this thread put their head in the sand about wheel hop. It does exist, and it is ultimately caused by inappropriate tuning of damping frequencies. Some OEMs have it so bad it causes propulsion half shafts to snap. But all OEMs struggle with it to a point. I'm glad a lot of M2 owners here are not affected by it. That's a good sign. But some are, and there is no need to blame the driver or the tire. Suspension design has to consider tire osculation frequency. The combination of mounting bushings, spring forces, damping rebound and compression harmonics and the oscillation frequency of the tire are the root cause.

When you push the throttle on a smooth surface all you should have to manage as a driver is wheel slip and yaw. Not hop. That's a design issue. Period.
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      10-16-2019, 08:27 AM   #88
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It was about 46° this morning, and I was out early, so I turned off all the nannies to have a little fun. I broke the tires loose several times with no wheel-hop at all. The first couple of times the tires were obviously cold and there was a lot of slip, but as they warmed up there was very little slip, but what was there was very smooth.

Maybe it's just the combination of new tires and a wet surface that produces the hop.
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