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      10-20-2019, 01:17 PM   #89
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Hey guys, here's an update from another open track day last month:

Max temps
Ambient - 101F
IAT - 152F
Oil - 275F
Coolant - 256F

The only difference with the car was I was mostly running BM3 OTS Stg 2 E30 5.8, vs Stg 2H 5.7. See log links below.

Quick thoughts:

IATs
I'm not worried about watching IATs anymore. The ethanol does a really good job of keeping power levels up when IATs increase. And, this track was more representative of the longer and more open tracks I visit, vs the shorter/tighter tracks that were really driving up IATs in my other posts.

The outcome was a max ambient/IAT delta of 51F, vs 60F on the tighter tracks. Seems reasonable considering a really hot day and pushing the car hard for 30+ min at a time.


Oil/Coolant Temps
These continue to be my bane. The 5.8 map did a better job at not reaching these temps as quickly as the Stg 2H 5.7 map, but I'd still hit temps where the car would begin to pull power (Coolant >241F, Oil >270F).

MAF values with the Stg 2 5.8 map were down a tiny bit vs Stg 2H 5.7. And, 5.8's approach to power trades some boost for timing, so I was seeing peaks of 16.5-psi on Stg 2 5.8 vs 17.9-psi on Stg 2H 5.7.

These factors are what helped the engine not get to power pulling temps as quickly, but I'd still reach coolant temps of >240F after 6-laps and >250F a couple laps later. Also, 5.8 doesn't have as large of a power drop in the upper RPMs as 5.7, so lap times ended up being similar.


Next Steps
I'm not really sure what best to do to address the engine cooling issue on hot days, but here are a few thoughts:

-I don't see meth being effective enough to lower engine temps over long runs. Sure, IATs will be lower, but I'd be using a huge amount of meth to do that, and it would likely only buy me a couple more laps before coolant temps would reach >240F anyways.

-Running pure water vs a water/glycol mix will bring coolant temps down, but water's vapor pressure is lower so I need to figure out our cooling system's operating pressure to make sure it operates high enough so vapor bubbles don't form in low pressure areas around the engine block and create hot spots. Anyone know our cooling system's operating pressure?

-For engine tuning, you can see I was increasing the E mix up to E35, just to see what the car would do. It didn't help with cooling or power (no tune to take advantage of it) and you can see the HPFP straining more as the Emix goes up. So, I could likely upgrade the HPFP and focus on an E35-45 tune that keeps boost down, but increases timing. It wouldn't be a big power increase since I'd keep boost levels down, and I'm guessing it still wouldn't provide many more laps of keeping engine temps down.

-For engine hardware, I'm running the FTP turbo inlet pipe and can change to the new Pure inlet turbo pipe to hopefully gain a little bit more flow. This would be another incremental gain, vs a fix.

Also, I could change from my Dinan turbo to a PS2 and follow the engine tuning thoughts above to go higher on Emix & timing while keeping boost levels lower. This would produce a little more power and likely lower temps, but similar to my thoughts on meth, would the lower IATs really be enough to keep engine temps in check? And, I hate the idea of adding more turbo lag.

-For airflow, changing to an M2C nose and adding fender/hood venting may end up being the most effective approach to keeping engine temps in check. Altho, I haven't seen any data on this, and I'm one of those guys that really likes the M2's looks and do not want to change to an M2C nose or add vents that will impact the car's aesthetics.

So, what do you guys think? I can always take the shotgun approach, but I'm curious which of the fixes above will have the most impact.

Thanks!

Logs
Stg 2 E30 5.8 earlier in the day:
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d7a500eae729b06e29120da

Stg 2 E30 5.8 in the afternoon:
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d7a93fcc090c677bd36877e

Stg 2H E30 5.7 in the afternoon:
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d7a6ef3c090c677bd3686df

Last edited by ZM2; 10-20-2019 at 03:17 PM..
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      10-20-2019, 08:57 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Hey guys, here's an update from another open track day last month:

Max temps
Ambient - 101F
IAT - 152F
Oil - 275F
Coolant - 256F

The only difference with the car was I was mostly running BM3 OTS Stg 2 E30 5.8, vs Stg 2H 5.7. See log links below.

Quick thoughts:

IATs
I'm not worried about watching IATs anymore. The ethanol does a really good job of keeping power levels up when IATs increase. And, this track was more representative of the longer and more open tracks I visit, vs the shorter/tighter tracks that were really driving up IATs in my other posts.

The outcome was a max ambient/IAT delta of 51F, vs 60F on the tighter tracks. Seems reasonable considering a really hot day and pushing the car hard for 30+ min at a time.


Oil/Coolant Temps
These continue to be my bane.
Iíve been looking forward to the cooler fall weather here to be a big help in the coolant department - of course that means Saturday at COTA was only 93* The heat did give us a chance to see how the air to water intercooler conversion would fare - came away pretty happy. Didnít pull any logs but could tell the temps were definitely lower & and never had timing pulled. Ran for almost a full hour at the end with only stops to come in to swap passengers every few laps. Previous runs in the heat would start having timing pulled by the end of the first lap. Feel like we are moving in a good direction. The top mount intercooler was very cool to the touch every time I came in. Feel like that made all the difference. IMO the design with the fmic is just not up to the job running hard on a hot track. IAT skyrocket quickly and everything just heatsoaks soon after that.

The 7670 turbo is in but we are still running stock level power so Iím not 100% how it will fare when we get to full power. At full boost it would make awesome power - but would pretty quickly kick into limp mode. Had to cap the boost pretty low to keep it from glitching out. As we work through the tune Iíll let you know how the cooling holds up. Definitely better at stockish power levels - hopefully that holds up as the power increases too.

Vents might help a bit, but Imo to see a big benefit from them you really need to direct the hot air out. Without the room to funnel it out I donít think they will be very effective. If you are not a fan of their aesthetics then I would maybe pass on them. If you can handle their look then should help a bit, just maybe not as much as you are hoping for.
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      10-20-2019, 09:04 PM   #91
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Looking forward to more details about your liquid to air IC!
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      10-20-2019, 09:48 PM   #92
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Maybe have a water sprayer system, take a look at the torqbyte kit they have a controller called the CM5 that can power two solenoids, one for you charge pipe to keep iats down and you can have a second (if you're using distilled water) to spray you intercooler, radiator, and oil cooler with the help of a distribution block.
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      10-20-2019, 09:51 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Looking forward to more details about your liquid to air IC!


Will be posting the details of the new setup here soon. The IC still being cool to the touch after a hard run is pretty awesome.
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      10-20-2019, 10:32 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
Iíve been looking forward to the cooler fall weather here to be a big help in the coolant department - of course that means Saturday at COTA was only 93* The heat did give us a chance to see how the air to water intercooler conversion would fare - came away pretty happy. Didnít pull any logs but could tell the temps were definitely lower & and never had timing pulled. Ran for almost a full hour at the end with only stops to come in to swap passengers every few laps. Previous runs in the heat would start having timing pulled by the end of the first lap. Feel like we are moving in a good direction. The top mount intercooler was very cool to the touch every time I came in. Feel like that made all the difference. IMO the design with the fmic is just not up to the job running hard on a hot track. IAT skyrocket quickly and everything just heatsoaks soon after that.

The 7670 turbo is in but we are still running stock level power so Iím not 100% how it will fare when we get to full power. At full boost it would make awesome power - but would pretty quickly kick into limp mode. Had to cap the boost pretty low to keep it from glitching out. As we work through the tune Iíll let you know how the cooling holds up. Definitely better at stockish power levels - hopefully that holds up as the power increases too.

Vents might help a bit, but Imo to see a big benefit from them you really need to direct the hot air out. Without the room to funnel it out I donít think they will be very effective. If you are not a fan of their aesthetics then I would maybe pass on them. If you can handle their look then should help a bit, just maybe not as much as you are hoping for.
Are you planning to sell an air to water intercooler kit for the n55? The only thing holding me back is fabbing the 2 to 1 pipe for the air to water intercooler and making brackets for the heat exchanger.
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      10-21-2019, 12:18 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Are you planning to sell an air to water intercooler kit for the n55? The only thing holding me back is fabbing the 2 to 1 pipe for the air to water intercooler and making brackets for the heat exchanger.
Yeah a kit for this conversion would be awesome. Not sure if they are planning on putting one together - I'll let you know if they do.
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      10-21-2019, 12:57 PM   #96
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Yeah a kit for this conversion would be awesome. Not sure if they are planning on putting one together - I'll let you know if they do.
Yeah that would be sweet!
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      10-21-2019, 03:36 PM   #97
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Alright, short of a bad ass custom air to liquid IC setup, what do guys think is the best way to address high oil/coolant temps? I already have all the upgraded coolers.

As mentioned in my post, meth, pure water in the cooling loop, engine tuning, turbo inlet, and turbo upgrade all come to mind, but Iím not sure which will have enough/the most impact.
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      10-21-2019, 05:18 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Alright, short of a bad ass custom air to liquid IC setup, what do guys think is the best way to address high oil/coolant temps? I already have all the upgraded coolers.

As mentioned in my post, meth, pure water in the cooling loop, engine tuning, turbo inlet, and turbo upgrade all come to mind, but Iím not sure which will have enough/the most impact.
I don't think the upgraded oil coolers currently offered will cut it, you'll likely have to make a custom oil cooler setup with a larger core like a setrab with custom lines.
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      10-21-2019, 07:18 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
I don't think the upgraded oil coolers currently offered will cut it, you'll likely have to make a custom oil cooler setup with a larger core like a setrab with custom lines.
I hit high temp on coolant well before oil. So, weíll have to figure out how to address that first.

CSF has a race radiator thatís larger than my CSF radiator, but requires AC delete. Thatís a no go for me.

Not sure what else can be done on the coolant loop besides the coolant/oil exchanger delete, but then your oil doesnít heat up very quickly.

Pure water is supposed to lower temps 15-20F, but I need to figure out our coolant operating pressure to understand the vapor pressure risk.
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      10-21-2019, 07:23 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I hit high temp on coolant well before oil. So, weíll have to figure out how to address that first.

CSF has a race radiator thatís larger than my CSF radiator, but requires AC delete. Thatís a no go for me.

Not sure what else can be done on the coolant loop besides the coolant/oil exchanger delete, but then your oil doesnít heat up very quickly.

Pure water is supposed to lower temps 15-20F, but I need to figure out our coolant operating pressure to understand the vapor pressure risk.
I see, you can do a heat exchanger delete that separates oil and water temps, and then you can run a large oil cooler behind the grilles and dual aux rads in the bottom.

I believe TYSP33D was working on a kit for sale so you may want to message him about that.
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      10-21-2019, 07:42 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
I hit high temp on coolant well before oil. So, weíll have to figure out how to address that first.

CSF has a race radiator thatís larger than my CSF radiator, but requires AC delete. Thatís a no go for me.

Not sure what else can be done on the coolant loop besides the coolant/oil exchanger delete, but then your oil doesnít heat up very quickly.

Pure water is supposed to lower temps 15-20F, but I need to figure out our coolant operating pressure to understand the vapor pressure risk.
I think that is going to be the road block that we run into with the N55 in this platform - unless we do some major modifications I'm not sure there is a way to keep the temps under check when it starts to get warm outside. The only OG M2 that I have seen to claim good temps in the heat is basically a race car. AC delete, major body modifications to funnel the heat out, added coolers etc. That's awesome and all - but as you know not very practical if you want to keep the car on the street. None of the aftermarket coolers seem to be able to prevent it - looks like it is inherent in the design of the car/powertrain.

I'm personally going to try to stay away from meth or pure water injection for as long as possible. Was leaning towards that direction at first but then decided to go with IC conversion & bigger turbo. Also upgraded the HPFP so hoping to be able to run up to full E85. Hoping the combo of the bigger turbo, ethanol, and new IC help us reach our power goal much more efficiently. Not going to run it near max power on the track - so hoping that making "easy" power on the track will promote cooler operating temps. My goal for power is 450 or a little more at the wheels.
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      10-22-2019, 09:39 AM   #102
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Is the pressure of the cooling system stated on the cap of the coolant tank? On my Mustang the cap stated 18psi I think.

And some guys replaced with 21psi cap to increase the boiling temp at least in theory.
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      10-22-2019, 10:27 AM   #103
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Quote:
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Is the pressure of the cooling system stated on the cap of the coolant tank? On my Mustang the cap stated 18psi I think.

And some guys replaced with 21psi cap to increase the boiling temp at least in theory.
That was the first place I checked, but didn't see it listed.
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      10-22-2019, 02:01 PM   #104
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Becareful with increasing the pressure of the cooling system you could possibly blow a head gasket.
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      10-22-2019, 02:11 PM   #105
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Becareful with increasing the pressure of the cooling system you could possibly blow a head gasket.
Yeah, wasnít planning to increase it, just want to make sure itís high enough to not form vapor bubbles at 255F if using pure water.
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      10-22-2019, 02:18 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OG Shark View Post
I think that is going to be the road block that we run into with the N55 in this platform - unless we do some major modifications I'm not sure there is a way to keep the temps under check when it starts to get warm outside. The only OG M2 that I have seen to claim good temps in the heat is basically a race car. AC delete, major body modifications to funnel the heat out, added coolers etc. That's awesome and all - but as you know not very practical if you want to keep the car on the street. None of the aftermarket coolers seem to be able to prevent it - looks like it is inherent in the design of the car/powertrain.

I'm personally going to try to stay away from meth or pure water injection for as long as possible. Was leaning towards that direction at first but then decided to go with IC conversion & bigger turbo. Also upgraded the HPFP so hoping to be able to run up to full E85. Hoping the combo of the bigger turbo, ethanol, and new IC help us reach our power goal much more efficiently. Not going to run it near max power on the track - so hoping that making "easy" power on the track will promote cooler operating temps. My goal for power is 450 or a little more at the wheels.
Do you think xdi 35 is enough for full E85, or did you go 60?

Although, Iím guessing the tuning would show no point in going E50+ with the smaller turbos. No idea for sure, tho.
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      10-22-2019, 02:21 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
I see, you can do a heat exchanger delete that separates oil and water temps, and then you can run a large oil cooler behind the grilles and dual aux rads in the bottom.

I believe TYSP33D was working on a kit for sale so you may want to message him about that.
Yeah, hate to do all that custom work on a DD if I can avoid it, but sounds like itís the only path.

Iíll probably try the Pure inlet pipe and 100% water in the cooling system on hot days to see what that does, then go from there.
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      10-22-2019, 02:39 PM   #108
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Quote:
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Do you think xdi 35 is enough for full E85, or did you go 60?

Although, Iím guessing the tuning would show no point in going E50+ with the smaller turbos. No idea for sure, tho.
There's like no data on this despite all the research I've done, but what it seems is that the 35 maxes out around E30 or a bit higher with a PS2, and can barely do full E85 with a stock turbo. So imo you'll need the 60 model to hit full e85.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Yeah, hate to do all that custom work on a DD if I can avoid it, but sounds like itís the only path.

Iíll probably try the Pure inlet pipe and 100% water in the cooling system on hot days to see what that does, then go from there.
Good luck and keep us updated!
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      10-22-2019, 02:39 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Yeah, hate to do all that custom work on a DD if I can avoid it, but sounds like itís the only path.

Iíll probably try the Pure inlet pipe and 100% water in the cooling system on hot days to see what that does, then go from there.
Good plan. Sorry for missing your post earlier. No idea what nominal pressure our cooling systems are at.
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      10-22-2019, 03:24 PM   #110
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While we’re on the subject, this is a good read for those interested: https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/f...ech%20Info.pdf

My take away is running pure water has more impact than adding wetter to a glycol mix. Water + wetter is obviously the best and what I’ll try.
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