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      11-08-2019, 06:23 PM   #67
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I kind of want to drive it. Seems like they found their way to replicating a 1990's experience in a modern car. I don't know that I want to own it, but I wouldn't mind taking it for a spin to see if it brings back some GS-R memories or some such (not in must-rev-to-get-anything fashion, just in the general analog feel category). I've bitched about a few of the reviews here and there, and I feel utterly justified in most of my feelings about most of them.

The M2C reviews have been all over the place...high rank in one, out of the field in another. I spent months in a slump about my car starting in the Spring and ended up spending a bundle to wake up the audio feedback a bit with it. I'm happier with it now, but I'm also at the point where I mostly agree with the devil's-bargain comments in this review.

Fast cars have gotten too fast and too good, and they've lost something.

I modified the exhaust, not to fix the exhaust note that most folk think is so bad as I'm honestly not that particular with exhaust note (I want my car to sound like my car, not some other car I heard at some point or used to have), I just needed a bit more feedback. I'm not even close to wanting to actually performance mod this car since the roads and traffic are so limiting nowadays and even moderately quick cars are illegal by the end of second gear (or so).

I think that Road and Track ran across a well-sorted car that you can push to its limits on a public road and fell in love with it. This was a slow-car-fast win. And I get it.
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      11-09-2019, 01:49 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bri1042 View Post
I kind of want to drive it. Seems like they found their way to replicating a 1990's experience in a modern car. I don't know that I want to own it, but I wouldn't mind taking it for a spin to see if it brings back some GS-R memories or some such (not in must-rev-to-get-anything fashion, just in the general analog feel category). I've bitched about a few of the reviews here and there, and I feel utterly justified in most of my feelings about most of them.

The M2C reviews have been all over the place...high rank in one, out of the field in another. I spent months in a slump about my car starting in the Spring and ended up spending a bundle to wake up the audio feedback a bit with it. I'm happier with it now, but I'm also at the point where I mostly agree with the devil's-bargain comments in this review.

Fast cars have gotten too fast and too good, and they've lost something.

I modified the exhaust, not to fix the exhaust note that most folk think is so bad as I'm honestly not that particular with exhaust note (I want my car to sound like my car, not some other car I heard at some point or used to have), I just needed a bit more feedback. I'm not even close to wanting to actually performance mod this car since the roads and traffic are so limiting nowadays and even moderately quick cars are illegal by the end of second gear (or so).

I think that Road and Track ran across a well-sorted car that you can push to its limits on a public road and fell in love with it. This was a slow-car-fast win. And I get it.
Everyone wants a track car that can also daily. But the practical answer is exactly "slow-car-fast".
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      11-09-2019, 05:27 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Every Porsche I've driven since their switch to EPS has precise and somewhat weighted steering, but it's a far cry from how communicative and stiff the hydraulic racks were. I cannot speak to the very high end Turbo, GT4, etc. models.
Agreed, and mostly true for the GT models as well that I've driven (GT3.1 and .2, GT3 RS.1 and.2, GT4).

All of them are crap compared to the base 2003 Boxster I had, any hydraulic steering from Porsche going back to the 80's really. I haven't driven any earlier Porsches but I suspect that amazing feel would go back all the way to origin.

So the right alignment helps a bit in my M3, and having wheels as light as possible. None of the modern stuff has real feedback, and the journalists who pretend there is some huge difference between all the EPS systems are smoking some highly illegal stuff.

IMO.
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      11-09-2019, 05:31 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
If only they knew it is the same suspension, steering rack, etc. Sometimes I think these journalists look for differences that donít exist.
The vast majority of journalists are copy and paste hacks.
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      11-10-2019, 09:27 AM   #71
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Make Them Fun Again

The M2 is by far the most fun BMW M in the line up today. To have R&T say it is clinical and wanting in connection or involvement is a sign of the times from the brand that had fun in its middle name.

AMG, Alfa and now HMC N have demonstrated that engagement and interaction works for todayís buyer. I hope M dials up this factor in the upcoming M3/M4 and shuts its critics up for all our sake.
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      11-10-2019, 12:58 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Agreed, and mostly true for the GT models as well that I've driven (GT3.1 and .2, GT3 RS.1 and.2, GT4).

All of them are crap compared to the base 2003 Boxster I had, any hydraulic steering from Porsche going back to the 80's really. I haven't driven any earlier Porsches but I suspect that amazing feel would go back all the way to origin.

So the right alignment helps a bit in my M3, and having wheels as light as possible. None of the modern stuff has real feedback, and the journalists who pretend there is some huge difference between all the EPS systems are smoking some highly illegal stuff.

IMO.
The "journalists" who think EPS are fine are total liars and/or losers with a vested interest to only sing praises.

Needless to say, I'm a bit depressed when it comes to the state of modern cars. The dominance of tech in society, emergence of China/Middle East (and their differing tastes), and strict emissions regulations have mostly stripped cars of providing a visceral driving experience. People care more about useless "features" in their cars now.
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      11-10-2019, 03:51 PM   #73
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Well modern BMW is faster but a lot less feel, call that engineering progress for the PlayStation generation (point and drive, you're going to be fine 90% of the time...)
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      11-11-2019, 04:15 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustChris View Post
I'm not certain how many but in that test grouping doesn't ever car bar the Lotus have EPS?
The McLaren is hydraulic. Every McLaren is.

P.S. I've never yet driven *any* EPS car with acceptably good feedback from the wheel.
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      11-11-2019, 06:59 PM   #75
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Hey everyone, it only took us two decades to figure out that modern cars are numb! They should be embarrassed by that article.

Nothing against their choice as I've never driven that car. What's fun in a quick test might not be fun after three months, however. The M2c is pretty darn fun for a modern car. Did they keep it in efficiency mode?

As for steering, are they driving the same car? It's not that bad. BTW, there's MUCH more to steering than just hydraulic vs EPS. And the shifter that they actually praise? I hate the shifter. Easiest shifter to money shift that I've ever driven.
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      11-12-2019, 08:25 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supralex View Post
I hate the EPS on my m2 and it's really a shame because I also have a Honda S2000 and its day and night

Honda did this EPS back in 1999 and it's better than any modern eps that I drove
So EPS can be good you just need to copy Honda for once
Yep, I agree -- have owned several S2000s and it boggles my mind that Honda figured out EPS all those years ago and BMW still struggles with it. The S2000 was one of the earliest production vehicles to have EPS and it was good from the beginning.

I do think BMW is getting better. The G-generation vehicles have much improved steering feel and lost a lot of the numbness that plagued earlier generations. The EPS in my X3 M40i is noticeably better than the setup in my M2C.
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      11-13-2019, 02:30 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasH View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustChris View Post
I'm not certain how many but in that test grouping doesn't ever car bar the Lotus have EPS?
The McLaren is hydraulic. Every McLaren is.

P.S. I've never yet driven *any* EPS car with acceptably good feedback from the wheel.
That's kind of harsh.. There are so many great cars out there with EPS, you should get out there and try them.

Plus, the steering response is quicker with EPS than hydraulic, which is a great benefit to a performance car.

Other than a lack of road feel, I don't see an issue with EPS, it seems like the natural evolution to an archaic part but they sure do get a bad rap in the enthusiast world.
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      11-13-2019, 09:13 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
Yep, I agree -- have owned several S2000s and it boggles my mind that Honda figured out EPS all those years ago and BMW still struggles with it. The S2000 was one of the earliest production vehicles to have EPS and it was good from the beginning.

I do think BMW is getting better. The G-generation vehicles have much improved steering feel and lost a lot of the numbness that plagued earlier generations. The EPS in my X3 M40i is noticeably better than the setup in my M2C.
The placebo effect is alive and well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
That's kind of harsh.. There are so many great cars out there with EPS, you should get out there and try them.

Plus, the steering response is quicker with EPS than hydraulic, which is a great benefit to a performance car.

Other than a lack of road feel, I don't see an issue with EPS, it seems like the natural evolution to an archaic part but they sure do get a bad rap in the enthusiast world.
Dude, the loss of road feel is exactly what miss about the older systems.

I'm not saying we should cling on to every old technology but maybe you should try one of the older Porsche systems and see what's been recently missing.


And the quickness of the rack has nothing to do with the type of assistance.
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      11-13-2019, 12:22 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
The placebo effect is alive and well.



Dude, the loss of road feel is exactly what miss about the older systems.

I'm not saying we should cling on to every old technology but maybe you should try one of the older Porsche systems and see what's been recently missing.


And the quickness of the rack has nothing to do with the type of assistance.
There are a lot of benefits to EPS - reduced weight, no hydraulic fluid to boil on track, lower servicing requirements, increased efficiency. Sure road feel is reduced but I suspect people have rose tinted spectacles about hydraulic power steering. I'll be picking up my M2C on Saturday so I can compare back to back with my E90 M3.
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      11-13-2019, 12:53 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
There are a lot of benefits to EPS - reduced weight, no hydraulic fluid to boil on track, lower servicing requirements, increased efficiency. Sure road feel is reduced but I suspect people have rose tinted spectacles about hydraulic power steering. I'll be picking up my M2C on Saturday so I can compare back to back with my E90 M3.


I prefer the steering feel of my M2C over my old E92 M3!
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      11-13-2019, 12:55 PM   #81
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Personally - the roads are such crap in the Chicago Metro area, I don't want to feel them.
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      11-13-2019, 02:07 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post


I prefer the steering feel of my M2C over my old E92 M3!
same her

i prefer the feel on my M2C better than my e90 M3
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      11-13-2019, 06:53 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
The placebo effect is alive and well.
Not sure what you mean by that but driving these cars back to back on the same roads day to day, it's obvious there have been improvements. And I have owned a couple model F-generation cars including F32 coupes before and after the 2018 LCI where BMW made changes to the steering. They are getting better, but when I put all of this together, I can tell the F87 is still using a previous generation EPS system. It's vague/loose on center, which is a hallmark of the pre-2018 EPS systems. None of them are as good as the last hydraulic BMW I owned (2011 model), but the EPS has definitely improved as of late, whereby improved means "less awful" or "tolerable".

What we still don't have with BMW EPS is a feel for the front tires under cornering loads. Used to be you would get some self-straightening resistance back from the tires in turns and you'd feel when the tires were losing bite. The EPS motors pretty much isolate that from the driver. You could saw at the wheel and not really feel what the tires are doing. You mainly just feel what the car is doing.
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      11-14-2019, 03:34 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post
same her

i prefer the feel on my M2C better than my e90 M3
E92 steering felt a bit artificial to me, not bad but doesnít feel like Z4M or E46, and none of those cars have steering as good as a 997.
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      11-14-2019, 11:09 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
E92 steering felt a bit artificial to me, not bad but doesnít feel like Z4M or E46, and none of those cars have steering as good as a 997.
Exactly.

E36 was slightly better perhaps than E46 ZHP (best E46 system), E90 was significantly worse, F80 with good alignment and plates is a little worse than E90, and none of them are even half as good as a 997 or 986 etc.

I usually see comments about how good their E46 steering was, or their E90, but unless you've driven an older Porsche, or Elise, or similar, you really have no basis for assessment. The difference really is that much.

For example, my X3 has hydraulic steering but it isn't better than the F80. Just because it's hydraulic doesn't mean it's good.


It was interesting that to me, driving a stock M2C back to back with my M3 (ZCP, stock wheels, camber plates with -2.6 degrees), the M2 felt worse - too light with little feedback around the straight ahead. I'm not an expert but I believe a good alignment can get an EPS to feel a bit more natural, the way it loads and unloads in the corners.
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      Yesterday, 04:27 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
What we still don't have with BMW EPS is a feel for the front tires under cornering loads. Used to be you would get some self-straightening resistance back from the tires in turns and you'd feel when the tires were losing bite. The EPS motors pretty much isolate that from the driver. You could saw at the wheel and not really feel what the tires are doing. You mainly just feel what the car is doing.
This is a good assessment. Allow me to add...

The M2C has great steering precision, as well as great steering response from the chassis. No doubt about this.

However, in the M2C, as cornering limits are approached, the feeling of the front tires losing grip is communicated more by the chassis, rather than through fine indications transmitted through the steering wheel, as great hydraulic steering systems certainly accomplished.
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      Yesterday, 05:06 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natmad View Post
However, in the M2C, as cornering limits are approached, the feeling of the front tires losing grip is communicated more by the chassis, rather than through fine indications transmitted through the steering wheel, as great hydraulic steering systems certainly accomplished.
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