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      11-06-2019, 07:26 PM   #23
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Seems like the M2C is in a bit of a no mans land area in this test. There's not much else that's compares against it. It's not as expensive or fast as the Porsche, Corvette, Lotus, and more adaptable at being daily driven. It really is a Goldilocks of the group IMO.
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      11-06-2019, 07:59 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raymix View Post
"BMW M2 Competition suffers some of the Supra’s pitfalls, despite clocking an impressive 1:26.91. With 405 hp, the 3600-pound M2 is far from slow, but BMW seems to have worked hard to isolate the driver. All that hustle occurs through a cotton filter. The steering is light and vague. The extra grunt and suspension stiffness over the discontinued, 365-hp base M2 are part of a wholesale trade, exchanging a bit of that car’s talk for straight-line speed and a willingness to drift." Road and Track
My impressions too, as an owner of an N55, but having driven several M2Cs with the S55 and tweaked suspension (even if BMW denies it).

Thinking the M2CS might be the best of both worlds.

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      11-06-2019, 10:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raymix View Post
EPS still can't match the feeling of hydraulic steering.
Hmmm. Porsche seems to have figured it out. My 981 EPS feedback is pretty good and waay better than my M2.
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      11-06-2019, 11:12 PM   #26
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Hmmm. Porsche seems to have figured it out. My 981 EPS feedback is pretty good and waay better than my M2.
I disagree. Porsche even stated following the 991 launch that hydraulic steering had what they called "negative" feedback which they deemed "unnecessary." That "negative" feedback is what we enjoy.

Every Porsche I've driven since their switch to EPS has precise and somewhat weighted steering, but it's a far cry from how communicative and stiff the hydraulic racks were. I cannot speak to the very high end Turbo, GT4, etc. models.
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      11-06-2019, 11:16 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raymix View Post
I guess that's the reason why they prefer the steering feeling of 1M. EPS still can't match the feeling of hydraulic steering.
It's not even close. The M2's steering is good enough for me, but it's still the main weak point of the car. My simple E90 provides me more smiles than a lot of high end modern cars.
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      11-06-2019, 11:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
Hmmm. Porsche seems to have figured it out. My 981 EPS feedback is pretty good and waay better than my M2.
I disagree. They even stated following the 991 launch that hydraulic steering had what they called "negative" feedback which they deemed "unnecessary."

Every Porsche I've driven since the switch to EPS has precise and somewhat weighted steering, but it's a far cry from how communicative and stiff the hydraulic racks were. I cannot speak to the very high end Turbo, GT4, etc. models.
My GT4 is pretty good compared to my M2. Just my opinion. Based on driving them both regularly.
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      11-06-2019, 11:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
My GT4 is pretty good compared to my M2. Just my opinion. Based on driving them both regularly.
You know what I misread earlier. I thought you said compared to the 1M. Wonderful garage btw.

How does the GT4 feel compared to a Cayman S?
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      11-06-2019, 11:28 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
My GT4 is pretty good compared to my M2. Just my opinion. Based on driving them both regularly.
You know what I misread earlier. I thought you said compared to the 1M. Wonderful garage btw.

How does the GT4 feel compared to a Cayman S?
I had a 135is and it too was better than the M2 from what I recall. Can't speak to the Cayman S. Never drove one. All this said, I don't think the M2 is bad. Rather it was a step backwards from the 1 series.
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      11-06-2019, 11:44 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by raymix View Post
EPS still can't match the feeling of hydraulic steering.
Hmmm. Porsche seems to have figured it out. My 981 EPS feedback is pretty good and waay better than my M2.
Porsche is the pinnacle for which all other EPS is held to IMO. That being said, it doesn't hold a matchstick to the best HPS. It can still be better. We have to accept the way EPS as it is now. Companies aren't going back to HPS, ever. The problem is that steering feel is so subjective and that not many people agree. We're in the minority as enthusiasts too.
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      11-06-2019, 11:56 PM   #32
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It's all good, change the suspension and add some 4S tires. Should be good.
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      11-07-2019, 12:32 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Porsche is the pinnacle for which all other EPS is held to IMO. That being said, it doesn't hold a matchstick to the best HPS. It can still be better. We have to accept the way EPS as it is now. Companies aren't going back to HPS, ever. The problem is that steering feel is so subjective and that not many people agree. We're in the minority as enthusiasts too.
This is the unfortunate truth. If Porsche is as good as EPS gets than that's somewhat of a letdown.

My dad just picked up a Macan S. I'm visiting and have been driving it a lot. The steering really doesn't feel much different from the Boxsters, Caymans, and Cayennes I've driven. Very good in terms of precision and going fast through turns, but otherwise meh. On center deadness abound. I've read this about the Panamera and Taycan as well. I do hear the 992 is better, but will have to see for myself.
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      11-07-2019, 04:18 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
If only they knew it is the same suspension, steering rack, etc. Sometimes I think these journalists look for differences that don’t exist.
Bingo!
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      11-07-2019, 04:28 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Porsche is the pinnacle for which all other EPS is held to IMO. That being said, it doesn't hold a matchstick to the best HPS. It can still be better. We have to accept the way EPS as it is now. Companies aren't going back to HPS, ever. The problem is that steering feel is so subjective and that not many people agree. We're in the minority as enthusiasts too.
I hate the EPS on my m2 and it's really a shame because I also have a Honda S2000 and its day and night

Honda did this EPS back in 1999 and it's better than any modern eps that I drove
So EPS can be good you just need to copy Honda for once
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      11-07-2019, 05:10 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
I had a 135is and it too was better than the M2 from what I recall. Can't speak to the Cayman S. Never drove one. All this said, I don't think the M2 is bad. Rather it was a step backwards from the 1 series.
I thought all of the E87 and E9x steering racks were artificially heavy and didn't really compare that well to the E46 M3 ZCP and Z4M steering. If M2 owners are saying it's worse than the 135is steering then I'm not super impressed.

Now, I had no complaints at all when driving M2 or M4 ZCP at M school and in my test drives (M2C), but I think steering feel is something that takes a bit of time to figure out.

I did drive a first gen Panamera Turbo and its steering feel was IMO better than every BMW I have driven except E36 M3, E46 M3, and Z4M.
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      11-07-2019, 05:12 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Bingo!
Yes, humans are easily fooled and prone to a lot of cognitive biases. BMW marketing feeds them stuff that hasn't changed (like the rear subframe is a solid mount) and they wax poetically about the differences.
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      11-07-2019, 05:17 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I disagree. Porsche even stated following the 991 launch that hydraulic steering had what they called "negative" feedback which they deemed "unnecessary." That "negative" feedback is what we enjoy.

Every Porsche I've driven since their switch to EPS has precise and somewhat weighted steering, but it's a far cry from how communicative and stiff the hydraulic racks were. I cannot speak to the very high end Turbo, GT4, etc. models.
Porsche might do the best EPS, but the best steering in any modern car I have personally driven was a 997.1 C2S. I doubt they have reached that level again.

I am actually incredibly impressed with how good the steering feedback is on these EPS. It's basically the fancy equivalent of a driving sim wheel with force feedback.
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      11-07-2019, 06:48 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado1M View Post
I think he's saying it's faster...but, more numb with regards to feel than the outgoing M2
If only they knew it is the same suspension, steering rack, etc. Sometimes I think these journalists look for differences that don’t exist.
Would heavier un-sprung weight make a difference in feel? Doesn't the M2C have a significantly heavier wheel and
brake combo than the M2?
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      11-07-2019, 07:20 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by werdn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by COChris View Post
M2 and M2C are EPS. 1M has hydraulic steering.
Why did auto manufacturers move to electric steering? Does it save weight or free up a lot more space in the engine bay?
Saves weight, frees up space, less costs to manufacture/source materials, easier (in theory) to maintain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by werdn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by COChris View Post
M2 and M2C are EPS. 1M has hydraulic steering.
Why did auto manufacturers move to electric steering? Does it save weight or free up a lot more space in the engine bay?
Saves weight, frees up space, less costs to manufacture/source materials, easier (in theory) to maintain.
And...

Also heard it's safer not having a spear/steering rod pointed at your chest...
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      11-07-2019, 07:54 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by werdn View Post
Why did auto manufacturers move to electric steering? Does it save weight or free up a lot more space in the engine bay?
In addition to fuel savings, it’s more about the ability for EPS to support assisted driving features, which are quickly becoming a ‘must have’ option with some buyers. You can’t have two different steering designs on a ‘volume’ platform like the 2er/3er.
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      11-07-2019, 08:19 AM   #42
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I can't say that I'm surprised at the car that they seemed to enjoy the most.
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      11-07-2019, 08:32 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supralex View Post
I hate the EPS on my m2 and it's really a shame because I also have a Honda S2000 and its day and night

Honda did this EPS back in 1999 and it's better than any modern eps that I drove
So EPS can be good you just need to copy Honda for once
But isn't that old Honda system a hydraulic system with an electric pump?

Ie electro-hydraulic? So it will feel like a regular hydraulic system.

Full EPS is electric motor driven only.
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      11-07-2019, 08:44 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011zx10R View Post
And...

Also heard it's safer not having a spear/steering rod pointed at your chest...
It still has a steering column directly connected to the rack. The rack is just electrically assisted instead of hydraulically assisted. It's not steer by wire.

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=32_2478
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