[Poochie]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Sorry. It cheapens the product and not in good way.

1+

I bought a vape pen from an American seller but in big, bold letters it proudly displays "Made in Germany." I get that insignia is required by US Customs but it also shows the perception of European-engineered (and assembled) products, that it is build with a higher caliber of quality assurance and standards.

Regardless if that's an ignorant notion it still hits at why some folks have an issue with their German vehicle being Made In Mexico. It's nothing personal against that particular country but it's more of keeping the lineage of that particular product intact. However, anytime anyone attempts to convey this point, it skews into something political.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Disagree. Why did the guys from Harry's razors buy an old German factory during their start up and then advertise their razors are MADE IN Germany? They sure as hell didn't say their razors are German designed

How about our extensive set of Wusthof cutlery. German designed. Made in China I think not.

It doesn't even have to be about Germany. I can name numerous products where people would expect said product to be DESIGNED AND MANUFACTURED in country.

Sorry. It cheapens the product and not in good way.

You have an antiquated perspective on manufacturing. Quality is defined by process. Where has little to do with the actual quality. Robots also don't seem to care where they operate.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by chris719

You have an antiquated perspective on manufacturing. Quality is defined by process. Where has little to do with the actual quality. Robots also don't seem to care where they operate.

Really? So why didn't Harry's for instance buy a chinese Razor manufacturing plant and advertise made in China??? I'm sure it would have been cheaper for them.

Answer: Because that wouldn't have helped them sell shit.

I have nothing against Mexico, China etc etc... but I still want my German car made in Germany for ED pickup, My Scotch from Scotland, My HK Pistol from Germany, My French wine from France, etc etc etc........

I almost forgot our glass from Murano

[akkando]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

In the same vein, no consumer product company has the obligation to be interested in satisfying the whims (see? I can also find emotionally charged words) of an individual customer. The basic goal of any such company is to sell as much product as possible for as much money as possible with as little cost as possible.

The critical fact that you are ignoring here is that BMW will not be able to sell as much of its product if it is not perceived by the majority of its potential customers as a premium product exceeding the qualities of similar products offered by the competitors. The company understands that while a few people pay attention to the country of the final assembly, it does not affect the general perception of the target customer population in a significant way. Just like it understands that the FWD drivetrain of its smaller cars does not affect that same perception. Your personal preferences simply do. not. matter. Find a few thousand other people who were going to buy a G42 in 2022 but now will not because it's not built in Germany - then you might have a case. But something tells me you won't succeed in that search.

I don't have a "case"

I was expressing how I personally feel about it.

[cptobvious]

Hey guys,

At the risk of wading into a topic that evokes very strong emotions, I do think perhaps we’re all slightly talking past each other. It seems to me that we could perhaps disaggregate some of the issues in this topic:

1. Advanced manufacturing processes - I think a lot of posts are touching upon the idea that when it comes to modern manufacturing, what ultimately matters are processes and systems. Location of your manufacturing plant will depend upon whether conditions on the ground in a given locale match up to what you are trying to achieve. For example, I've actually taken part in location decisions where the decision to locate a plant in Mexico versus the U.S. was entirely driven by willingness of the workforce to adopt lean manufacturing techniques - Mexico plant would be new, workforce was willing to train in new techniques, while the U.S. workforce wasn't. Everyone thought that decision was "we're going to low cost Mexico." Nope. It had nothing to do with the cost of labor. It had everything to do with processes and systems. So, I think the different folks posting about this are correct in that, contrary to popular media accounts, labor makes up a relatively small portion of overall costs in advanced manufacturing these days; meanwhile, your ability to do just-in-time, pull-systems, etc., etc., are SIGNIFICANTLY more impactful to your bottom line. In most cases these days, with advanced, well-thought-out location strategies, hourly labor cost really doesn't factor much into the decision - at least, not in the location strategy projects I've been a part of over the years

2. Quality - A lot of posts presuppose that locating in a lower cost geography necessarily means lower quality. In some cases, that may be true, particularly for very simple, low complexity products, like pots and pans or sheet metal or whatever. However, from what I've seen with regard to advanced manufacturing and assembly, again, productivity and quality derive from highly specific processes and systems. Again, I go back to lean manufacturing - it's a holistic approach to manufacturing and it doesn't matter whether you use German, American, Mexican, or Martian personnel. If you master lean, you get high quality production. If you don't master lean, doesn't matter how highly paid or highly knowledgeable your workforce is, you get crap quality and reliability. (Here's looking at you, America! Sorry. Couldn't help that little dig. Ha!) So, I do get that the general perception is that going to a low cost geography is all about nickels and dimes, but again, given how complex and advanced auto manufacturing is these days, I suspect the quality will not depend upon that one factor - it's really all about whether the manufacturer can ensure adherence to a powerful system and process

3. Brand perception - Now, a lot of folks are saying, "Heck no, I don't want a vehicle manufactured in a low cost geography - it tarnishes the brand." Here, I believe that sentiment probably has to do with brand perception. That makes sense. We, as primates, are highly attuned to signals of prestige and standing. And, for various reasons, "German precision" has very high status associated with it. So, yes, perhaps manufacturing in Mexico does diminish the brand. But, over time, as a given manufacturer and a given locale can prove quality, the brand perception does change over time. Remember when "made in Japan" was derogatory? Then, low status connotations moved to "made in Taiwan." Then, it became "made in Korea." Then, it became "made in China." But, by the same token, my iPhone XS Max is "made in China" and it's pretty darn sweet. It changes over time as each locale proves its ability to deliver quality

4. Heritage - This one... I'm not sure what to say. I guess this is one that I don't understand very well, so perhaps I shouldn't comment at all. My problem is that I'm a first generation immigrant, without any sense of history or sentiment or legacy, etc., etc. So, I think maybe the idea of "heritage" is just completely alien to me!

Anyway, I suspect that we're all expressing different opinions on this topic, because we all have different preferences. For some, brand connotations matter most, in which case, having our high end car manufactured in Mexico does take away from the consumer experience. For others, quality is of highest import, and there I suspect we'll have to "wait and see" if BMW can get it right in their new locale.

It's funny, but in my work life, I learned about all this stuff, and applied it helping Fortune 500 companies with their strategies, and Toyota became my absolute favorite, due to their having pioneered some remarkable processes. Highest possible quality ever. But... I could NEVER get myself to buy a Toyota! Ha! I now have an obsession with Porsche, because I belatedly realized that they have actually become a world leader in lean processes. The ability to mate quality with performance! Now that's something I can get behind!

http://cavqm.blogspot.com/2013/06/po...uring-and.html

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Really? So why didn't Harry's for instance buy a chinese Razor manufacturing plant and advertise made in China??? I'm sure it would have been cheaper for them.

Answer: Because that wouldn't have helped them sell shit.

I have nothing against Mexico, China etc etc... but I still want my German car made in Germany for ED pickup, My Scotch from Scotland, My HK Pistol from Germany, My French wine from France, etc etc etc........

I almost forgot our glass from Murano

x2!

Maybe BMW underestimates the passion that picking up a real M car from a real German factory and driving it on real German roads - - like it was designed to do - - creates a passionate, dedicated fan base that buys BMWs over and over again.

Produce the regular 2 series in Mexico. I don't care. Produce Ms in Germany, PLEASE.

Reminds me of when the "brand engineers" from Johnson & Johnson took over General Motors and drove it into the ground in the 80s. They forgot their base.

Don't forget your enthusiast base, BMW.

[BMWGirlFL]

This video, starting about 2:20, mentions daily distribution of 620 vehicles (about 175,000 annually) & production for a global market. US 3er + 2er = <50%

[1mm2]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

x2!

Maybe BMW underestimates the passion that picking up a real M car from a real German factory and driving it on real German roads - - like it was designed to do - - creates a passionate, dedicated fan base that buys BMWs over and over again.

Don't underestimate the Mexican Delivery experience...

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

Having purchased a Mexican built VW Jetta

Many years ago I owned a Passat built in Germany, and I can tell you that your problem was with VW, not Mexico. In my case, the car needed three turbos and a turbo-related recall, all front suspension arms were gradually replaced in the first 80K, plus a bunch of smaller issues I can't remember exactly anymore.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by BMWGirlFL

This video, starting about 2:20, mentions daily distribution of 620 vehicles (about 175,000 annually) & production for a global market. US 3er + 2er = <50%

This plant is currently building approximately 200 cars a day, virtually all of them US 330i. But the plans are to have it produce almost all higher volume versions of G20 for all markets (focusing on the Americas), and then be the source of all G42s worldwide.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by 1mm2

Don't underestimate the Mexican Delivery experience...

I thought everyone here loved driving triple digits with their friends "in Mexico" .

[ContactPatch]

Mexico has less beer holidays than Germany, so they wont be as many "beer cars." However, rumor has it that they will only allow factory workers to drink Heineken during their breaks instead of Corona.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by ASAP

100%...

It comes down to over estimating future earnings targets and later having to do things at all costs to meet them.

Bmw already has only 2 core platforms

Outsourcing manufacturing to other countries

Focusing on the Chinese markets that is already showing slowed growth

FWIW, it's still not quite Toyota which spends 0 money on engine and tranny developments and cant develop their own sports car whilst being the largest car manufacturer in the world.

Sports cars for Toyota are low volume and low return products, no point in sinking money there to develop cars when Subaru and BMW can do it for them.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by 1mm2

Don't underestimate the Mexican Delivery experience...

Pick up your car and then get kidnapped and shot on a deserted Mexican highway, what could be more romantic?

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

F that, I'm out.

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Pick up your car and then get kidnapped and shot on a deserted Mexican highway, what could be more romantic?

Open your mind. Pay respect.

[amancuso]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

Having purchased a Mexican built VW Jetta for my daughter, I can speak with direct knowledge about endless mechanical and electrical and build quality issues, including:

--Complete transmission explosion and the need for a total replacement just 1,000 miles after the warranty expired
--Endless electrical issues
--Door lock failure
--Headlight failure
--Oil leaks at 12,000 miles
--Creaks, squeaks, moans and groans from day 1.

I am not alone. I have several friends who've owned Mexican built Golfs and Jettas with similar issues.

A German designed car, built in Mexico, with serious build quality issues.

Too bad BMW is heading in the same direction.

I can't agree with you there. I owned quite a few Mexican assembled VWs since 2014. putting 75K on one of them. Never had one reliability issue with the cars at all. Owned 1.8TSI 2.0TSI and 1.4TSI all didn't give any issues at all. The only thing I can complain about was the lack of high quality interior materials in them, but then again when you're buying a nicely equipped car for 20K out the door, you really can't complain.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Tag

Aside from EU delivery not being an option, don't get the negativity of the car being built in Mexico. All BMWs are built the same in any of its factories across the world. They have a brand and reputation to uphold. So, get over it.

I understand the euro delivery thing. That is a huge part of the experience and if not an option. On being built in Mexico not sure about bmw but here is my experience. I have owned 4 German built bmws and they were all unreliable cars compared to Japanese cars I owned. I bought a German built 2008 VW GTI and we had all sorts of electrical and engine leak and oil consumption problems. We traded in for a Mexican built 2017 VW GTI and have not had a single issue in 2 years as 22k miles. So that's my Mexican built experience. My mom has a Mexican built 2013 VW Jetta GLI and only issue in 6 years and 70k miles is one coil going out and when I took it out appears to have come from Europe . Finally my best friend born in Hamburg and a Porsche fan VW hater checked out 2017 GTI and wasn't able to see anything that made the fit and finish appear to be less than out German model. Neither can I and I love German cars. I also have my biases but If a Mexican built M2 is cheaper and as good as the German one that might not be so bad. This reminds me of when California wines were winning awards but people were saying but they have to come from France to be great!

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by nachob

I understand the euro delivery thing. That is a huge part of the experience and if not an option. On being built in Mexico not sure about bmw but here is my experience. I have owned 4 German built bmws and they were all unreliable cars compared to Japanese cars I owned. I bought a German built 2008 VW GTI and we had all sorts of electrical and engine leak and oil consumption problems. We traded in for a Mexican built 2017 VW GTI and have not had a single issue in 2 years as 22k miles. So that's my Mexican built experience. My mom has a Mexican built 2013 VW Jetta GLI and only issue in 6 years and 70k miles is one coil going out and when I took it out appears to have come from Europe . Finally my best friend born in Hamburg and a Porsche fan VW hater checked out 2017 GTI and wasn't able to see anything that made the fit and finish appear to be less than out German model. Neither can I and I love German cars. I also have my biases but If a Mexican built M2 is cheaper and as good as the German one that might not be so bad. This reminds me of when California wines were winning awards but people were saying but they have to come from France to be great!

California wines are shit compared to French wine. Sorry

[Tag]

Originally Posted by nachob

I understand the euro delivery thing. That is a huge part of the experience and if not an option. On being built in Mexico not sure about bmw but here is my experience. I have owned 4 German built bmws and they were all unreliable cars compared to Japanese cars I owned. I bought a German built 2008 VW GTI and we had all sorts of electrical and engine leak and oil consumption problems. We traded in for a Mexican built 2017 VW GTI and have not had a single issue in 2 years as 22k miles. So that's my Mexican built experience. My mom has a Mexican built 2013 VW Jetta GLI and only issue in 6 years and 70k miles is one coil going out and when I took it out appears to have come from Europe . Finally my best friend born in Hamburg and a Porsche fan VW hater checked out 2017 GTI and wasn't able to see anything that made the fit and finish appear to be less than out German model. Neither can I and I love German cars. I also have my biases but If a Mexican built M2 is cheaper and as good as the German one that might not be so bad. This reminds me of when California wines were winning awards but people were saying but they have to come from France to be great!

I'd attribute your experience with reliability to auto manufacturers getting better at making more reliable cars and having better QA. The market has also changed a lot, auto manufacturers share many of the same components that are outsourced to 3rd party manufacturers. Airbag recalls or HPFP recalls ring a bell? The next M2 will not be cheaper, trust me.

Point is just because a BMW is built somewhere else in the world it's not going to be any better or worse for that matter. These are multi billion dollar corporations that for lack of a better word don't fuck around.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Tag

I'd attribute your experience with reliability to auto manufacturers getting better at making more reliable cars and having better QA. The market has also changed a lot, auto manufacturers share many of the same components that are outsourced to 3rd party manufacturers. Airbag recalls or HPFP recalls ring a bell? The next M2 will not be cheaper, trust me.
Point is just because a BMW is built somewhere else in the world it's not going to be any better or worse for that matter. These are multi billion dollar corporations that for lack of a better word don't fuck around.

See two videos of the state-of-the-art BMW factory in my earlier comment.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by nachob

If a Mexican built M2 is cheaper and as good as the German one that might not be so bad.

That's the thing though; the car is not going get any cheaper. There is no way in hell after the M2C started at 60k, will it actually go down in price, only climb with inflation.

This is a move to keep their shareholders happy, with no real benefit to consumers except maybe with a shorter delivery time to the US.

Just like how BMW eliminated the passenger-dimming side mirror, grab handles, 4 year all inclusive maintenance, ect, it's all in attempt to save a buck.

I get their position and I don't completely knock them for shifting assembly to reduce overhead and increase profits but that doesn't mean I have to like it, since I'm the end-user.

[TemjinX2]

to pay devils advocate...from BMW point of view...apple products are on average 10-17% more expensive then their competitors and their products are manufacturered and assembled in china.

They probably figure if apple can get away with that...they can too.

on to the other side of that...the german people are known around the world for their attention to detail and very strict methodical workmanship. Its part of their culture and people are willing to pay a premium for that.

i'm not saying mexican workers cannot do what a $60hr german worker is doing but i doubt it at $13hr. Even for mexico standards the mexican BMW workers are under paid.

you can give everyone the same receipt for a cake and it'll still taste different depending on who made it.

My personal opinion i agree the regular BMWs can be made in mexico but the M car should be made in germany.

In my personal opinon, no i would not pay $60-70k made in mexico M car. Thats my personal preference. Cars are more of a emotional long term purchase versus disposable electronics.

I probably just pay off and keep my og m2 and then get a tesla or cayman next