[BMW M Power Mexico]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

No it wouldn't. The issue of outsource to build overseas is a loss of quality control. It happens with all industries and products. A review will no capture the negative impacts.

Really? How about a JD Power quality study? Do you know that Mexican plants have lots of times beaten their North American counterparts (including Canadian ones BTW) for quality results?

I guess everything you own is built in developed countries?

In the end, prejudice is your right. If you end up driving what in your imagination is a better car (because of country of assembly) but in reality is by all objective measures an inferior one, more power to you.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by BMW M Power Mexico

Really? How about a JD Power quality study? Do you know that Mexican plants have lots of times beaten their North American counterparts (including Canadian ones BTW) for quality results?

I guess everything you own is built in developed countries?

In the end, prejudice is your right. If you end up driving what in your imagination is a better car (because of country of assembly) but in reality is by all objective measures an inferior one, more power to you.

I put my money where my mouth is, and id say almost everything is coming from the country or origin, or rather where the development started, and was proven to be successful before going overseas.

Being an educated buyer does not make me prejudice. I know you may have a personal agenda with that remark, but im not waiving one flag from one country over another. In some cases the best country for production is Sweden, Canada, Japan or the USA.

I have personal experience working close with a product manager that was responsible for moving the manufacturing of high end product originally made and designed in the USA to China. As previously mentioned it wasn't un heard of that 30% of the product that arrived did not meet spec after that move. A team of people needed to check every product that came through to catch the errors. I asked what happens when stuff slips through and he said "it woudn't matter if it all slipped through. We'd will still make more money even if we had to replace all 30% of the defective product"

I'm a big skier/snowboarder and used to only buy Hestra gloves that were originally design and made in Sweden. As soon as they made their stuff in China I noticed immediately QC issues such as stitching coming apart, bigger variances in colours that should be the same etc.

Remember Webber BBQs once a proud american made product? Now all made in china you can tell its simply a cheaper product.

Classe Audio used to be hand made in Canada, before being sent ver to china. I have stuff thats 15 years old that has never had a single issue vs the stuff 4 years old after being made in china that has needed to be replaced twice. This is stuff that costs 5-10k per piece!

As I said I put my money where my mouth is and pay the premium when ever I can. Dishwashers, vacuums, furniture, lighting, electronics this list goes on and on. I never get the made in china (or overseas equivalent) when purchasing. Ill never support the outsourced option, and this comes from experience. I tend to research and lean towards buying best in class, so I do research before making a purchase.

On the issue of "prejudice" i will come clean that there is an element in my buying decisions where I don't want to send my money to countries where I disagree with their human/animal rights standards, or general respect for our planet. If that makes me prejudice then so be it.

[Bigiggs]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

I put my money where my mouth is, and id say almost everything is coming from the country or origin, or rather where the development started, and was proven to be successful before going overseas.

Being an educated buyer does not make me prejudice. I know you may have a personal agenda with that remark, but im not waiving one flag from one country over another. In some cases the best country for production is Sweden, Canada, Japan or the USA.

I have personal experience working close with a product manager that was responsible for moving the manufacturing of high end product originally made and designed in the USA to China. As previously mentioned it wasn't un heard of that 30% of the product that arrived did not meet spec after that move. A team of people needed to check every product that came through to catch the errors. I asked what happens when stuff slips through and he said "it woudn't matter if it all slipped through. We'd will still make more money even if we had to replace all 30% of the defective product"

I'm a big skier/snowboarder and used to only buy Hestra gloves that were originally design and made in Sweden. As soon as they made their stuff in China I noticed immediately QC issues such as stitching coming apart, bigger variances in colours that should be the same etc.

Remember Webber BBQs once a proud american made product? Now all made in china you can tell its simply a cheaper product.

Classe Audio used to be hand made in Canada, before being sent ver to china. I have stuff thats 15 years old that has never had a single issue vs the stuff 4 years old after being made in china that has needed to be replaced twice. This is stuff that costs 5-10k per piece!

As I said I put my money where my mouth is and pay the premium when ever I can. Dishwashers, vacuums, furniture, lighting, electronics this list goes on and on. I never get the made in china (or overseas equivalent) when purchasing. Ill never support the outsourced option, and this comes from experience. I tend to research and lean towards buying best in class, so I do research before making a purchase.

On the issue of "prejudice" i will come clean that there is an element in my buying decisions where I don't want to send my money to countries where I disagree with their human/animal rights standards, or general respect for our planet. If that makes me prejudice then so be it.

Well said

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

M Performance vehicles substitute models that would be considered not only taboo in some circles but also provide substitute vehicle choice without tax penalties. Which is why 550d and X5 and X6 M50d thrive in these countries.

The M760Li is a substitute for an M7. But it is still a very powerful car.

The new X3M and X4M will be full BMW M Vehicles as are the X5M and X6M.

It's all perspective. Because I don't view these cars as Full M models at all. It's just another way for BMW to slap an M badge on a family hauler with more HP and charge more $$$ for it.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

I put my money where my mouth is, and id say almost everything is coming from the country or origin, or rather where the development started, and was proven to be successful before going overseas.

Being an educated buyer does not make me prejudice. I know you may have a personal agenda with that remark, but im not waiving one flag from one country over another. In some cases the best country for production is Sweden, Canada, Japan or the USA.

I have personal experience working close with a product manager that was responsible for moving the manufacturing of high end product originally made and designed in the USA to China. As previously mentioned it wasn't un heard of that 30% of the product that arrived did not meet spec after that move. A team of people needed to check every product that came through to catch the errors. I asked what happens when stuff slips through and he said "it woudn't matter if it all slipped through. We'd will still make more money even if we had to replace all 30% of the defective product"

I'm a big skier/snowboarder and used to only buy Hestra gloves that were originally design and made in Sweden. As soon as they made their stuff in China I noticed immediately QC issues such as stitching coming apart, bigger variances in colours that should be the same etc.

Remember Webber BBQs once a proud american made product? Now all made in china you can tell its simply a cheaper product.

Classe Audio used to be hand made in Canada, before being sent ver to china. I have stuff thats 15 years old that has never had a single issue vs the stuff 4 years old after being made in china that has needed to be replaced twice. This is stuff that costs 5-10k per piece!

As I said I put my money where my mouth is and pay the premium when ever I can. Dishwashers, vacuums, furniture, lighting, electronics this list goes on and on. I never get the made in china (or overseas equivalent) when purchasing. Ill never support the outsourced option, and this comes from experience. I tend to research and lean towards buying best in class, so I do research before making a purchase.

On the issue of "prejudice" i will come clean that there is an element in my buying decisions where I don't want to send my money to countries where I disagree with their human/animal rights standards, or general respect for our planet. If that makes me prejudice then so be it.

Bravo. Good post. I'm in complete agreement. I'm a big skier also. Wifey and I have a bunch of Arc'terck gear that was bullet proof when it was manufactured in Canada. Now it's of course made in China and quality has suffered. It's all about the $$$$

[BMW M Power Mexico]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

I put my money where my mouth is, and id say almost everything is coming from the country or origin, or rather where the development started, and was proven to be successful before going overseas.

Being an educated buyer does not make me prejudice. I know you may have a personal agenda with that remark, but im not waiving one flag from one country over another. In some cases the best country for production is Sweden, Canada, Japan or the USA.

I have personal experience working close with a product manager that was responsible for moving the manufacturing of high end product originally made and designed in the USA to China. As previously mentioned it wasn't un heard of that 30% of the product that arrived did not meet spec after that move. A team of people needed to check every product that came through to catch the errors. I asked what happens when stuff slips through and he said "it woudn't matter if it all slipped through. We'd will still make more money even if we had to replace all 30% of the defective product"

I'm a big skier/snowboarder and used to only buy Hestra gloves that were originally design and made in Sweden. As soon as they made their stuff in China I noticed immediately QC issues such as stitching coming apart, bigger variances in colours that should be the same etc.

Remember Webber BBQs once a proud american made product? Now all made in china you can tell its simply a cheaper product.

Classe Audio used to be hand made in Canada, before being sent ver to china. I have stuff thats 15 years old that has never had a single issue vs the stuff 4 years old after being made in china that has needed to be replaced twice. This is stuff that costs 5-10k per piece!

As I said I put my money where my mouth is and pay the premium when ever I can. Dishwashers, vacuums, furniture, lighting, electronics this list goes on and on. I never get the made in china (or overseas equivalent) when purchasing. Ill never support the outsourced option, and this comes from experience. I tend to research and lean towards buying best in class, so I do research before making a purchase.

On the issue of "prejudice" i will come clean that there is an element in my buying decisions where I don't want to send my money to countries where I disagree with their human/animal rights standards, or general respect for our planet. If that makes me prejudice then so be it.

Ok, so your anecdotal evidence with an unethical product manager is proof positive that BMW won't be able to keep their standards of quality in their Mexican plant. Gotcha. That's educated.

The premise is IF quality is proven the same (done by many other manufacturers who build in Mexico), AND the car is superior to it's alternatives (done by BMW), you'd still not buy it only because your "knowledge" about how entire countries vary in quality of manufacturing. Yeah, that's prejudice. And bigotry. No one is asking you to buy an inferior product. If the Mexican plant does indeed turn out an inferior product, by all means buy something else. I'd do the same.

Wouldn't you be an "educated buyer" if you objectively chose the best product, regardless of country of origin? Your personal anecdotes have absolutely no bearing on how the automotive industry works.

[BMW M Power Mexico]

Originally Posted by Master Yoda

Bravo. Good post. I'm in complete agreement. I'm a big skier also. Wifey and I have a bunch of Arc'terck gear that was bullet proof when it was manufactured in Canada. Now it's of course made in China and quality has suffered. It's all about the $$$$

BMW has set up excellent quality operations in many countries in the world. But because a completely unrelated ski products company fucked up in moving production to China (not Mexico), that's "evidence" enough for you to never buy a Mexican made BMW.

Ok. Maybe skiers get hit a lot in the head?

[pz619]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

I already do pay the premium? We all do.

I don't recall getting a discount for a South Africa build on my 3 series. Nor has this effected the resale value or quality in the least. Can anyone tell by looking at a car where it was built? Or driving it for that matter?

Fact is if the people of Mexico are setup to succeed with the right equipment, training, and materials they will produce a car that is equal to that of anywhere else. The onus is on BMW to make this happen and there is no reason to believe they won't. They already done it other nations. Not to belabor the point, but this is mass manufacturing, not an art form.

[pbjjj]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

I put my money where my mouth is, and id say almost everything is coming from the country or origin, or rather where the development started, and was proven to be successful before going overseas.

Being an educated buyer does not make me prejudice. I know you may have a personal agenda with that remark, but im not waiving one flag from one country over another. In some cases the best country for production is Sweden, Canada, Japan or the USA.

I have personal experience working close with a product manager that was responsible for moving the manufacturing of high end product originally made and designed in the USA to China. As previously mentioned it wasn't un heard of that 30% of the product that arrived did not meet spec after that move. A team of people needed to check every product that came through to catch the errors. I asked what happens when stuff slips through and he said "it woudn't matter if it all slipped through. We'd will still make more money even if we had to replace all 30% of the defective product"

I'm a big skier/snowboarder and used to only buy Hestra gloves that were originally design and made in Sweden. As soon as they made their stuff in China I noticed immediately QC issues such as stitching coming apart, bigger variances in colours that should be the same etc.

Remember Webber BBQs once a proud american made product? Now all made in china you can tell its simply a cheaper product.

Classe Audio used to be hand made in Canada, before being sent ver to china. I have stuff thats 15 years old that has never had a single issue vs the stuff 4 years old after being made in china that has needed to be replaced twice. This is stuff that costs 5-10k per piece!

As I said I put my money where my mouth is and pay the premium when ever I can. Dishwashers, vacuums, furniture, lighting, electronics this list goes on and on. I never get the made in china (or overseas equivalent) when purchasing. Ill never support the outsourced option, and this comes from experience. I tend to research and lean towards buying best in class, so I do research before making a purchase.

On the issue of "prejudice" i will come clean that there is an element in my buying decisions where I don't want to send my money to countries where I disagree with their human/animal rights standards, or general respect for our planet. If that makes me prejudice then so be it.

I have to say that you have presented a strong argument in this posting, and much of it is true from the consumer perspective. Growing up in a manufacturing family, I had similar experience with Chinese factory management. Our product quality initially decreased as we moved our manufacturing to China. The key to address the problem was to be hands-on and to find someone who cares about quality as much as we did to manage the quality control. Once we were able to do that, our quality was back on track.

The product quality variance can be most obvious in hand-made products because the quality for those products do vary depending on the experience and skill of the workforce. In BMW's case though, based on my tour of the Munich plant, I can say over 80% of the 3 series is built by robots, from windshield installment to color painting with no human intervention. It's such an eye opener for me coming from a manufacturing plant that uses 100% human to make products. From what I saw I think majority of the BMW employees at that plant are robotic engineers who can program and fix the robots but would be at lost if they have to manually put a BMW car together. In today's automobile manufacturing plants that can pretty much be a showcase for robotic ingenuity, does the country of origin really matters? Do the same robots that perform same tasks function differently just because now the robots are in Mexico instead of Germany?

I am sure in the beginning there will be unforeseen issues that need to be addressed. I am a true believer of a robust quality control process being the utmost significant factor in success. BMW needs to drive the quality control standard to the same level as their other plants in Germany and in South-Africa. I hope BMW is more than 100% invested to make the new Mexico plant successful, especially with all the negative press and bias that are associated with Mexico-made cars so far.

[tturedraider]

Mexico City booming tech article - https://creator.wework.com/city-guid...ing-3-reasons/

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by BMW M Power Mexico

BMW has set up excellent quality operations in many countries in the world. But because a completely unrelated ski products company fucked up in moving production to China (not Mexico), that's "evidence" enough for you to never buy a Mexican made BMW.

Ok. Maybe skiers get hit a lot in the head?

Easy Killer. I haven't insulted you in this thread. No need to be hostile. Many of us wouldn't buy a Mexican BMW simple as that. I wouldn't buy one from South Africa, China, or India either. I pay a premium for a car that was designed and manufactured in Germany. When that is not possible I will look elsewhere for a vehicle.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by Master Yoda

Bravo. Good post. I'm in complete agreement. I'm a big skier also. Wifey and I have a bunch of Arc'terck gear that was bullet proof when it was manufactured in Canada. Now it's of course made in China and quality has suffered. It's all about the $$$$

I agree about arc'terck. Same thing happened with lululemon.

Check out their Veilance line. Still hand made in canada. Pricey, but awesome.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

I agree about arc'terck. Same thing happened with lululemon.

Check out their Veilance line. Still hand made in canada. Pricey, but awesome.

Cool. I'll check it out

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by BMW M Power Mexico

The premise is IF quality is proven the same (done by many other manufacturers who build in Mexico), AND the car is superior to it's alternatives (done by BMW), you'd still not buy it only because your "knowledge" about how entire countries vary in quality of manufacturing. Yeah, that's prejudice. And bigotry. No one is asking you to buy an inferior product. If the Mexican plant does indeed turn out an inferior product, by all means buy something else. I'd do the same.
.

Again, what you call prejudice I call educated. My decision has come from many many experiences of being burned by the poor quality overseas equivalent.

Is it possible a BMW car comes off the assembly line in mexico as germany? Sure, but im not will to take that chance. I wouldnt do it with a $1,000 BBQ, or $250 pair of ski gloves, so I sure as hell wouldnt do it with a $100,000 car.

Im prejudice against outsourcing production at the expense of quality control for the sake of bigger margins with zero benefit passed down to the consumer.

Ill vote with my wallet every time.

[BMW M Power Mexico]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Again, what you call prejudice I call educated. My decision has come from many many experiences of being burned by the poor quality overseas equivalent.

Is it possible a BMW car comes off the assembly line in mexico as germany? Sure, but im not will to take that chance. I wouldnt do it with a $1,000 BBQ, or $250 pair of ski gloves, so I sure as hell wouldnt do it with a $100,000 car.

Im prejudice against outsourcing production at the expense of quality control for the sake of bigger margins with zero benefit passed down to the consumer.

Ill vote with my wallet every time.

Prejudice and educated are different words that have clear dictionary definitions.

If you are presented with a product identical in all aspects except for the place it was built and that drives your decision then it's prejudice, not education. But man - whatever, like you said, it's your money. Enjoy whatever you get. It may drive less well and/or have objectively less quality but you'll be happy that you bought "german made".

[BMW M Power Mexico]

Originally Posted by Master Yoda

Easy Killer. I haven't insulted you in this thread. No need to be hostile. Many of us wouldn't buy a Mexican BMW simple as that. I wouldn't buy one from South Africa, China, or India either. I pay a premium for a car that was designed and manufactured in Germany. When that is not possible I will look elsewhere for a vehicle.

Sorry about that, some very offensive and ignorant things about the place I live in have been said in this thread. But not by you, so cool.

To each his own. I'll buy the car that gives me the best driving experience for my personal taste and needs. I couldn't care less where it was made. The manufacturer answers to me as their customer, not the place of assembly.

For example, I don't care if Volvo is now Chinese owned (love the XC90) or that Jaguar is Indian.

I am just amazed that given a hypothetical "identical product, different place of assembly" a lot here will "never buy from X country."

[BwoodBMW]

hmmm... sounds like I can still pick up an M3 in Germany so I'm all good.

And by the way my German produced M3 squeaks and rattles and creaks and groans and makes all sorts of funky noises that my Mexican produced VW Jetta never did back in like 2001. That Jetta was literally rock solid, I think everybody needs to relax.

[BMW M Power Mexico]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Mexico City booming tech article - https://creator.wework.com/city-guid...ing-3-reasons/

Thanks for that. We definitely have an international image problem (especially in the US) that goes far beyond our actual problems.

I can't and won't "just accept it" if I can have a say.

I am part of that tech scene as a matter of fact.

Like I said on my first post on this thread: I am very proud of this country and working here to make it better within my abilities. And it saddens me / angers me to find tons of mostly uninformed opinions about Mexico dismissing an entire country (and neighbour!) here.

[Malloy]

Originally Posted by BwoodBMW

And by the way my German produced M3 squeaks and rattles and creaks and groans and makes all sorts of funky noises that my Mexican produced VW Jetta never did back in like 2001. That Jetta was literally rock solid, I think everybody needs to relax.

Funny you say that. My E46 M3 and F31 have had significantly more issues than the Mk4 24v VR6 Jetta that I bought new. Mechanical as well as QOL.

I love everything about my F31 other than the reliability issues I've had with it so far. Horns failed, rear gate and center console have squeaks that can not be fixed and the main nav screen & control modules failed. In 9 mos I have the option to return the lease or buy it out. Despite loving what the car delivers, I fear the long term running costs.

Up until ~5 years ago I've generally had Japanese daily drivers and literally loaded 100s of thousands of miles on them with no issues. (TL, FX, 4Runner) The IS-F is looking really good right now.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by BMW M Power Mexico

Thanks for that. We definitely have an international image problem (especially in the US) that goes far beyond our actual problems.

I can't and won't "just accept it" if I can have a say.

I am part of that tech scene as a matter of fact.

Like I said on my first post on this thread: I am very proud of this country and working here to make it better within my abilities. And it saddens me / angers me to find tons of mostly uninformed opinions about Mexico dismissing an entire country (and neighbour!) here.

It's not about Mexico, it's about not Germany.

[snipe]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

It's not about Mexico, it's about not Germany.

So where can we find your similar complaints about BMW producing cars in America (with the risk of ending up with cars just as crappy as any Dodge or Oldsmobile) or the engine factory in Graz (Austria)?

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Bigiggs

It would obviously be an upgrade. I am in between an M3, P-Car, or C63.

Sidenote, I would be keeping the 135is (love that car) and I will still keep to my original statement of not buying any premium car not produced from its original home nation.

If it's a new C63 then strike that off. The US/CAN market cars are built in Alabama.