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      08-19-2018, 03:06 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
Well, you appear to be focussing on peak power as a way to minimise lap time. There are other ways to do that without getting taken to the cleaners by suppliers of tuning and cooling parts.

Based on the links you're posting, it might be cheaper to move to Canada...
Guess you havenít read my M2 Track Notes thread to see the evolution of how I got here.

All Iím trying to do now is use the extra power Iíve installed while keeping things cool. So far, Iím getting some great feedback from the rest of the community.
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      08-19-2018, 03:39 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pal View Post
I am surprised your coolant temp is getting that high. Did you change your thermostat for a low temp unit?

I would kill for 266 oil temps in 100+ degree ambient track days. On my TT RS (Loba hybrid turbo, catless downpipe, mid-cats deleted, Forge Race intercooler, 21 psi tune), I can get upto 280 for oil on 20-25 min sessions when beating the piss out of the car. I back off a bit when I see 280. Sorta sad to see that I’ll have to deal with heat on the M2 once I start tracking it; my Z4MC was rock solid on track.
The m2c probably will be rock solid for track temperatures.
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      08-19-2018, 03:48 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by akkando View Post
The m2c probably will be rock solid for track temperatures.
Agreed.

Altho, having driven and tracked N55s and S55s, I much prefer the lower RPM torque delivery, more linear power delivery throughout the rev range, and the sound of the N55 over the S55.

This cooling issue is the last step for me to dial in the car the way I'd like for daily and track driving, and to fully enjoy a fantastic car.
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      08-19-2018, 06:54 PM   #48
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@M_fifty

There is a absolutely nothing wrong with more power with M2 on track, except that it's stupidly tuned for low down torque surge which Dinan is not, unlike the most of others..

In fact, more manageable power is the next best thing to tire to improve lap time.

F87 fully adopt the chassis engineered for all F80/82 variants that's 60~140ps more powerful from factory. And F87 is shorter but only slightly lighter.

F87 this thing is desperate for more power than for anything else since day one. You can really feel it on track, once tire warm, even continental gets you full traction. And you feel absolutely nothing from 3rd gear.

You will understand the strong torque you feel on street is just illusion. Smoking tire adds to that feeling. Once you have traction, there's very little left in M2 stock if you push more.
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      08-20-2018, 11:34 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Wagner vs ATM, there are two comparison thread with different results... Check below.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1141360

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1518971

My comments on this:
1) My data set is a lot more comprehensive. I have two full weeks of on track and daily driving vs one day of very limited tests.
2) My tests were completely independent from manufacturers. I spent my own money, time, and used my own equipment with no monetary or physical help from the manufacturers. The other test was done at Wagner's HQ, in presence of their staff (who were helping), and using their equipment at no charge to the tester.
3) There may be financial motive. The other tester is a vendor selling Wagner, but not ATM.

Last edited by FaRKle!; 08-20-2018 at 11:39 AM..
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      08-20-2018, 06:51 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaRKle! View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Wagner vs ATM, there are two comparison thread with different results... Check below.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1141360

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1518971

My comments on this:
1) My data set is a lot more comprehensive. I have two full weeks of on track and daily driving vs one day of very limited tests.
2) My tests were completely independent from manufacturers. I spent my own money, time, and used my own equipment with no monetary or physical help from the manufacturers. The other test was done at Wagner's HQ, in presence of their staff (who were helping), and using their equipment at no charge to the tester.
3) There may be financial motive. The other tester is a vendor selling Wagner, but not ATM.
I agree.

I too think the other comparo is a little biased. Yours show ATM's cooling advantage over Wagner. Though as I mentioned already, pressure loss can't be measured at post intercooler because that's what DME is targeting, always the same.

Great stuff!
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      08-26-2018, 05:29 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Hey guys.

We all know the packaging and cooling system shortcomings of the OG M2, vs the M2 Comp and S55. Altho, these shortcomings tend to not appear until you're really pushing the car on track.

I'm running the Dinan Stage 4 setup (turbo, piggyback, Dinan IC) and CSF cooling pack (radiator, DCT, oil) and experienced some pretty high temps at my last track day.

Max temps:
Ambient - 107F
IAT - 161F
Oil - 266F
Coolant - 253F

This was an open track day and I was running with slicks, AP racing brakes, all the Stage 4 goodies, and pushing the car hard for 40min runs, so I'd say this is an extreme case for the M2.

The car starts to pull power above 242F coolant and will go into emergency cooling mode around 257F coolant. I was getting significant power pulled, so I'm searching for more engine cooling capacity.

CSF said they're working on a larger radiator, but it requires an AC delete due to the M2's packaging.

Do you guys have any ideas or other solutions? Thanks.
Well, the engine oil cooler. How much bigger than stock are you currently running?
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      08-26-2018, 08:59 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
Well, the engine oil cooler. How much bigger than stock are you currently running?
Itís the CSF oil cooler. Oil temps looks good. Going to try the do88 larger remote radiator and potentially a different IC.

Wonít have all that done for a few weeks and wonít be able to test it until Oct.
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      08-26-2018, 12:38 PM   #53
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Well, at least the air temperature ought to be a little lower then. Was it just pulling timing, or going for the full Limp Home Mode?
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      08-26-2018, 03:15 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
Well, at least the air temperature ought to be a little lower then. Was it just pulling timing, or going for the full Limp Home Mode?
OG M2 starts to pull power above 242F coolant. Itíll go limp mode around 260F.
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      08-27-2018, 11:36 AM   #55
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Going to have to short-shift on the hotter days at the track then maybe. Or possibly look at retrofitting the charge cooler set up from the M3/M4 in place of the intercooler set up.

I think it also goes to limp mode on the oil temperature.
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      08-27-2018, 11:44 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
Going to have to short-shift on the hotter days at the track then maybe. Or possibly look at retrofitting the charge cooler set up from the M3/M4 in place of the intercooler set up.

I think it also goes to limp mode on the oil temperature.
I was already short shifting. Oil temp limp mode doesnít kick in until above 300F.

Iím not looking to drive around the problem or do any crazy retrofit work. I think it can be solved with better cooling and airflow within the constraints of the N55 M2.

We shall see soon enough.
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      08-28-2018, 10:05 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Meth will not help at all, if anything it makes engine hotter, because octane improves and IAT decreases so engine keeps pushing.

I myself did track on similar condition a few times, bigger turbo or stock. I believe the humidity was even higher in my area and heat index (feels like) is 122+F. There was no heat soak (oil, coolant, IAT) issue whatsoever, the needle stayed dead in the middle however hard I pushed. Only thing my brake was hot like hell, you can hardly stand next to it even after a cooling lap...

The key to keep engine cool is 1) Less boost 2) Less back pressure 3) Richer afr (Dinan does that) 4) Higher timing ignition (helps EGT).

I also suspect Dinan intercooler can be part of the root cause. I have no doubt it cools IAT well thanks to the dual core design. But the dual core 'block' the air moving thru so the radiators behind it gets less cooling as a result.
Owh man... sounds like I didn't do my car any favors thinking the water meth would cool my M2 down. thankfully though, its been good and I presume its the combination of my intercooler upgrade that's helped with keeping the car running temps down. Averaging 95 - 102 deg C during spirited drives since the water meth, although I presume it has to do with my settings too.
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      08-28-2018, 10:10 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Itís the CSF oil cooler. Oil temps looks good. Going to try the do88 larger remote radiator and potentially a different IC.

Wonít have all that done for a few weeks and wonít be able to test it until Oct.
I hope all goes well for you sir. Please do let us know how your car fairs out with your add-ons You've really gotten me interested with the CSF oil cooler.

Apart from my water meth I've added these items below which possibly assisted with decent temp figures:
  • Snow Performance Water Methanol (Stage 2 Kit)
  • VR Speed Charge Pipe Upgrade
  • VF Engineering Stage 2 Flash
  • Full Turbo Back Exhaust with catless DP
  • Armaspeed Induction System (Very certian it doesn't contribute to lowered IAT)
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      08-29-2018, 05:24 PM   #59
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Hey guys new here but not new to bmw tuning.

Anyways I had a few thoughts after reading this thread.

1) How does the S55 oil cooler work (seeing that it is perpendicular to the ground), in regards to air flow?

2) Is it possible for us to use an S55 style oil cooler mounted under the car (alot larger than our oil cooler), so we can convert the AUX oil cooler rad to another AUX radiator? That should help us solve some of our temp issues.
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      09-26-2018, 12:44 AM   #60
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What about using Water injection like the M4 GTS? I'll admit I haven't researched this but there must be systems out there for those who need/want it.
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      09-26-2018, 01:34 AM   #61
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Anyone running the ER oil cooler kit? I'm slightly lost between the CSF oil cooler and the ER one. Price difference is somewhat marginal. From the looks of it, the ER has better performance than the CSF, but that's because it isn't PnP.

So if anyone has any input on how much more difficult it is to install the ER, or which is better for extremely spirited daily driving, I'd appreciate it.

Note: Summer temperatures here peak at ~38C, and we go through a lot of traffic before even reaching the good roads.
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      10-05-2018, 05:38 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 963mw View Post
Anyone running the ER oil cooler kit? I'm slightly lost between the CSF oil cooler and the ER one. Price difference is somewhat marginal. From the looks of it, the ER has better performance than the CSF, but that's because it isn't PnP.

So if anyone has any input on how much more difficult it is to install the ER, or which is better for extremely spirited daily driving, I'd appreciate it.

Note: Summer temperatures here peak at ~38C, and we go through a lot of traffic before even reaching the good roads.
The CSF oil cooler will be more than adequate to handle your requirements, as well as on-track cooling duties.

Just because a cooler looks "bigger" doesn't mean it works better. CSF engineered the best oil cooler on the market, keeping in mind a drop-in fit solution.

Other companies go to a different / bigger set-up because they don't have the manufacturing technologies to make what CSF has.
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      10-05-2018, 05:58 AM   #63
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Hard to keep cool in 107* ambient conditions! I've been running with the ER oil cooler and have been able to keep temperature thresholds below critical in 92* ambient. Installation is pretty involved but I'm happy with the results.
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      07-26-2019, 07:35 PM   #64
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Hey guys, thought I'd update the thread with this year's open track battle observations.

Max temps:
Ambient - 95F
IAT - 155F
Oil - 270F
Coolant - 256F

IATs were 10F lower than last year but matched ambient being 10F lower, as well. Oil/coolant max temps were similar to last year.

So, no real change in max temps if I kept pushing the car for an extended period, but I'm putting out a decent bit more power as evidenced by:

-I only made power mods to the car since last yr (already had suspension and AP BBK)
-Me being able to keep up on the straights with my Uncle's supercharged E93 (567whp) if I had a good run off the corner
-Top speed was 124mph this yr, vs 118mph last year
-Lap times were 3sec quicker than last year, even tho we were running RE-71R's this yr, vs R7s last yr
-M Laptimer comparison showing consistent time gain under power on the straights, and a little extra time gain under braking (using new Ferodo DS3.12 pads, which are great!)

Hardware changes since last year, include:

-Motul 300V vs BMW 0W-30 (I noticed 10F reduction in oil temps when doing BM3 test runs/logs)
-Dinan IC changed to Wagner Evo2 Comp IC (definitely sheds heat much quicker during BM3 logging)
-Replaced stock downpipe with HJS 300-cell DP (nice additional power bump & sound)
-do88 remote radiator (already had CSF main radiator and DCT & oil coolers last year)
-BM3 Stg 2H E30 tune & fuel vs Dinantronics Stage 4 with 96 octane (93/100 octane mix). Halim has been a huge help over the last few months in creating a Stg 2H E30 tune based on my logs, and the E30 keeps much more consistent power levels than pure gas as IATs get into 125-150F territory, see the MAF and timing values in the links below.

While max temps ended up being the same as last year, the hardware changes helped temps to increase more slowly, and the E30 helped me maintain consistent power levels as temps got high.

To add another interesting data point, below is a 100 octane session on the Stg 2 Race Gas map and one of my Stg 2H E30 sessions with E30 fuel. Boost actual vs target, MAF, and timing values remained higher with E30 vs 100 octane and the Race Gas map, even tho ambient was 10F higher during the E30 log!

Stg 2H E30:
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d3a12dac090c65ddbf48125

Racegas map with 100 octane:
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d39e50bc090c65ddbf480c0

Next step is likely WMI, as that will provide IAT cooling and give a little additional fueling, and maybe have an impact on how quickly engine temps increase.

Last edited by ZM2; 07-27-2019 at 08:14 AM..
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      07-27-2019, 12:01 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Hey guys, thought I'd update the thread with this year's open track battle observations.

Max temps:
Ambient - 95F
IAT - 155F
Oil - 270F
Coolant - 256F

IATs were 10F lower than last year but matched ambient being 10F lower, as well, and oil/coolant max temps were similar to last year.

So, no real change in max temps if I kept pushing the car for an extended period, but I'm putting out a decent bit more power as evidenced by:

-I only made power mods to the car since last yr (already had suspension and AP BBK)
-Me being able to keep up on the straights with my Uncle's supercharged E93 (567whp) if I had a good run off the corner
-Top speed was 124mph this yr, vs 118mph last year
-Lap times were 3sec quicker than last year, even tho we were running RE-71R's this yr, vs R7s last yr
-M Laptimer comparison showing consistent time gain under power on the straights, and a little extra time gain under braking (using new Ferodo DS3.12 pads, which are great!)

Hardware changes since last year, include:

-Motul 300V vs BMW 0W-30 (I noticed 10F reduction in oil temps when doing BM3 test runs/logs)
-Dinan IC changed to Wagner Evo2 Comp IC (definitely sheds heat much quicker during BM3 logging)
-Replaced stock downpipe with HJS 300-cell DP (nice additional power bump & sound)
-do88 remote radiator (already had CSF main radiator and DCT & oil coolers last year)
-BM3 Stg 2H E30 tune & fuel vs Dinantronics Stage 4 with 96 octane (93/100 octane mix). The E30 keeps much more consistent power levels than pure gas as IATs get into 125-150F territory, see the MAF and timing values in the links below.

While max temps ended up being the same as last year, the hardware changes helped temps to increase more slowly, and the E30 helped me maintain consistent power levels as temps got high.

To add another interesting data point, below is a 100 octane session on the Stg 2 Race Gas map and one of my Stg 2H E30 sessions with E30 fuel. Boost actual vs target, MAF, and timing values remained higher with E30 vs 100 octane and the Race Gas map, even tho ambient was 10F higher during the E30 log!

Stg 2H E30:
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d3a12dac090c65ddbf48125

Racegas map with 100 octane:
http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d39e50bc090c65ddbf480c0

Next step is likely WMI, as that will provide IAT cooling and give a little additional fueling, and maybe have a little impact on how quickly engine temps increase.
Looks good man! I look forward to seeing how iats and temps do with the wmi!

Also TYSP33D was working on an m2 extreme cooling kit as per his Instagram, so if anyone was interested in getting a setup that's been race tested such as on his car hit him up.
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      08-02-2019, 12:54 PM   #66
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just throwing it out there...in terms of coolant temps..have you thought about getting larger faster aftermarket radiator fans and hook it up to a separate switch and just keep the fans on during the track seccesion.
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